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JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias

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Post#61 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:10 pm by unklchuk

MilBucksBackOnTop06 wrote:
europa wrote:I think the perimeter defense is a major area of concern. I love Tobes but he's not a good defender. Dunleavy's terrible. Whenever Ellis is on the court he sucks defensively. I think the Bucks need Moute's perimeter defense.

Another that I am not sure what they are watching. Some say things without actually thinking or looking at the game. Monta has busted his tail on the perimeter with bodying up his man on defense and then playing over, under, and around screens.

SG and PG is extremly hard to defend if you space the floor and ball swing properly and hit your open shots on top...so you can't count that. NOBODY CAN GUARD that kind of execution. You tip your hat to that and move on...but Monta and Brandon have pressured teams out of that when their ball guarding. Give them some credit.

He and Jennings have been very good in that area...Jennings leads the NBA in steals and Monta is not far behind and might lead in ball deflections and is the best playing the passing lanes and garnering loose balls.

Deflections and ball denial is defense too my friends. Watch the game and stop rap sheet posting...posting what a players rap is (poor defender without taking an honest look at any improvements lately)

WHO HAS TORCHED MONTA THIS YEAR? Tell me? Who? Just name me one player and I will leave it alone!? Ok Pierce hit some shots late...so what. Big deal. That is going to happen and guys are going to hit some 3's on him like J-Rich. Ellis is not a shotblocker...but there is more to defense then blocking shots.

Monta is playing the best defense of anyone on the entitre team but Jennings. Watch the game and stop going on reputation. Monta and Jennings have Rondo and dribble penetration the last 3-4 games...that is all you ask for cats their size!

You know basketball better then this. If this was not true I would be the first one to say it and call them out on poor defense, but Monta and Jennings are getting it in on the defensive end. Try actually watch the darn game...I see improvments and effort

The Bucks are 5-2....hello somebody! Tell me, what constitues a good defensive game for a SG and PG in the NBA to some of you? I got a stat happy crowd in here I know...but I dont look at numbers on a paper all the time.


I call this a worthwhile post as a counter to the prevailing opinion. But IMO this adds to the truth, not constitutes it. And if it's the prevailing opinion you disagree with, I don't see a purpose to going after individuals. Especially individuals who are known for giving things some thought.

My observations of Ellis have largely shown me a guy working hard at defense and having some success. The fact that it's hard to stop the opponent and the fact that Ellis isn't well equipped to do so clearly factor in. But I'd stop way short of calling him a defensive disaster.

The defensive disaster that comes to mind was Dunleavy trying to guard Pierce in the second half of their last game. That was painful, and futile, until Daniels replaced him.
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Post#62 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:29 pm by coolhandluke121

Newz wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:Harris will be buried on the bench when Moute returns. Henson won't play either. And I don't really mind because Moute is such a proven contributor. Harris is mostly just getting garbage points anyway, and Moute's actually pretty good at that. If they were utilizing Harris correctly then you would see a big drop-off, but since they're under-utilizing him on offense it won't make much difference.

I don't buy the argument that the Bucks need offense more than defense. Even if you're already very good on defense, you can get better by adding a guy like Moute. If you give up 3 points on offense but gain 4 points on defense, you've improved. That's true even if you were already the best defensive team and worst offensive team in the league. There's a point of diminishing returns when you keep adding offensive players because there's only one basketball. But there's no point of diminishing returns on defense because all 5 opposing players have to be defended. As long as you have enough offense, which they will once Ellis and Ersan break out of their horrendous slumps, this will be the rotation:

Jennings/Udrih
Ellis/Udrih/MDJ
LRMAM/MDJ
Ersan/Sanders
Dalembert/Udoh

And Daniels will probably be the 10th man who plays under 10mpg just to make the timing of the substitutions work. I'd normally prefer to develop Harris and Henson, but I see this as a potential home-court team so I don't mind sacrificing player development for now.


Tobes TS% right now is almost 70%... I realize he's only scoring 8 a game, but I highly doubt Moute can get even close to that.



Yes, but at the volume Harris has now and the volume Moute would have, a 15% difference in TS% is probably not even 2 points a game. Moute's defense, compared to Harris, easily makes up for that. If they were utilizing Harris more effectively then the drop-off in scoring would be dramatic. But they're not, and probably never will as long as they start with this backcourt. Moute instead of Harris would fit the starting lineup much better IMO. Except for one, maybe two good post-ups per game, Harris has been relegated to being mostly a garbage player on offense anyway. Moute can do that too, with the added bonus of lockdown defense.

