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OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done

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Post#226 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:40 pm by jeremyd236

ampd wrote:
jeremyd236 wrote:
Rockmaninoff wrote:Going forward, would you guys rather have Ellis or Redick? Neither is obviously an option, but if you had to choose, which would it be. Keep in mind that Redick is in the final year of his contract, and will likely get more than the MLE on his next deal.


It's posts like this that make me sick. Has the Ellis hate seriously reached the point to where we're debating between him and Reddick? Do you honestly believe the Bucks are a better team if you just eliminate Monta from our roster? Has it really come to that? Wow.


Reddick would be someone who could replace Dunleavy as our bench shooter, but I don't want him as a starting SG.


I agree. It makes sense to compare Dunleavy and Redick. But Ellis and Redick?
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Post#227 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:21 pm by ComeBackRay34

In the end, I think the Bogut-Ellis trade will be an even trade, but disappointing for the Bucks because they could have traded Bogut for something centered around either a youth/rebuild movement or a long-term player who fits better next to Jennings. The Bucks success of the trade will come from salary-relief and possibly one playoff run. I don't think Ellis stays past this year (hope he doesn't stay longer), and in the end, I think Udoh's impact will be minimal due to the amount of other PF's we have. On another team, who needed frontcourt help, he would have a bigger impact. Warriors got a center who can improve defense in any games he CAN play in and I think Barnes is a plus that came from that trade as well.

At this point, I think Ellis hasn’t impacted the Bucks too much so far as changing where we stand in the East. We should be a playoff team based on the fact that the East is pretty poorsome. This year will show if he makes this team better as far as record goes. Because so far, this is the Bucks record with Ellis against winning/losing teams.

2011-2012: Winning Teams= 1-8 Losing Teams= 11-1 Total=12-9 (Didn't play in 2 final losses against Phi/Bos)
2012-2013: Winning Teams= 2-2 Losing Teams= 3-0 Total=5-2
Total Record with Ellis: 17-11 (14-1 against losing teams. Milwaukee: We can't say that we're better than most, we're just not as bad as some)

For him to have a significant impact, I think the Bucks have to prove this year that they can beat good teams as well as bad teams. I think that how we play against teams from the West will be a good determinant for the Bucks this year. If we can’t beat the good teams, we looking to be slightly better than .500 with the same direction we had before the trade. And I think the direction (or lack-there-of) the Bucks took in the Bogut-Ellis trade still has me more upset than Ellis himself (although watching Ellis play at times can be maddening).
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Post#228 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:59 pm by ampd

Last season's record against above .500 teams was with Gooden starting at C. If there is a reason for long term optimism with this model, its that we are no longer doing that plus the emergence of Larry Sanders.

I also don't see it as a bad thing or even a bad sign that we have obliterated the under .500 teams we have played. I can accept that we are a middling team if there is a path to improvement in place. With us I think there is, between Jennings, Harris, Henson, Sanders, Udoh, Lamb.
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Post#229 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:20 pm by Rockmaninoff

jeremyd236 wrote:
ampd wrote:
jeremyd236 wrote:
It's posts like this that make me sick. Has the Ellis hate seriously reached the point to where we're debating between him and Reddick? Do you honestly believe the Bucks are a better team if you just eliminate Monta from our roster? Has it really come to that? Wow.


Reddick would be someone who could replace Dunleavy as our bench shooter, but I don't want him as a starting SG.


I agree. It makes sense to compare Dunleavy and Redick. But Ellis and Redick?


:lol:

Why would it make you sick? I never clearly advocated for either player and I never said anything directly disparaging about Ellis. I don't consider comparing Ellis to Redick as being an insult to Ellis.

You obviously didn't click the link. If you had, you would see that Redick is getting starter minutes. In starter minutes, Redick has a .613 TS and he has similar assist rates to Ellis. Both players have the same defensive weaknesses. Ellis is higher usage, gets to the line a little more, and is a slightly better ball thief.

I wouldn't compare Dunleavy to Redick, because you are what you can (or theoretically should be able to) defend. Dunleavy isn't a SG, at all, IMO. Ellis and Redick are, and they have similar defense weaknesses, some offensive similarities, and some offensive disparities.
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Post#230 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:39 pm by jeremyd236

Rockmaninoff wrote: :lol:

Why would it make you sick? I never clearly advocated for either player and I never said anything directly disparaging about Ellis. I don't consider comparing Ellis to Redick as being an insult to Ellis.

