ESPN Insider rumors/speculation

[ReasonablySober]

And again, I'M NOT EVEN SAYING I'D MAKE THE DEAL.

But it isn't because Gortat sucks or is awful or whatever other hyperbole people are insanely throwing around. I simply want to remain young.

[ReasonablySober]

He'd be an immediate upgrade over Dalembert on both ends.

Yep, but:

1. We don't have to start Dalembert.

But we will.

[Ayt]

Defense is half the game though. That's why I'm arguing that guys like Afflalo and Matthews are under-rated. I just don't think defense is given nearly enough weight when NBA players are being rated. Scorers who don't defend get way too much credit.

Also, I guess it really is all about differences in expectations for Harris and Henson. We've seen so many young guys start out promising in the past 10 years, but we don't realize how flawed they are until we ask them to be cornerstones. At some point early in their careers, Mo, TJ, CV, Yi, Gadz, and Bell all showed much more promise than they ultimately delivered on. You could argue that Jennings and Ersan are on the same trajectory as well. So yeah, I'm definitely skeptical about expecting recent late lotto picks to turn out good just because they've flashed some potential. It's a long, hard road from showing potential to actually delivering. I have no doubt that Matthews and Afflalo could be reliable assets as starters on a contender. Harris and Henson at this point only have value based on potential.

We're comparing Harris and Henson to Gadzuric and Bell now?

That is taken horribly out of context. I used that example to illustrate the fact that very often a player shows some promise very early on in his NBA career and never gets much better. Young players aren't held to a very high standard in terms of what we expect from them, so a guy like Gadz who flies around the court getting blocks and rebounds and dunks but generally still not making a big difference overall gets a free pass for all his defects when he's young but won't anymore when he gets older. I'm not sold on Harris being able to improve a lot on defense because the fact is that very many offense-minded players never do.

Harris is the 11th youngest guy in the NBA and it is his second season. How often is a player that young anywhere close to effective defensively?

Beyond that, he has a very good build for his position. We aren't talking about a guy who is undersized or who plays like a pussy. Tobes plays a physical game and has an old school, rock solid build for the position. I'd say he has the body of a guy who can be a plus defender at SF. His footwork is awful. He also tends to overplay every read. He can be faked out horribly by pump fakes. A guy can make a jab step and Tobes will jump to cover the drive to that side only to let the guy blow by him to the opposite side.

He plays like a guy who is very young who is used to guarding guys who play a big man role. Skiles mentioned it recently. Chasing guys through screens is new to him. Closing out on guys with quickness is new. Dealing with all the jab steps and fakes that SFs in the NBA have is new.

Tobes is a very smart basketball player. He also has a strong build for a SF that he knows how to use. He's a bad defender right now, but I would bet that he actually ends up being a plus defender by the time he reaches 23-25 because he understands the game and he's a physical player with a build that will allow him to bully guys at the position.

I'd compare him very favorably to Paul Pierce, who turned himself into a very effective defensive player after a handful of years in the league despite being a defensive liability early in his career. Tobes is smart enough and physical enough to become a pesky on the ball defender. He is actually already pretty good in his understanding of team D.

[LUKE23]

Right, but I also disagree with the notion he makes us significantly better than playing our youth. That's where we disagree. I think he'd be the third best defensive C on the roster.

[LUKE23]

But we will.

Probably, but he'll play around 15-17 mpg. Possibly less once Moute is back. Also could easily see him being moved at the deadline.

[paul]

And again, I'M NOT EVEN SAYING I'D MAKE THE DEAL.

But it isn't because Gortat sucks or is awful or whatever other hyperbole people are insanely throwing around. I simply want to remain young.

Pretty sure you're the only one who's thrown that level of hyperbole around.

[Nebula1]

I think the Bucks should trade Moute/Lamb for another scorer

[Ayt]

He'd be an immediate upgrade over Dalembert on both ends.

Yep, but:

1. We don't have to start Dalembert.

But we will.

Meh. Daly is averaging only 16.8 MPG compared to 24.4 for Larry and 20.6 for Epke. His days are numbered. Throw in a healthy Henson, and Daly is going to be fighting for minutes over the next couple weeks.

[Ayt]

And again, I'M NOT EVEN SAYING I'D MAKE THE DEAL.

But it isn't because Gortat sucks or is awful or whatever other hyperbole people are insanely throwing around. I simply want to remain young.

Pretty sure you're the only one who's thrown that level of hyperbole around.

Where I come from we call this type of argument a strawman. I think a random nub with like 200 posts that know one knows did call Gortat awful, but I don't care enough to verify because it is such an idiotic position. Gortat is obviously a quality C in the current NBA.

[Ayt]

I think the Bucks should trade Moute/Lamb for another scorer

Who would give us an efficient scorer for those two?

[H2tObes]

He wasn't playing with Nash this season when he he put up 23/10 on 10-14 shooting. Chipped in seven blocks, too. Or 16/16 on 7-13 with 5 blocks or 14/11/4 on 7-12.

His Net Points per 100 Possessions right now is +15.6. Dalembert's at -26.5.

He's had a few crappy games and he's had some very good games. Like the Dwyer article illustrates, he hasn't been a focal point for the offense this season and he's got a guy in Beasley taking his shots away.

Some of you guys are crazy.

Calm down man, pretty much everyone is saying they wouldn't make this trade because it makes 0 sense from a team direction standpoint. No one is saying Gortat isn't a good starting center.

[ReasonablySober]

And again, I'M NOT EVEN SAYING I'D MAKE THE DEAL.

But it isn't because Gortat sucks or is awful or whatever other hyperbole people are insanely throwing around. I simply want to remain young.

