OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done

[Kerb Hohl]

I think Monta is a mostly negative value player and really hope we don't sign him but I'm really starting to wonder where all the criticism is regarding the trade.

I won't pat myself on the back too hard for slinging "trade Bogut now instead of waiting a year for his stock to (not) improve" ideas for the 2 years leading up to this trade, but I don't know what better package we would have gotten at the time we traded him.

Houston's package, if it really existed, could be better, could be worse. Paying Scola a lot would suck for that long and there was rumor they wouldn't take Jackson, which was a (stupid) directive from the Bucks.

I argued that we would never get good value for Bogut. Why?
-We wait for his value to improve and it gets worse. We sell for pennies on the dollar or let him rot on the bench with injury.
-We wait for his value to improve and it gets better. We likely do not trade him in that case but we foolishly parade him around as a franchise player.
-We wait for his value to improve and it stays the same. We're just wasting time and asking to move the deadline further out.

Every time it was discussed to trade him, it was like "not now brahs, his value is gonna go up!"

You guys got what you asked for. Actually, you guys should be thankful Hammond traded him when he did because his value has plummeted even lower since the trade.

[europa]

We could of gotten a better return for now and in the future...

This really is just speculation that is often repeated here as fact. I don't think anyone really has concrete evidence that the Bucks could have made a significantly better trade for Bogut.

The Warriors offered Curry instead of Ellis. Who you like more is up to you but there's absolutely evidence to support the statement the Bucks could have done better - assuming you believe Curry carries more value or you believe the Warriors wanted Bogut so badly Hammond and the Bucks could have negotiated a better deal had they simply put forward the effort.

All water under the bridge at this point. The Bucks exchanged one dilemma (Bogut's health) for another (Ellis). I do agree there's more to this story than we've seen thus far.

[crkone]

You lose your fast break dominance with either of those two. Both are catch and shoot players which then leaves Jennings in the bind he has been in his entire career... The guy getting all the pressure. Even if Monta plays like crap, teams are always going to have to respect his presence. Jennings is looking to have a career year and a lot can be attributed to the fact he doesn't have to create the entire offense for everyone any more. Steph Curry for 3 years has benefited from this same setup. Now he has great shooters surrounding him, he's the main distributor (getting the same amount of assists), and is shooting 37%. We all know he is the golden boy of advanced stats and his suck right now. The two attacking guard situation is not ideal in anyway, but if executed properly, it could cause nightmares for other teams. I just don't think the Bucks are good enough to play the traditional type of basketball and win with Afflalo or Wesley as it will effect Jennings negatively on offense, IMO.

Must have missed this. Great post. And spot on. It sure seems like a lot of the folks who constantly blast Monta's shooting % are the same folks that criticize others for drawing conclusions and opinions from box scores. A bit hypocritical if you ask me.

I don't agree with his reasoning. It's not like we are a juggernaut on offense right now.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

You lose your fast break dominance with either of those two. Both are catch and shoot players which then leaves Jennings in the bind he has been in his entire career... The guy getting all the pressure. Even if Monta plays like crap, teams are always going to have to respect his presence. Jennings is looking to have a career year and a lot can be attributed to the fact he doesn't have to create the entire offense for everyone any more. Steph Curry for 3 years has benefited from this same setup. Now he has great shooters surrounding him, he's the main distributor (getting the same amount of assists), and is shooting 37%. We all know he is the golden boy of advanced stats and his suck right now. The two attacking guard situation is not ideal in anyway, but if executed properly, it could cause nightmares for other teams. I just don't think the Bucks are good enough to play the traditional type of basketball and win with Afflalo or Wesley as it will effect Jennings negatively on offense, IMO.

Must have missed this. Great post. And spot on. It sure seems like a lot of the folks who constantly blast Monta's shooting % are the same folks that criticize others for drawing conclusions and opinions from box scores. A bit hypocritical if you ask me.

I don't agree with his reasoning. It's not like we are a juggernaut on offense right now.

our pace makes us decent tho. without that we'd suck like we always have

[Nebula1]

I also thought about when we dealt for Dave Cowens. Granted Cowens was 34 at the time and came out of retirement.

