Hornets/Bucks Postgame

ampd · Post #76 » by **ampd** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:56 pm

Nebula1 wrote:I thought the 'Larry' chant late in the game was a good moment.

He has such an impact on the game defensively. Hopefully over time he learns to cut out the pointless off ball fouls that are the cause of his foul problems.

jeremyd236 · Post #77 » by **jeremyd236** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:06 pm

ampd wrote:
Nebula1 wrote:I thought the 'Larry' chant late in the game was a good moment.

He has such an impact on the game defensively. Hopefully over time he learns to cut out the pointless off ball fouls that are the cause of his foul problems.

There were a few times when he was so concerned about getting the block on the help defense, he ignored boxing his guy out (and they got the rebound and scored). I think it happened twice in the 4th quarter by my count.

I love his defense and energy, but sometimes you've got to box your guy out.

ampd · Post #78 » by **ampd** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:13 pm

jeremyd236 wrote:
ampd wrote:
Nebula1 wrote:I thought the 'Larry' chant late in the game was a good moment.

He has such an impact on the game defensively. Hopefully over time he learns to cut out the pointless off ball fouls that are the cause of his foul problems.

There were a few times when he was so concerned about getting the block on the help defense, he ignored boxing his guy out (and they got the rebound and scored). I think it happened twice in the 4th quarter by my count.

I love his defense and energy, but sometimes you've got to box your guy out.

Better to give up a potential offensive rebound than a layup. We have been the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA by a significant margin (with Larry playing the most minutes of anyone at C), so its hard for me to classify this as a real problem right now.

jeremyd236 · Post #79 » by **jeremyd236** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:26 pm

ampd wrote:
Better to give up a potential offensive rebound than a layup. We have been the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA by a significant margin (with Larry playing the most minutes of anyone at C), so its hard for me to classify this as a real problem right now.

He didn't get the block though. He tried to get it through help defense (not his guy), missed the block, and his guy had a wide open layup or putback. As our center, if he completely leaves his guy to go try to block a shot on a guy he's not defending, the paint is wide open for an offensive board. I don't understand how that could be better. It's not like these were wide open layups.

Edit: I'm not saying it's a "problem". It's something to be aware of. Defense has always and will always be a team concept. We tend to focus on big blocks, etc. when thinking of defense, however I look at it in the aggregate. I'd rather have a well-contested shot leading to a missed FG and a defensive rebound. The block on Anderson at the end was huge, but Anderson also had 2 wide open put-backs caused by the same thing.

ampd · Post #80 » by **ampd** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:35 pm

Help defense always involves leaving your guy. Its on someone else to get that rebound if it doesn't go Larry's way, or on the wing player to stop the penetration before Larry has to help. You can't just let guys attempt shots at the rim because you are worried about not getting the rebound. We saw how effective that was last season when Gooden did it literally every time someone drove the basket, and it was a complete disaster.

coolhandluke121 · Post #81 » by **coolhandluke121** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:52 pm

It's a pretty well-known fact that the correlation between blocked shots and team defense is surprisingly weak, and it's because a lot of prolific shot-blockers are either over-aggressive in leaving their man and/or leaving their feet, and also because a lot of them are the long, lean, wiry type who can block a lot of shots with their help defense but also have trouble holding defensive position in their one-on-one matchups against strong post players. I love what Larry has been doing, but count me squarely in the camp that thinks there's plenty of room for improvement. I tend to value guys like Udoh just as much, if not more, than guys like Sanders when it comes to defense.

jeremyd236 · Post #82 » by **jeremyd236** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:55 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:It's a pretty well-known fact that the correlation between blocked shots and team defense is surprisingly weak, and it's because a lot of prolific shot-blockers are either over-aggressive in leaving their man and/or leaving their feet, and also because a lot of them are the long, lean, wiry type who can block a lot of shots with their help defense but also have trouble holding defensive position in their one-on-one matchups against strong post players. I love what Larry has been doing, but count me squarely in the camp that thinks there's plenty of room for improvement. I tend to value guys like Udoh just as much, if not more, than guys like Sanders when it comes to defense.

This is what I'm trying to get at. Great blocks are what fans remember, but it has little meaning when talking about good defense. I'd much rather have a well contested shot, missed FG, and a defensive rebound.

"help defense" does NOT mean you have to leave your feet, and it certainly does not mean you do it every single time you think you can get a block. Flying down the lane and slapping the backboard for the sake of help defense can have negative consequences, as evidenced several times last night.

Larry needs to improve on his decision making regarding not only when to provide help defense, but when to stay down and not go for the block.

ampd · Post #83 » by **ampd** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:59 pm

Of course Larry can get better, but again if any of that were actually a huge problem for our team (at least so far this season), we would not be the best team in the NBA at defensive rebounding and at opponent's points in the paint.

Literally every single team stat going back to mid last season says we are better with Larry on the floor in all the categories that should be worse if either of you are right.

AussieBuck · Post #84 » by **AussieBuck** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:14 pm

There were definitely two blocks in the 4th that Larry went for that he wasn't going to alter and was never going to block that led to putbacks.

