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OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done

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Post#261 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:49 pm by CanadaBucks

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Post#262 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:20 pm by SpursNBucks

paulpressey25 wrote:Bogut isn't a bust. He's just a disappointment relative to where picked.


Accurate. I actually thought that he should have been an All-Star in 2009/10. Because of his Croatian/Australian background his fan base was much bigger then it would have been otherwise - a lot of Bucks posters here started following the Bucks for that sole reason. Because of that I think he was actually a little over-rated (on here and caused a massive hate towards the Bucks organization when he was traded - thinking they should have netted much more. I didn't see it- not injured/with the injury history. People forget even when he was out there playing the last few years he was almost always grimacing with pain-that or he had to take a really bad crap- same look. I think the double duty some of those years of playing in the NBA and for Team Australia may have taken its toll? I also thing that whoever was involved in a Bogut trade was going to be denigrated beyond what they deserved- I think that has happened with Monta Ellis. That has pretty much been my belief since I started posting on here at the end of last season.
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Post#263 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:36 am by Lippo

Plus the fact that his level of play was 2x better in games for Australia than it was for the Bucks, led to to believe he didn't care as much for his NBA teammates, and they were not worth it to him.
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Post#264 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:32 am by Stopshere2

PP and SpursNBucks, you've been about as fair as I've seen the both of you towards Bogut. Yes, he has been a disappointment as a #1. Not a bust but nowhere near what we all expected after he cleaned up the college awards as a sophomore.

I was staggered watching his first few games, completely dismayed at his panace on offence and his lack of rudimentary moves. It didn't help that he was asked to play PF next to Big Cat, one of those rebound stealing, post-dominating black holes. The fact that Bogut showed he was nothing like a stretch four and was a bit light for the five also didn't help. His motor seemed a bit suspect, too.

Bogut lost his jumpshot somewhere between Utah and Milwaukee which was probably more to do with NBA opponents' closeout speeds and them being much, much taller than his college days in the mountains. I credit Skiles with telling him at some point, "you're 7' tall, go out and block some damned shots!" He also said, "ummm, pass the ball to someone who can shoot on offence, you clean up the garbage." That was working very nicely and Bogut even got the confidence to be a focal point on offence in 2009.

Unfortunately, once he'd been hit by the injury bus in 2008-09, it kept reversing over him. He was at a turning point in 2009-10 with an allstar 16/10 and 2.5 blocks when Amare's nudge tipped the balance of his career. He came back as the same defensive force but what he'd mustered in the way of offence was gone. In 2010-11 he still averaged 13//11 but there were players in the league shooting a better percentage from the arc, and I mean above his FT%. Once more, he was granted the injury excuse lifeline that this board continually threw to him, fair and reasonable as it was.

After he managed just 12 games in 2011-12 before yet another devastating injury, all things considered, the Monta trade was a good thing and I agree that Bucks won the trade. Putting aside loyalties, etc, Bogut was holding the franchise down after the 2010 injury which is why I've said before that the trade was good for both parties. He'd somewhat inveigled his way into an unmovable status via his #1 pick and Squad 6. He'd seen off coaches yet things didn't improve. Teams were supposedly built for him but the success was still elusive. Suffering terrible injuries 3 out of 4 seasons will do that.

Very few would disagree that the 2009-10 Bogut was what we'd hoped for. Wipe out the significant injuries and he'd still be the franchise player. He's now GSW's to resurrect and good luck to them. The curtain hasn't closed on his career but I reckon they've turned up the lights so he can see the exit. In the meantime, the Bucks are playing with a youthful, devil may care attitude and are entertaining the hell out of us. Monta is fun and will pull a decent contract elsewhere after his midwest stint. No matter who won the trade, the biggest difference is Gooden is not on the active list. Actually, if Gooden wasn't on the team, I bet Bogut doesn't even go down (/retroactive excuse).
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Post#265 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:54 pm by Run-MKE 311

So glad this is not our problem anymore...

Bogut had a heart of gold and did a lot for our loyal fans here in MKE, but if I had to deal with another season of "will he" or "won't he" my head would have exploded. His game never developed at the rate I would have liked to see offensively, especially as a #1 overall pick. He played solid D and was an ace at taking charges (although that is part of the reason his back is toast) but that was not enough to keep him around.

With him and Redd finally gone, I have a whole new lease on my energy with the Bucks.
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Post#266 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:12 pm by SpursNBucks

Stopshere2 wrote:PP and SpursNBucks, you've been about as fair as I've seen the both of you towards Bogut.


Thanks,
I liked the guy, but you have to be objective. I think a lot of the fans forget some of the things Bogut failed to bring (even when 100%) that caused him to be a "disappointment" for where he was selected. I lived in the same building as Bogut- and was probably the first person to shake his hand and welcome him to Milwaukee when he first moved in- he was a bit shy, but friendly. Later on I would see him with his hoodie pulled over his face in the elevator - and he drove a brand new GTO kind of erratic- so you had to watch out in the parking structure if he was circling up. I remember having a talk with him in the parking area about muscle cars (passion we both shared)- he stopped and commented on my '68 Fastback Mustang. I had a lot more fun with Braun, Fielder, and YoGo when they were residents- especially Prince and Yogo - who would bring their families to the building events/parties.