You obviously didn't click the link. If you had, you would see that Redick is getting starter minutes. In starter minutes, Redick has a .613 TS and he has similar assist rates to Ellis. Both players have the same defensive weaknesses. Ellis is higher usage, gets to the line a little more, and is a slightly better ball thief.

I wouldn't compare Dunleavy to Redick, because you are what you can (or theoretically should be able to) defend. Dunleavy isn't a SG, at all, IMO. Ellis and Redick are, and they have similar defense weaknesses, some offensive similarities, and some offensive disparities.


You implied that we'd rather have "neither". Reread your post.

You seem to be obsessed with the stats of it all, but do you actually watch a game? Ellis is 3x the player Redick is, and that's not going to show up on your TS. Ellis can actually penetrate, drive, and dish. Which he does. Ellis is responsible for our fast pace, which is winning us games. The fact that you're bringing up statistics to compare Ellis to Redick of all players shows you really don't understand it. Dunleavy should be compared to Redick because they bring the same exact thing to the game. It's not about position.
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Post#231 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:42 pm by ampd

Rockmaninoff wrote:I wouldn't compare Dunleavy to Redick, because you are what you can (or theoretically should be able to) defend. Dunleavy isn't a SG, at all, IMO. Ellis and Redick are, and they have similar defense weaknesses, some offensive similarities, and some offensive disparities.


Dunleavy and Redick are comparable because they are both best used in the same role (and even in the same plays). They have similar offensive strengths and defensive weaknesses. You can run Redick off the same curls and screens you run Dunleavy off. Dunleavy could play the 2 ok earlier in his career but probably not anymore, but thats not really relevant to my point.

Ellis would probably be best used off the bench too, but thats really where the similarities end. His game is based off athleticism, he needs the ball in his hands, he isn't nearly as effective in the catch and shoot, he is vastly superior to Redick in terms of steals, and his game is best suited for a high tempo team that can use his speed on leak outs and in transition. Redick is a half court shooter, Monta is best as a pick and roll ball handler / slasher.
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Post#232 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:05 pm by Rockmaninoff

jeremyd236 wrote:
Rockmaninoff wrote: :lol:

Why would it make you sick? I never clearly advocated for either player and I never said anything directly disparaging about Ellis. I don't consider comparing Ellis to Redick as being an insult to Ellis.

You obviously didn't click the link. If you had, you would see that Redick is getting starter minutes. In starter minutes, Redick has a .613 TS and he has similar assist rates to Ellis. Both players have the same defensive weaknesses. Ellis is higher usage, gets to the line a little more, and is a slightly better ball thief.

I wouldn't compare Dunleavy to Redick, because you are what you can (or theoretically should be able to) defend. Dunleavy isn't a SG, at all, IMO. Ellis and Redick are, and they have similar defense weaknesses, some offensive similarities, and some offensive disparities.


You implied that we'd rather have "neither". Reread your post.

You seem to be obsessed with the stats of it all, but do you actually watch a game? Ellis is 3x the player Redick is, and that's not going to show up on your TS. Ellis can actually penetrate, drive, and dish. Which he does. Ellis is responsible for our fast pace, which is winning us games. The fact that you're bringing up statistics to compare Ellis to Redick of all players shows you really don't understand it. Dunleavy should be compared to Redick because they bring the same exact thing to the game. It's not about position.


I said that 'neither is obviously an option'. That was more saying that answering neither was worthless to the question I was asking. Your interpretation of all of this is saying more about you than it is about me. I've acknowledged that Ellis has warts to his game, but I haven't been overtly negative about him. I was excited to get him because of his passing ability, his ability to get to the rim, and I thought he could refine his game in Milwaukee and improve on those things. I think you are confusing me with someone else.

I haven't watched any of Redick this season, but I'm assuming he isn't getting all of his assist off hitting cutters? I realize that they are stylistically different players. Ellis is obviously a better athlete. Maybe I just see the game differently and see some different connections? I was really just seeking a 'I would rather have Ellis (or Redick) because...'

Anyway, sorry to bother you.
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Post#233 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:05 pm by gbmb34

Baddy Chuck wrote:
El Duderino wrote:So while of course the Bucks won't ever have a chance to be 50 plus win/top 3-4 seed in the East with a Monta/Jennings backcourt, i have found myself being surprisingly entertained by this team so far and with decent health this year, i do see the Bucks ended up being a better and more fun to watch team than i expected.

