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JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias

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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#21 » by LUKE23 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:41 pm

I guess I don't understand how perimeter D is a problem, if the team D is good? Even if we are getting beat on the perimeter so far the frontcout is swallowing those mistakes up. We cannot sacrifice minutes for our few efficient scorers, and Harris and Dunleavy are at the top of the list.

Moute is a stopper on this team. Say we play NYK and Melo is going off. That's where Moute comes in. I hate him starting at either 3 or 4 with this team because we need all the efficient scoring and floor spacing we can get, given the roster makeup. Right now our interior length and our passing lane gambling/steals by the guards is covering most of our defensive mistakes.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#22 » by Newz » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:43 pm

LUKE23 wrote:I guess I don't understand how perimeter D is a problem, if the team D is good? Even if we are getting beat on the perimeter so far the frontcout is swallowing those mistakes up. We cannot sacrifice minutes for our few efficient scorers, and Harris and Dunleavy are at the top of the list.

Moute is a stopper on this team. Say we play NYK and Melo is going off. That's where Moute comes in. I hate him starting at either 3 or 4 with this team because we need all the efficient scoring and floor spacing we can get, given the roster makeup.


It'd be easier if we had decent offensive options at the 4/5... but we really don't. None of those guys can create on their own, they are all just finishers. (Even Ersan is just a spot up guy)

But right now our 4/5 is set up to just rebound the ball, protect the rim and dominate defensively. We desperately need offense from our guards and the SF spot.

I love Moute... he just doesn't fit right now.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#23 » by europa » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:45 pm

There are a large number of standout wing scorers in this league. If the Bucks are going to be a legitimate playoff team they will need to have someone who can at least present a defensive threat against them. They currently have no one who can do that. Moute obviously can. For that and many other defensive-related reasons I think his value to this team is immense. I say that as a big Harris fan and I like Dunleavy a lot too. But the reality is that both of them are serious defensive weaknesses right now. So is Ellis. Jennings can be too. That means the Bucks can have games where they offer no resistance at all defensively on the perimeter. A healthy Moute changes that.

I also don't see how replacing Ilyasova with Moute hurts the team offensively should Ilyasova continue to suck. You could argue that removing Ilyasova would actually help the offense given how bad he's been.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#24 » by emunney » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:47 pm

Moute will be a nice option to have against good individual perimeter scorers and if we feel compelled to match up with a team when they go small. It would make sense to start him against some teams, Miami being the obvious example. But this notion that we've got to get him in there to bail out our defense is bizarre.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#25 » by LUKE23 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:48 pm

europa wrote:There are a large number of standout wing scorers in this league. If the Bucks are going to be a legitimate playoff team they will need to have someone who can at least present a defensive threat against them. They currently have no one who can do that. Moute obviously can. For that and many other defensive-related reasons I think his value to this team is immense. I say that as a big Harris fan and I like Dunleavy a lot too. But the reality is that both of them are serious defensive weaknesses right now. So is Ellis. Jennings can be too. That means the Bucks can have games where they offer no resistance at all defensively on the perimeter. A healthy Moute changes that.

I also don't see how replacing Ilyasova with Moute hurts the team offensively should Ilyasova continue to suck. You could argue that removing Ilyasova would actually help the offense given how bad he's been.


Moute's biggest value is against elite offensive players. As a normal rotation guy, right now, I think he's a poor fit. Regarding Ilyasova, I'm giving him a while before I start Moute over him. We need Ilyasova's floor spacing badly.

Regarding defensive weakness, all I really care about is how the team defense functions. It's functioning well right now. The offense is.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#26 » by emunney » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:49 pm

europa wrote:There are a large number of standout wing scorers in this league. If the Bucks are going to be a legitimate playoff team they will need to have someone who can at least present a defensive threat against them. They currently have no one who can do that. Moute obviously can. For that and many other defensive-related reasons I think his value to this team is immense. I say that as a big Harris fan and I like Dunleavy a lot too. But the reality is that both of them are serious defensive weaknesses right now. So is Ellis. Jennings can be too. That means the Bucks can have games where they offer no resistance at all defensively on the perimeter. A healthy Moute changes that.

I also don't see how replacing Ilyasova with Moute hurts the team offensively should Ilyasova continue to suck. You could argue that removing Ilyasova would actually help the offense given how bad he's been.


So you replace Ilyasova with Moute so that Moute can guard a perimeter player, and then who guards the PF? Dunleavy?
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#27 » by paulpressey25 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:49 pm

Where you need Moute was against Paul Pierce or KG last week.