I wish Bogut the best- that was a standup thing he did with the Squad 6. He may just need to take the full year off - regroup, rehab, and recharge.
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Post#267 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:29 pm by EastSideBucksFan

ummm, what?

Bogut had microfracture surgery?

Andrew Bogut continues to work his way back from offseason ankle surgery.

"Well, over the last five days, I've had some Regenokine, which is an injection basically of my own blood," said Bogut. "They take out my blood, they spin it, and they put it back into my ankle. So hopefully that can solve the swelling issues that I'm having and subside some of the pain. Hopefully by the weekend I can start some light jogging again and work it back up, and see how we go."

Bogut hasn't played since Nov. 7.

"It was a microfracture surgery, which is something that most players take 12 months to get over. I'm not saying it's gonna take me 12 months, but ... just because someone says you're out six months, it doesn't mean that in six months and one day you're ready to go full speed in the NBA. That's just not realistic. Hopefully another week or two and I can be back out there and not have any more hiccups for the rest of the season, but at the same time, if I'm not ready in a week or two, we're going to have to re-evaluate again."


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Post#268 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:14 pm by Buck You

Lippo wrote:Plus the fact that his level of play was 2x better in games for Australia than it was for the Bucks, led to to believe he didn't care as much for his NBA teammates, and they were not worth it to him.

Or just the competition level is completely different.
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Post#269 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:13 pm by AussieBuck

Buck You wrote:
Lippo wrote:Plus the fact that his level of play was 2x better in games for Australia than it was for the Bucks, led to to believe he didn't care as much for his NBA teammates, and they were not worth it to him.

Or just the competition level is completely different.

Bogut was pretty much the same guy except he had 3 point range for Australia. :D
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Post#270 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:44 pm by paulpressey25

EastSideBucksFan wrote:ummm, what?

Bogut had microfracture surgery?


This is a pretty big bombshell. Of course no one ever asked him what type of surgery he specifically had on the ankle.

Just so you guys understand what this is, basically if there is an area in a joint that has no cartilage anymore and you are rubbing bone on bone (like Brandon Roy's or Greg Oden's knees), the surgeon drills tiny holes in the bone (the microfractures). These tiny holes then scar up creating scar tissue which hopefully will then act as a cartilage replacement.

I only put this explanation in here because a lot of media and laypeople hear the term and think somehow the person's bone is fractured and won't ever be solid again.

I had not heard of them using microfracture on an ankle joint. Most of the prior use of this procedure had been knee related although it makes sense for other joints. Yeah, this is going to take him a good year to sort out and hopefully get back to normal. Part of the big problem with microfracture is that you can't go weight bearing for a long period of time while the scar tissue is allowed to form. And then afterwards you have to go easy on it with rehab. What happens for a lot of guys is that inability to weight bear for so long makes one side atrophy while the other leg ends up taking a lot of pressure on it. Takes a long time for the body and muscles to re-equalize.
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Post#271 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:26 pm by paul

Buck You wrote:
Lippo wrote:Plus the fact that his level of play was 2x better in games for Australia than it was for the Bucks, led to to believe he didn't care as much for his NBA teammates, and they were not worth it to him.

Or just the competition level is completely different.


Yeah, you don't want to get into it with him lol.

EastSideBucksFan wrote:ummm, what?

Bogut had microfracture surgery?



He'd said all along the surgery was far more extensive than expected, though didn't specifically label it. Does a pretty good job of explaining the extended layoff though.
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Post#272 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:47 pm by paulpressey25

paul wrote:He'd said all along the surgery was far more extensive than expected, though didn't specifically label it. Does a pretty good job of explaining the extended layoff though.



If I were a Warriors fan, I'd be pretty livid though that the team didn't come right out last May and explain what happened and put together a realistic timetable for the fans. It also would have helped Bogut not feel the pressure of having to try and return early and forcing him to conceal it.

If this thing had been labeled microfracture from the start, we would have had about a 20 page thread on our board back in May and a 20 page thread on the Warriors board. But afterwards everyone would have let the recovery period run the proper process and timetable without all the drama.

We've all seen the Bucks conceal injuries to keep selling tickets. Looks like the Warriors went over the top with this one. They probably sold a few extra tickets but most reporters covering the team should inquire about why the organization wasn't upfront with them.
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Post#273 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:56 pm by paul

I guess, but they did say it was extremely extensive surgery.

As it's turned out he played a bit early before taking a couple of weeks to get some more strength in the joint (I think at least partially because the 20mpg was really restrictive to him to be worth risking injury) and now is looking like being close to 100% for the start of December - it's not like they were 6 months off or something.

I get what you're saying, I just think him missing a couple of weeks early without having a setback on the ankle has been a bit overblown on our board by a few people pretty hopeful that he never plays well again. It's always a big IF with Bogut, but if he comes back strong and stays relatively healthy these past few weeks a going to seem a very very minor blip on the radar to that franchise in a month or two.
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Post#274 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:01 pm by paulpressey25

To the point about being upfront, check out this NBA.com story from last April. Here they are saying it is a routine scope and he'll only be out six weeks.