I'm not really arguing for it vehemently because I like Harris. I'm just trying to convince myself that it's going to be a good move because I've already resigned myself to the fact that it's inevitable. And I do see some benefits.
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Post#63 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:38 pm by Thunder Muscle

But for me, the team is currently 5th in defense and in the bottom half for offense. The numbers clearly state we need better offense which is something Tobias can provide and is doing so efficiently albeit a little more limited touches. But the #'s lead me to believe we need more offense, which equals more Tobias than Moute for me.
TBD
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Post#64 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:39 pm by coolhandluke121

crkone wrote:Does this team REALLY need an efficient scorer who can create his own offense from the post? I mean it's not like the Bucks will have to play any half court offense with the swag duo we have runnin' and gunnin'. In fact, we should try to trade Harris for Crawford or Terry and really get a good trifecta going.


They don't really need another gunner though. They just need a specialist of some sort who will play defense. Once Ersan and Ellis find their stroke a little bit, even if they're below career norms, the offense will be okay. Dalembert provides some offense as well. Ersan can stretch the floor, so they can easily incorporate a rebounder and defender who scores only garbage points inside at sf. Moute is perfect.
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Post#65 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:45 pm by coolhandluke121

N8Frog wrote:But for me, the team is currently 5th in defense and in the bottom half for offense. The numbers clearly state we need better offense which is something Tobias can provide and is doing so efficiently albeit a little more limited touches. But the #'s lead me to believe we need more offense, which equals more Tobias than Moute for me.


I can't even get my head around that logic. Just because they're not good on offense means that the only way to improve is with better offensive players? The fact is that any personnel change that improves their scoring margin will also improve their record over the course of the season. Even if you're already the best defensive team in NBA history, improving your defense by 2 ppg will result in the same number of project additional wins as improving your offense by 2 ppg would. Have synergy and an identity and you're good. Moute would provide more of that in the starting lineup, whereas Harris is just wasting away on offense and giving away points on defense.
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Post#66 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:17 pm by crkone

coolhandluke121 wrote:
N8Frog wrote:But for me, the team is currently 5th in defense and in the bottom half for offense. The numbers clearly state we need better offense which is something Tobias can provide and is doing so efficiently albeit a little more limited touches. But the #'s lead me to believe we need more offense, which equals more Tobias than Moute for me.


I can't even get my head around that logic. Just because they're not good on offense means that the only way to improve is with better offensive players? The fact is that any personnel change that improves their scoring margin will also improve their record over the course of the season. Even if you're already the best defensive team in NBA history, improving your defense by 2 ppg will result in the same number of project additional wins as improving your offense by 2 ppg would. Have synergy and an identity and you're good. Moute would provide more of that in the starting lineup, whereas Harris is just wasting away on offense and giving away points on defense.


But even if Harris is hanging around the corner behind the 3pt line, he is still dragging out the wing defender. No defender in there right mind will stay anywhere near LRMAM out there. And if LRMAM is in the post, he is clogging it up for Ellis' or Jennings' drive and kick or floater. I wanted to start LRMAM with Harris at the 2/3, but we don't need LRMAM's defense right now. We need Skiles to get Harris the ball 10x a game in the post.
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Post#67 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:17 pm by Sigra

Moute should start insteed of Ersan. He is better than this Ersan at everything. Even shooting.

I didn't want to re-sign Ersan and I said that it was first thing that Hammond did that I really didn't like. I still don't like it. Ersan doesn't have place in this team.
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Post#68 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:21 pm by Thunder Muscle

coolhandluke121 wrote:
N8Frog wrote:But for me, the team is currently 5th in defense and in the bottom half for offense. The numbers clearly state we need better offense which is something Tobias can provide and is doing so efficiently albeit a little more limited touches. But the #'s lead me to believe we need more offense, which equals more Tobias than Moute for me.


I can't even get my head around that logic. Just because they're not good on offense means that the only way to improve is with better offensive players? The fact is that any personnel change that improves their scoring margin will also improve their record over the course of the season. Even if you're already the best defensive team in NBA history, improving your defense by 2 ppg will result in the same number of project additional wins as improving your offense by 2 ppg would. Have synergy and an identity and you're good. Moute would provide more of that in the starting lineup, whereas Harris is just wasting away on offense and giving away points on defense.