Doesn't mean you play him a lot of minutes or start him IMO.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#28 » by LUKE23 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:49 pm

emunney wrote:Moute will be a nice option to have against good individual perimeter scorers and if we feel compelled to match up with a team when they go small. It would make sense to start him against some teams, Miami being the obvious example. But this notion that we've got to get him in there to bail out our defense is bizarre.


Yep.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#29 » by europa » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:49 pm

To be clear, I never said the Bucks need Moute to bail out the defense. I said that the perimeter defense is a weakness in my opinion and Moute can help that. I also view him as a viable starting PF if Ilyasova's play doesn't improve.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#30 » by Newz » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:50 pm

emunney wrote:
europa wrote:There are a large number of standout wing scorers in this league. If the Bucks are going to be a legitimate playoff team they will need to have someone who can at least present a defensive threat against them. They currently have no one who can do that. Moute obviously can. For that and many other defensive-related reasons I think his value to this team is immense. I say that as a big Harris fan and I like Dunleavy a lot too. But the reality is that both of them are serious defensive weaknesses right now. So is Ellis. Jennings can be too. That means the Bucks can have games where they offer no resistance at all defensively on the perimeter. A healthy Moute changes that.

I also don't see how replacing Ilyasova with Moute hurts the team offensively should Ilyasova continue to suck. You could argue that removing Ilyasova would actually help the offense given how bad he's been.


So you replace Ilyasova with Moute so that Moute can guard a perimeter player, and then who guards the PF? Dunleavy?


Yeah... that makes zero sense.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#31 » by LUKE23 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:51 pm

europa wrote:To be clear, I never said the Bucks need Moute to bail out the defense. I said that the perimeter defense is a weakness in my opinion and Moute can help that. I also view him as a viable starting PF if Ilyasova's play doesn't improve.


But the perimeter defense isn't negatively impacting team defense. How much better can our D get playing Moute? And on the flip side, does it improve the D enough to make up for a further loss in offense (currently 17th) by playing him? I'd answer no.

Right now, I'd play all of the following players more minutes than Moute:

Jennings
Ellis
Harris
Ilyasova
Dunleavy
Sanders
Udoh

He'd be at best 8th on the team in minutes, barring major changes.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#32 » by europa » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:53 pm

emunney wrote:
europa wrote:There are a large number of standout wing scorers in this league. If the Bucks are going to be a legitimate playoff team they will need to have someone who can at least present a defensive threat against them. They currently have no one who can do that. Moute obviously can. For that and many other defensive-related reasons I think his value to this team is immense. I say that as a big Harris fan and I like Dunleavy a lot too. But the reality is that both of them are serious defensive weaknesses right now. So is Ellis. Jennings can be too. That means the Bucks can have games where they offer no resistance at all defensively on the perimeter. A healthy Moute changes that.

I also don't see how replacing Ilyasova with Moute hurts the team offensively should Ilyasova continue to suck. You could argue that removing Ilyasova would actually help the offense given how bad he's been.


So you replace Ilyasova with Moute so that Moute can guard a perimeter player, and then who guards the PF? Dunleavy?


I'm not replacing Ilyasova with Moute so Moute can guard a perimeter player; I'm replacing Ilyasova because he presently sucks and Moute is a viable option as a starter assuming Ilyasova's play doesn't improve.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#33 » by europa » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:54 pm

LUKE23 wrote:
europa wrote:To be clear, I never said the Bucks need Moute to bail out the defense. I said that the perimeter defense is a weakness in my opinion and Moute can help that. I also view him as a viable starting PF if Ilyasova's play doesn't improve.


But the perimeter defense isn't negatively impacting team defense. How much better can our D get playing Moute? And on the flip side, does it improve the D enough to make up for a further loss in offense (currently 17th) by playing him? I'd answer no.

Right now, I'd play all of the following players more minutes than Moute:

Jennings
Ellis
Harris
Ilyasova
Dunleavy
Sanders
Udoh

He'd be at best 8th on the team in minutes, barring major changes.


I'd play him ahead of Ilyasova and Udoh given how poorly Ilyasova is playing and considering I don't see what Udoh is providing that Sanders cannot.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#34 » by LUKE23 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:55 pm

Yeah, there is no way I agree there.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#35 » by Newz » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:57 pm

LUKE23 wrote:Right now, I'd play all of the following players more minutes than Moute:

Jennings
Ellis
Harris
Ilyasova
Dunleavy
Sanders
Udoh

He'd be at best 8th on the team in minutes, barring major changes.