We're Golden State East. We're probably going to put up a fun and probably rather successful season (compared to our last few), but the sustainability just won't be there. That's my biggest thing. As you said, I think resigning Monta and continuing this experiment would be a mistake and as thankful as I am, I don't think Monta would want to even stay here unless we make him an offer he couldn't refuse. That means either we are going to completely waste an asset like Monta for (likely) one playoff appearance, or be stuck with him and consequently a much harder path to move forward as a team.


Disagree that we are Golden State west.

Our bigs are much better than there ever were and the Bucks have some quality defenders to go with the swag backcourt.
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Post#234 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:30 pm by AussieBuck

Redick is a better defender than Ellis. Monta has him for iso D and he gets more steals but Redick does the rest much better from what I've seen. He's still carrying his defensive rep from college and it really isn't warranted.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Post#235 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:42 pm by Baddy Chuck

Redick is also going to get somewhere like 4/$25 where as Monta is likely to get somewhere in the range of 4/$50.
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Post#236 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:17 pm by Bucksfans1and2

randy84 wrote:
LUKE23 wrote:
randy84 wrote:
On a team, players have roles. Their value should be based on how well they fill those roles.


This is where you are wrong and have been for some time. Like saying the "PF has to post up". Not true. In fact, if your C is a post up player you'd rather have a floor spacer next to him. But efficiency ALWAYS matters. The most amount of points in the least amount of possessions is the goal. The Bucks aren't winning with O right now anyway, more because of their D.


Efficiency doesn't matter as long as you outscore your opponent. The goal is to score more points than your opponent, not be efficient. You could be a hugely inefficient shooting team and still win games if you have a great defense.

It also somewhat ironic that you are propping the Bucks defense since you said they would have a bottom of the league defense this year.


Yes, you can win games with an inefficient offense and a great defense. The counter argument is that you win way more with an efficient offense and a great defense.

Anyone saying the Bucks would be awful defensively was assuming that we would be treated to the Drew Gooden show. Gooden has remained parked on the bench and Sanders (who Luke (and I)) thought would be a force defensively. We were both correct. You can go back and find posts by both of us saying that this team wins ten more games with Sanders getting Gooden's minutes, and there's a chance that we're totally correct. That's not a winning point in your argument.
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Post#237 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:37 pm by GHOSTofSIKMA

redick needs to be our target A in free agency.
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Post#238 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:43 pm by LUKE23

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:redick needs to be our target A in free agency.


No.
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Post#239 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:47 pm by Baddy Chuck

We'll need to replace Dunleavy somehow if we can't sign him. Korver and Redick are options.
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Post#240 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:55 am by Lippo

paulpressey25 wrote:
JayMKE wrote:If this trade was 'making out like bandits' then I don't even want to see what you guys think would be a bad trade.


Take a look at Brad Millers stats since the start of the 2006 season.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/556/brad-miller

This may be the type of player Bogut now has become for the second half of his career. Do you want to be paying $13 and $14 million a year for that?

Or would you rather get out from underneath $37 million in contracts (Bogut and Jackson) while adding Udoh and Monta?

If Bogut turns it around with the special German Orthokine lube job on his ankle, then great. But if he doesn't then I think I might rather take a hopefully healthy and younger Udoh by himself over a health unreliable 2012 version of Bogut.

Until people can wrap their heads around the fact that we didn't trade the younger, healthier 2010 FTD version of Bogut, I realize this trade will still be problematic for some.



Hey PP , I was torn apart for that comparison 4 years ago in my post...prophet i am...
viewtopic.php?t=827445
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Post#241 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:08 am by AussieBuck

I'm sure there are dumber things than a Bogut/Miller comparison. I just can't think of any right now.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Post#242 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:09 am by Baddy Chuck

AussieBuck wrote:I'm sure there are dumber things than a Bogut/Miller comparison. I just can't think of any right now.

Bogut / Dwight comparisons.
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Post#243 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:16 am by AussieBuck

Baddy Chuck wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:I'm sure there are dumber things than a Bogut/Miller comparison. I just can't think of any right now.

Bogut / Dwight comparisons.

At least it kinda makes sense on one side of the floor.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Post#244 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:46 am by bullox

AussieBuck wrote:At least it kinda makes sense on one side of the floor.



By one side of the floor, he means the free throw line.
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Post#245 Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done
Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:47 am by Lippo

bullox wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:At least it kinda makes sense on one side of the floor.



By one side of the floor, he means the free throw line.



damn i was just about to post the same thing, you stole my "Bogut Is a pile" thunder.


olakowandi , odon, bowie or bogut , who's the biggest bust? It's debatable
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