You have to at least respect Harris on the offensive end, but if you start Moute you don't as much which will lead to more focus on defending Ellis/Jennings which I think hurts the offense. Harris at least frees them up a little bit b/c the defense has to pay attention to him. They've been a top 5 defense without Moute and I don't think adding him over Harris is going to help the offense. I don't think Moute alone is going to make this the best defensive team in the league and the offense will probably regress a bit as well. That is what I was getting at.
TBD
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Post#69 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:32 pm by coolhandluke121

N8Frog wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:
N8Frog wrote:But for me, the team is currently 5th in defense and in the bottom half for offense. The numbers clearly state we need better offense which is something Tobias can provide and is doing so efficiently albeit a little more limited touches. But the #'s lead me to believe we need more offense, which equals more Tobias than Moute for me.


I can't even get my head around that logic. Just because they're not good on offense means that the only way to improve is with better offensive players? The fact is that any personnel change that improves their scoring margin will also improve their record over the course of the season. Even if you're already the best defensive team in NBA history, improving your defense by 2 ppg will result in the same number of project additional wins as improving your offense by 2 ppg would. Have synergy and an identity and you're good. Moute would provide more of that in the starting lineup, whereas Harris is just wasting away on offense and giving away points on defense.


You have to at least respect Harris on the offensive end, but if you start Moute you don't as much which will lead to more focus on defending Ellis/Jennings which I think hurts the offense. Harris at least frees them up a little bit b/c the defense has to pay attention to him. They've been a top 5 defense without Moute and I don't think adding him over Harris is going to help the offense. I don't think Moute alone is going to make this the best defensive team in the league and the offense will probably regress a bit as well. That is what I was getting at.


The point about Harris potentially drawing attention is a good one in theory, but I'm not sure it's actually happening in practice. He doesn't really stretch the floor. Most of his points are coming near the basket. Moute is an underrated scoring around the basket. He obviously doesn't have the same post game, but his slashing is good as is his scoring on putbacks.

I think people who suggest LRMAM should start for Ersan are over-reacting right now. Eventually maybe, but they're nowhere near the point where they should consider it IMO. His skill set is ideal for this line-up.
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Post#70 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:47 pm by ampd

Moute won't be a good fit for starting and playing 30+ minutes at SF until / unless he learns to shoot the corner 3. He can take some of Ersan's minutes but Ersan has already lost some minutes to Udoh.

My guess is that we ease him in for a while and his role will depend on his health / athleticism post injury.

If we could trade 4 or 5 of Monta's long 2 attempts for plays designed to get Tobes the ball in the post, we'd be quite a bit better offensively.

Also Tobes is way too good for the D League, the only things he can learn down there are bad habits. Same with Henson. I would consider sending Lamb down though if we aren't going to use him. Let him work on his PG skills down there.
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Post#71 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:53 pm by Sigra

Ersan sucks when he is paired with real rebounding C. Proved, tested, checked and approved.

He would be great fit in Nets next to Lopez though. Or Raptors next to Andrea. Or Bucks next to Gooden. Ups.
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Post#72 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:01 pm by AussieBuck

Agree with most here, Giving Luc anything but emergency minutes over our only two efficient perimeter players would be madness.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Post#73 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:11 pm by DocHoliday

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/features ... 6#93979296
The NBA trade deadline isn't until March, and while this is just speculation we have to believe Boston could be one of the most active teams looking to deal.

Here's why: unlike most projected contenders, the Celtics have a roster deep with affordable -- in some cases young -- tradeable players that could be packaged for the right player.

From Courtney Lee to Brandon Bass to Jeff Green to Jared Sullinger and Fab Melo, these are the type of guys who, if packaged with draft picks, could potentially be the parts needed to swing a deal that would help the C's acquire what they need -- a proven big man to go next to Kevin Garnett, perhaps? -- in their drive to the playoffs.

Again, this is only speculation on my part, but what the Celtics also have that most contenders don't is a young piece that they could offer up to headline a deal, and that is the defensive wizard himself -- Avery Bradley.

Would they want to part with Bradley? Certainly not, but with the window closing on the KG and Paul Pierce era in Boston, don't be surprised if they at least consider moving Bradley and some of the others mentioned above for the right deal.