Pretty sure you're the only one who's thrown that level of hyperbole around.

Uh...

Gortat sucks. Let me add my name to this list of 'hell no'

Gortat is garbage, he is made to look decent by playing on such an awful team. His weak Air Jordan tattoo alone should nix this deal.

[ReasonablySober]

He wasn't playing with Nash this season when he he put up 23/10 on 10-14 shooting. Chipped in seven blocks, too. Or 16/16 on 7-13 with 5 blocks or 14/11/4 on 7-12.

His Net Points per 100 Possessions right now is +15.6. Dalembert's at -26.5.

He's had a few crappy games and he's had some very good games. Like the Dwyer article illustrates, he hasn't been a focal point for the offense this season and he's got a guy in Beasley taking his shots away.

Some of you guys are crazy.

Calm down man, pretty much everyone is saying they wouldn't make this trade because it makes 0 sense from a team direction standpoint. No one is saying Gortat isn't a good starting center.

You should probably read the thread a little closer.

[H2tObes]

He wasn't playing with Nash this season when he he put up 23/10 on 10-14 shooting. Chipped in seven blocks, too. Or 16/16 on 7-13 with 5 blocks or 14/11/4 on 7-12.

His Net Points per 100 Possessions right now is +15.6. Dalembert's at -26.5.

He's had a few crappy games and he's had some very good games. Like the Dwyer article illustrates, he hasn't been a focal point for the offense this season and he's got a guy in Beasley taking his shots away.

Some of you guys are crazy.

Calm down man, pretty much everyone is saying they wouldn't make this trade because it makes 0 sense from a team direction standpoint. No one is saying Gortat isn't a good starting center.

You should probably read the thread a little closer.

Maybe one person says that. You have probably the biggest exaggeration in the whole thread by saying the Suns could get a lot more for Gortat.

[Ayt]

And again, I'M NOT EVEN SAYING I'D MAKE THE DEAL.

But it isn't because Gortat sucks or is awful or whatever other hyperbole people are insanely throwing around. I simply want to remain young.

Pretty sure you're the only one who's thrown that level of hyperbole around.

Uh...

Gortat sucks. Let me add my name to this list of 'hell no'

Gortat is garbage, he is made to look decent by playing on such an awful team. His weak Air Jordan tattoo alone should nix this deal.

You don't want to argue with those two. Neb probably still thinks Kobe is the best player in the league. The other guy sighted a tattoo as his closing argument.

[Sigra]

How in the name of God is this thread 12 pages? Who is trolling?

[paul]

And again, I'M NOT EVEN SAYING I'D MAKE THE DEAL.

But it isn't because Gortat sucks or is awful or whatever other hyperbole people are insanely throwing around. I simply want to remain young.

Pretty sure you're the only one who's thrown that level of hyperbole around.

Uh...

Gortat sucks. Let me add my name to this list of 'hell no'

Gortat is garbage, he is made to look decent by playing on such an awful team. His weak Air Jordan tattoo alone should nix this deal.

Fair enough, I'll rephrase. I think the majority opinion in the thread is that Gortat is a good player despite having his numbers 'Nashed' the past few seasons, who would be of little use to us and make little sense to us in our current situation - particularly when it means giving up two high quality young players in return.

Despite me talking in this thread about Gortat having hugely inflated numbers I still like him as an above average C in the league, he's clearly not a 16/10 guy without being delivered most of those points on a silver platter but I still like him. He'd just be largely redundant here.

[CanadaBucks]

[

Fair enough, I'll rephrase. I think the majority opinion in the thread is that Gortat is a good player despite having his numbers 'Nashed' the past few seasons, who would be of little use to us and make little sense to us in our current situation - particularly when it means giving up two high quality young players in return.

Despite me talking in this thread about Gortat having hugely inflated numbers I still like him as an above average C in the league, he's clearly not a 16/10 guy without being delivered most of those points on a silver platter but I still like him. He'd just be largely redundant here.

I can endorse this statement

[ampd]

I doubt that many of the other offers are plausible either. Highly doubt the Thunder give up Perkins, Jeremy Lamb, AND a 1st for him either.

[CanadaBucks]

Here's the story in regard to Afflalo's defense.(FWIW) from BH and Steve von Horn

The persuasive power of prevailing reputation took a major hit for me when I looked up Arron Afflalo's defensive performance from the 2011-12 NBA season.

First, some context: during the '09-10 and '10-11 seasons, Afflalo earned a combined total of seven points in the "others receiving votes" category for All-Defensive honors. During that same span, LRMAM collected 10 total points, Andrew Bogut tallied nine and Andre Iguodala managed 17. Afflalo entered the '11-12 season with an established reputation as a top perimeter defender, a trait that helped him land a juicy five-year, $43 million deal with the Denver Nuggets.

Without looking at the stats, I'd venture to say most people still think Afflalo is a top defender -- he's earned the trust of NBA fans; he's in the club now. In a mind-blowing twist, the former UCLA star allowed opponents to produce a whopping 0.98 points per possession over 779 plays last season, which qualified him as the No. 422 defender in the league and among the worst wings in the NBA, according to MySynergySports.com. How did something so awful happen to a proven perimeter defender so often? Maybe it's also worth asking why have the Nuggets been a better defense with Afflalo on the bench?

The point here is not to pick on Afflalo, it's to try and dig at some of the questions and assumptions that make evaluating perimeter defenders so difficult. The obvious response to the Afflalo questions is to say elite perimeter defenders are asked to go man-to-man against the best scorers in the NBA every night, so individual numbers won't ever look great. That makes a bit of sense, but there still has to be some measuring bar.