Why would anyone want to intentionally remember that? What a God awful freaking amazingly stupid ridiculously idiotic trade. I hated that trade with the intensity of a thousand suns.

What up Europa! Haven't seen you post in awhile (but I can't read the board everyday anymore).

Good to see you around still.

[europa]

I also thought about when we dealt for Dave Cowens. Granted Cowens was 34 at the time and came out of retirement.

Why would anyone want to intentionally remember that? What a God awful freaking amazingly stupid ridiculously idiotic trade. I hated that trade with the intensity of a thousand suns.

What up Europa! Haven't seen you post in awhile (but I can't read the board everyday anymore).

Good to see you around still.

Thanks Neb. I haven't been posting much. Interest in the Bucks is at an all-time low for me. Still watching the games when I can but haven't seen all of them. Have some time to kill today so I thought I'd venture over here and check things out.

[Nebula1]

This is the first season I've looked forward to games in years. I really like this team even with Monta and we have the young guys playing finally. No Gooden or Bogut has really changed the team's dynamic. The Bucks are finally running again..

Hope you can find the time to stick around as we make our march the the ECF... Larry Sanders as DPOY? Probably.

[europa]

Larry Sanders as DPOY? Probably.

It's great to see Sanders playing so well. He made big strides last season so I was looking forward to seeing if he could progress even more this year. So far he has.

[Nebula1]

Larry Sanders as DPOY? Probably.

It's great to see Sanders playing so well. He made big strides last season so I was looking forward to seeing if he could progress even more this year. So far he has.

And Tobias is getting better and Henson looks like a contributor. Personally I think Brandon looks really great and the Bucks need to lock him up. Moving Bogut and adding a season of maturity has really opened up this team and they appear to have good chemistry.

The Bucks are a young shooting guard away from being really exciting to watch grow into the future.

That said, I hold personal caution with Kohl looming. I assume a sale is coming sooner than later.

[Thunder Muscle]

Good Ol' Chuck.

http://blog.sfgate.com/warriors/2012/11 ... pipe-down/

Mark Jackson was on Rome yesterday too and had similar sentiments on Barkley but he definitely didn't like 100% say Bogut is going to be back. He just kept saying they're going to sit Andrew down and get him healthy to the point where he doesn't have to have limitations. Definitely didn't put a timetable on anything. He also had good things to say about Monta and that he is an alpha male of a locker room, which isn't bad, but needed to break him and Curry up was what he was getting at.

[gbmb34]

I'd honestly rather have Ellis than Curry.

The biggest problem I have is people killing Hammond for not dealing Redd before he got hurt and became an albatross are the same people who were against the Bogut trade.

I was against the trade when it first happened, and I still don't like Monta, but it was time to move on, save some cash and try a different mix.

I'd have rather seen a different player than Ellis coming back, but I have seen nothing to suggest the Bucks could've done much better. Maybe Martin and a 1st? but I'd rather have Ellis.

The Bucks got about 80 cents on the dollar for Bogut IMO. If they traded him now they would get 65 cents. There my not be a time when Bogut approaches 80 cents of his former value again. If that ends up being true, the Bucks will win the trade.

[paulpressey25]

Last May when it became known Bogut would have more surgery and be out at least six more months, his value dropped to about 25 cents on the dollar, where it is today.

We may not see his market value ever come close to 80 cents on the dollar anymore. Partly because of health. Partly because he becomes a FA after next year.

[Thunder Muscle]

My biggest beef with people against the trade are the ones that act like they absolutely knew there were other much better offers on the table. I'm guessing 99% don't know what truly was offered and I'm not even convinced guys like Woelful really know either. Maybe there was a better better offer, maybe not. But there are so many that just concretely say we took the worse offer. Well do you REALLY know what was offered? And at least we got a legit scorer in return, a solid young defensive big man, and got rid of that idiot SJax in the process. Until I'm presented with something that concretely proves we had a better offer, I'm not going to hate the deal. And I'm not a big Curry guy, so even if it were Ellis or Curry, I'd probably would've taken Ellis. And I understand that is each person's choice.