I'd love to get Bradley, not sure I'd want to give up Udoh to get him though. I bet the Cs go after AL Jeff and if Utah gets Bradley out of it, O M G.
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Post#74 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:29 pm by Be Here Now

Sigra wrote:Ersan sucks when he is paired with real rebounding C. Proved, tested, checked and approved.

He would be great fit in Nets next to Lopez though. Or Raptors next to Andrea. Or Bucks next to Gooden. Ups.

If it were that simple they would just start Udoh at C with Ersan.

He's a bad rebounder.....so therefore Ersan will be good again!!
:rockon:

The logical explanation is that Ersan isn't nearly as bad as he's been this year, and not nearly as good as he was in the second half last year. If he reverts to somewhere between his 10-11 & 11-12 norms, he's not a bad contract at all.
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He is the one player I wish was healthy all year but I do not complain about it. You can't control that so why cry?
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Post#75 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:36 pm by Sigra

Be Here Now wrote:
Sigra wrote:Ersan sucks when he is paired with real rebounding C. Proved, tested, checked and approved.

He would be great fit in Nets next to Lopez though. Or Raptors next to Andrea. Or Bucks next to Gooden. Ups.

If it were that simple they would just start Udoh at C with Ersan.

He's a bad rebounder.....so therefore Ersan will be good again!!
:rockon:


Exactly what I said here:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1213691&start=15

But we do have 2 Cs who deserve minutes (Dalambert and Sanders)
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Post#76 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:28 pm by El Duderino

coolhandluke121 wrote:
crkone wrote:Does this team REALLY need an efficient scorer who can create his own offense from the post? I mean it's not like the Bucks will have to play any half court offense with the swag duo we have runnin' and gunnin'. In fact, we should try to trade Harris for Crawford or Terry and really get a good trifecta going.


They don't really need another gunner though. They just need a specialist of some sort who will play defense. Once Ersan and Ellis find their stroke a little bit, even if they're below career norms, the offense will be okay. Dalembert provides some offense as well. Ersan can stretch the floor, so they can easily incorporate a rebounder and defender who scores only garbage points inside at sf. Moute is perfect.


I'm guessing that Skiles will end up using Luc in a fairly erratic fashion from game to game, depending on a variety of factors. Who we are playing against. How certain guys on the Bucks are playing on a given night. How Moute is playing during a game.

Thus i can see him getting 20 plus minutes one night and under 10-15 the next night. That's how i'd use him off the bench. Game flow. Matchups. How certain Bucks players are doing in a given game.
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Post#77 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:26 pm by Ayt

crkone wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:
N8Frog wrote:But for me, the team is currently 5th in defense and in the bottom half for offense. The numbers clearly state we need better offense which is something Tobias can provide and is doing so efficiently albeit a little more limited touches. But the #'s lead me to believe we need more offense, which equals more Tobias than Moute for me.


I can't even get my head around that logic. Just because they're not good on offense means that the only way to improve is with better offensive players? The fact is that any personnel change that improves their scoring margin will also improve their record over the course of the season. Even if you're already the best defensive team in NBA history, improving your defense by 2 ppg will result in the same number of project additional wins as improving your offense by 2 ppg would. Have synergy and an identity and you're good. Moute would provide more of that in the starting lineup, whereas Harris is just wasting away on offense and giving away points on defense.


But even if Harris is hanging around the corner behind the 3pt line, he is still dragging out the wing defender. No defender in there right mind will stay anywhere near LRMAM out there. And if LRMAM is in the post, he is clogging it up for Ellis' or Jennings' drive and kick or floater. I wanted to start LRMAM with Harris at the 2/3, but we don't need LRMAM's defense right now. We need Skiles to get Harris the ball 10x a game in the post.


Exactly. It isn't just about the individual scoring difference. It is how they score. You have to guard Tobes. You don't have to guard Moute unless he's at the rim.
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Post#78 Re: JS: Skiles Comments on Tobias
Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:50 pm by raferfenix

Skiles of all coaches will find time for our team's best defender.

That is, if he remains our best defender after these injuries and him not being in shape and everything.

I'm hoping Dunlevy will be able to cut it at the 2. Provided that's the case then Moute will easily take Daniels' minutes, and allow us to bench Ellis when he's playing too erratically.
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