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/04/22/warr ... index.html

Bogut broke his left ankle on Jan. 25 against Houston before coming over in a trade from Milwaukee. Riley called the scope to clean up loose particles "routine" and ruled out any possibility the 7-foot (2.13-meter) center would play for Australia's Olympic team at London.

"After seeing a specialist I have decided it would be best to get my ankle cleaned out via arthroscopic surgery," Bogut said on Twitter.

"There is simply not enough time to rehab and be fully fit for the games.

In another tweet, he said: "Shattered thinking about missing the 2012 Olympics. They truly are a life-changing experience and something that you will always remember."

Bogut, acquired in a trade with Milwaukee on March 13, could be back to basketball activities as soon as six weeks.

"I characterize it as something that is as much a preventive thing than anything else," Riley said of Bogut's surgery.


Now in fairness to Bogut, usually the docs don't know what they will encounter until they get in there with the scope. So the Doc likely saw a loose hanging piece of cartilage that he cut out and then micro-fractured with the hope of filling in the gap with micro-fracture scar tissue.

But after that surgery is when the team and Bogut should have come clean and said that a microfracture was performed and the timetable will be 6-12 months but that assuming the microfracture takes place, Bogut should be good to go once the recovery and rehab period is over. Again, I don't blame Bogut for not saying what happened. I'd guess the team said he needed to keep quiet about it.
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Post#275 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:10 pm by paul

Yeah they'd already said when the surgeon got in there the damage was much worse than expected so the surgery became more extensive - you're right though this is the first mention of 'microfracture', I'd guess because of the negative connotations attached to the term through guys like Oden.
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Post#276 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:18 pm by paulpressey25

paul wrote:Yeah they'd already said when the surgeon got in there the damage was much worse than expected so the surgery became more extensive - you're right though this is the first mention of 'microfracture', I'd guess because of the negative connotations attached to the term through guys like Oden.


Exactly. They knew the fans would hear microfracture and come down hard on the Warriors for the trade and you'd have some Warriors fans thinking that Bogut would never play again, blah, blah, blah.

But I also blame the Oakland/SF Warriors media here. Those guys should have pushed hard to have either Bogut or the doctors or preferably both talk about what took place after the surgery in a brief presser the week following or something.

Actually I wish the league would enforce something like that in all cases. Because as we saw with the Bucks, they'd never let on what type of surgery ever took place or what actually happened with any of their players. TJ Ford, Bobby, CV, some Bogut situations, etc. So then we'd have stories from the team about how Bobby Simmons hoped to return to action in a couple weeks while at the same time Bobby would tell Woelfel in the locker room that he was done for the year.

The league and fans would be far better served to have these surgical procedures discussed and disclosed upfront after the surgeries. That way everyone can operate on a level playing field.
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Post#277 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:05 pm by EvanZ

paulpressey25 wrote:But I also blame the Oakland/SF Warriors media here. Those guys should have pushed hard to have either Bogut or the doctors or preferably both talk about what took place after the surgery in a brief presser the week following or something.



I can't believe there's not a single beat writer following up on this news today.
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Post#278 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:23 am by paulpressey25

EvanZ wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:But I also blame the Oakland/SF Warriors media here. Those guys should have pushed hard to have either Bogut or the doctors or preferably both talk about what took place after the surgery in a brief presser the week following or something.



I can't believe there's not a single beat writer following up on this news today.


Sort of amazing isn't it? They don't even care about it on your board.

The microfracture surgery could have gone great. Or this could be something that causes him to have a much shortened career if it didn't take and the pain of bone on bone becomes too great.

Our writers here never followed up on any of the serious injuries our players had over the years. ESPN could use a top tier orthopod writer who would analyze injuries of all pro players and give outlooks based on what is known. Simmons and Grantland need to get on this.
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Post#279 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:39 am by Lucky Striker

When you are winning, you tend to not worry about the details too much.

If the Warriors go on an L-streak, they'll be more talk about Bogut.

To be honest, Klay filling in for Monta is a win in itself, as its elevated our team play and given Klay the opportunity to get better.

And having some good depth with J-Jack, Landry, D.Green, and two young rookies that have played great in Ezeli and Barnes makes the Bogut return not as big of a deal. We see him as icing on the cake when he comes back.
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Post#280 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:48 am by SkilesTheLimit

Haven't seen this posted here yet:

“California is a great place to live. My house is 20 minutes drive from Oakland and the climate is all I could wish for. I have everything here and I am enjoying it, 100 times better than Milwaukee,” said Bogut.

http://www.croatiaweek.com/nba-star-and ... -generals/

I'm not saying Milwaukee is a great place to live, but to throw the city in a quote unprompted like that sounds like sour grapes to me. You'd think the guy would be kissing the city's butt for allowing him to steal money from its NBA franchise through all his injuries...

Ironically, I'm 100x happier now that Bogut's out of Milwaukee. The guy was a bum. And a bust.
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