[SpursNBucks]

The only positive is that Monta brings is that Jennings plays better without having the pressure to be the man every night. As far as Monta own performance...

KEY point- kind of with a jab back at Monta. Monta is not shooting the ball efficiently- that will probably change some. If you have a problem with him- you should have much more of one with Ersan. Monta has brought a dynamic to the team with Jennings- the combination of two guards who can both handle/pass the ball with that kind of speed has created problems for opposing defenses. Also, he has shown very good effort on defense. Some of this doesn't show up in the box score, but if you watch the games it does.

[paulpressey25]

Oh my...Kobe's BALCO

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nb ... e/1707823/

[ampd]

You lose your fast break dominance with either of those two. Both are catch and shoot players which then leaves Jennings in the bind he has been in his entire career... The guy getting all the pressure. Even if Monta plays like crap, teams are always going to have to respect his presence. Jennings is looking to have a career year and a lot can be attributed to the fact he doesn't have to create the entire offense for everyone any more. Steph Curry for 3 years has benefited from this same setup. Now he has great shooters surrounding him, he's the main distributor (getting the same amount of assists), and is shooting 37%. We all know he is the golden boy of advanced stats and his suck right now. The two attacking guard situation is not ideal in anyway, but if executed properly, it could cause nightmares for other teams. I just don't think the Bucks are good enough to play the traditional type of basketball and win with Afflalo or Wesley as it will effect Jennings negatively on offense, IMO.

Must have missed this. Great post. And spot on. It sure seems like a lot of the folks who constantly blast Monta's shooting % are the same folks that criticize others for drawing conclusions and opinions from box scores. A bit hypocritical if you ask me.

I don't agree with his reasoning. It's not like we are a juggernaut on offense right now.

Afflalo and Matthews don't prevent you from playing at a faster pace. They also reduce the opponent's efficiency especially in the half court.

They also take the 'ceiling' off the team's development by improving the Bucks in the half court (right now there are no catch and shoot players in the starting lineup).

Matthews averages 16 ppg right now on higher efficiency, we would only need Tobes to score 2 more baskets than he already does (or get 1 basket better on defense and Tobes to shoulder 1 more make).

Jennings was already playing at an improved level last season before Monta got here, and really nothing has changed except occasionally Monta takes some of Jennings shots away at an even less efficient rate (since coming to the Bucks).

The thing Monta does add is a very good passing SG that does increase the efficiency and effectiveness of our bigs. Neither Matthews or Afflalo would be able to do that, so we'd have to rely a bit more on them to shoot and on Tobes in the post. I think overall we probably become a better team, especially in terms of abiilty to grow in future seasons, and in ability to match up with good teams in the playoffs.

[Sigra]

I like him as much as anybody. Unselfish big who plays defense and had Kukoc as his role model? I mean cmon.

But he is almost done indeed. As I said before I doubt he ever play more than 50 games in season again. There will always be something. His work discipline (or luck of it), his body limitations (white, heavy), his careless moves (in the heat of moment) and his lack of playing are terrible combination. He is never going to be same again.

[JayMKE]

Of course there were better deals out there for Bogut. The point of the Bogut trade was so we could compete for the playoffs that year, maybe this was the best deal to achieve that goal even tho we ultimately finished 9th. Obviously that goal was misguided to say the least.

I thought it was time to move Bogut but it was a bad trade and we could of done better. Trading for Monta Ellis is a bad move no matter what you give up to get him since he's a career loser player just like Corey Maggette and Drew Gooden.

[jeremyd236]

Why were there "of course" better deals for Bogut? Bogut is injured and still not playing, also don't forget that Stephen Jackson was attached to that trade (and at the time, he was thought to be a negative asset with his contract).

We got a career fringe All-Star and a big with upside. You're hating just to hate at this point.

[JayMKE]

It doesn't matter what Bogut does after the trade, it has no effect on what already happen on March 13, 2012.

And yea, I am aware that part of trade was dumping Stephen Jackson. I'm so glad that our wonderful GM traded for that turd to begin with, who could of predicted that wouldn't of worked out besides everyone in the universe?