Why does Dalembert not make this list?

Right now the whole point of our team is that our perimeter players are going to create offense for themselves and create high percentage opportunities for our bigs offensively... and defensively the bigs will make up for the shortcomings that we have on the perimeter. It has worked very well thus far and is a good concept.

Moute is an excellent defender, but he isn't going to protect the rim at all. He can play good D against one PF and he isn't a very good rebounder at PF either.

Right now it makes no sense to play him over Dalembert, Udoh or Sanders. If Ersan starts playing anywhere close to normal it won't make any sense to play him over Ersan either.

Right now Moute is a situational player on this roster. Not because he isn't good... just because how the roster is constructed.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#36 » by crkone » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:59 pm

Having Ilyasova out there sucking it up still draws bigs out of the paint to guard him behind the arc. Even Harris is drawing wings out of the paint. LRMAM starting with say Dunleavy would make our guards less effective at driving into the paint.

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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#37 » by Thunder Muscle » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:20 pm

Per wiretap it does look like Woelful has also said Moute will practice next week, so I guess my assumption may be wrong. I agree that I don't want him to start, I'd rather use him situationally off the bench. I'm not sure if Moute will be happy with that, but we'll see how it plays out.

I'm curious who the 2nd inactive will be when he's good to go. I would assume Doron Lamb at this point. Can't imagine Pryz with how Sanders fouls and Daniels is ahead of Lamb at this point.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#38 » by coolhandluke121 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:39 pm

Harris will be buried on the bench when Moute returns. Henson won't play either. And I don't really mind because Moute is such a proven contributor. Harris is mostly just getting garbage points anyway, and Moute's actually pretty good at that. If they were utilizing Harris correctly then you would see a big drop-off, but since they're under-utilizing him on offense it won't make much difference.

I don't buy the argument that the Bucks need offense more than defense. Even if you're already very good on defense, you can get better by adding a guy like Moute. If you give up 3 points on offense but gain 4 points on defense, you've improved. That's true even if you were already the best defensive team and worst offensive team in the league. There's a point of diminishing returns when you keep adding offensive players because there's only one basketball. But there's no point of diminishing returns on defense because all 5 opposing players have to be defended. As long as you have enough offense, which they will once Ellis and Ersan break out of their horrendous slumps, this will be the rotation:

Jennings/Udrih
Ellis/Udrih/MDJ
LRMAM/MDJ
Ersan/Sanders
Dalembert/Udoh

And Daniels will probably be the 10th man who plays under 10mpg just to make the timing of the substitutions work. I'd normally prefer to develop Harris and Henson, but I see this as a potential home-court team so I don't mind sacrificing player development for now.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#39 » by Newz » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:47 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:Harris will be buried on the bench when Moute returns. Henson won't play either. And I don't really mind because Moute is such a proven contributor. Harris is mostly just getting garbage points anyway, and Moute's actually pretty good at that. If they were utilizing Harris correctly then you would see a big drop-off, but since they're under-utilizing him on offense it won't make much difference.

I don't buy the argument that the Bucks need offense more than defense. Even if you're already very good on defense, you can get better by adding a guy like Moute. If you give up 3 points on offense but gain 4 points on defense, you've improved. That's true even if you were already the best defensive team and worst offensive team in the league. There's a point of diminishing returns when you keep adding offensive players because there's only one basketball. But there's no point of diminishing returns on defense because all 5 opposing players have to be defended. As long as you have enough offense, which they will once Ellis and Ersan break out of their horrendous slumps, this will be the rotation:

Jennings/Udrih
Ellis/Udrih/MDJ
LRMAM/MDJ
Ersan/Sanders
Dalembert/Udoh

And Daniels will probably be the 10th man who plays under 10mpg just to make the timing of the substitutions work. I'd normally prefer to develop Harris and Henson, but I see this as a potential home-court team so I don't mind sacrificing player development for now.


Tobes TS% right now is almost 70%... I realize he's only scoring 8 a game, but I highly doubt Moute can get even close to that.

I agree if we used him as a primary option that would drop big time, but so what? If he can be a 8-10 PPG guy playing the minutes he's playing he will be super useful even if his TS% drops 10 points by the end of the year.
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Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias 

Post#40 » by BUCKnation » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:48 pm

Id definitely give all minutes Daniels has to Moute. Id probably just spread his minutes between positions. We can play Dunleavy more at the 2, in some backup sets as well.

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