Garbs_7 · Post #85 » by **Garbs_7** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:18 pm

So if he keeps playing well and we keep winning, Jennings is a decent shot for the ASG. Do we want him to be voted in though knowing that having the all star tag is guaranteed to cost us more money in the offseason. On the other hand if he misses out again he might go into a slump again like after last all star break... Thoughts?

AussieBuck · Post #86 » by **AussieBuck** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:22 pm

Garbs_7 wrote:So if he keeps playing well and we keep winning, Jennings is a decent shot for the ASG. Do we want him to be voted in though knowing that having the all star tag is guaranteed to cost us more money in the offseason. On the other hand if he misses out again he might go into a slump again like after last all star break... Thoughts?

The extra calls that come with it would be nice but it would have to earn him a extra million. I'd rather he be delayed a year.

ampd · Post #87 » by **ampd** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:23 pm

AussieBuck wrote:There were definitely two blocks in the 4th that Larry went for that he wasn't going to alter and was never going to block that led to putbacks.

Of course, but that happens to literally every center in the NBA. It happened to Bogut while he was here too. Larry is young, he is going to make some mistakes. As long as the positive outweighs the negative, which so far it massively has, including in last night's game, I'm fine with it. I expect that Skiles will point out areas of potential improvement to Larry, but to me its quite obviously not a major issue that is hurting the team.

Who cares if there is a weak correlation between blocked shots and team defense if the players we have that block shots are positively affecting team defense AND rebounding, and by any examination of the box score / game film its obvious?

AussieBuck · Post #88 » by **AussieBuck** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:38 pm

ampd wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:There were definitely two blocks in the 4th that Larry went for that he wasn't going to alter and was never going to block that led to putbacks.

Of course, but that happens to literally every center in the NBA. It happened to Bogut while he was here too. Larry is young, he is going to make some mistakes. As long as the positive outweighs the negative, which so far it massively has, including in last night's game, I'm fine with it. I expect that Skiles will point out areas of potential improvement to Larry, but to me its quite obviously not a major issue that is hurting the team.

Who cares if there is a weak correlation between blocked shots and team defense if the players we have that block shots are positively affecting team defense AND rebounding, and by any examination of the box score / game film its obvious?

I only mentioned it because they were ridiculous attempts. I'm not really bothered by it, his D was still very good and I'm sure someone will show him the tape of it so he tones it down a little on shots that have already been released before he jumps.

BUCKnation · Post #89 » by **BUCKnation** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:49 pm

So true.

Used wrong meme tho...

Turd Ferguson · Post #90 » by **Turd Ferguson** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:51 pm

AussieBuck wrote:There were definitely two blocks in the 4th that Larry went for that he wasn't going to alter and was never going to block that led to putbacks.

I think with his mentality, when he goes for some of those blocks that just aren't going to happen, he does have enough of an intimidating presence already that he will alter a number of shots, but I agree - him leaving his feet on those tends to give the advantage to the other team's offense in terms of rebounding a miss while our guys are going to be out of position/not boxing out as well as they should.

The two last night were pretty bad, and it's gonna be a while (if ever) before he finds a way to be more disciplined with his block attempts and defense in general. But with the room for improvement (that's very realistic) he's got combined with the level he's playing at eight games into the season? Very, very encouraging so far. And seeing Dally and Pryz (especially Dally as of late) taking it upon themselves to really mentor and drop little tidbits of info on Sanders during timeouts and between dead balls is promising for his development as well.

Baddy Chuck · Post #91 » by **Baddy Chuck** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:01 pm

AussieBuck wrote:There were definitely two blocks in the 4th that Larry went for that he wasn't going to alter and was never going to block that led to putbacks.

Weren't both of them Anthony Davis who wasn't even Larry's guy though?

BUCKnation · Post #92 » by **BUCKnation** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:21 pm

Baddy Chuck wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:There were definitely two blocks in the 4th that Larry went for that he wasn't going to alter and was never going to block that led to putbacks.

Weren't both of them Anthony Davis who wasn't even Larry's guy though?

Anderson. Same thing though.

skones · Post #93 » by **skones** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:26 pm

upnorthfan wrote:The whole game I was thinking Dunleavy in how he kept us in it, so I am staying with him.

Question: My son just moved to Milwaukee, and he has satelite TV. He said he couldn't get the game last night. How can he start getting the game? He lives in St Francis.

I could always cut him a deal with ATT Uverse.

RiotPunch · Post #94 » by **RiotPunch** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:29 pm

This was an awesome game to be at. The BC was as loud as I've heard it in a long time, and the brand of basketball we played was very fun to watch.

Max Green · Post #95 » by **Max Green** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:37 pm

I remember those plays, what happened was it looked like Udoh was beat on the play, forcing Larry to step up and help except Udoh was able to recover and both Udoh and Sanders ended up being caught in the air going for the block and whoever Sanders man was would get the rebound and either tip it in or get a quick dunk.