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Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/Monta Shooting %)

Moderators: MickeyDavis, paulpressey25

Will the Bucks breakup the Swag backcourt?

We will have a trade on or before January 15th
5
7%
We will have a trade by the trade deadline of February 21st
22
31%
The team won't trade either guy
44
62%
 
Total votes : 71

Post#1 Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/Mont
Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:31 am by paulpressey25

I know this is being discussed in other places but thought at least a thread on it might get the attention of our swag local media. At least Ted Davis was discussing it the other night and it seemed like Jon Barry was fixated on it during the game last night.

A poll question is above. I chose the January 15th date to reflect that trades generally aren't made over the Holidays and that a trade may involve Ersan who isn't eligible to be dealt until January 15th.

Luke highlights it well with the stats below.

LUKE23 wrote:
59 players in the NBA scoring 15.0+ PPG, rank in TS:

#52: Jennings
#58: Ellis


We all see the backcourt isn't working. What date will the Bucks?
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Post#2 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:38 am by LUKE23

Given the volume at the inefficiency these two guys bring, there is almost zero way to configure the rest of the roster around them to put together an even average (15th or so in the NBA offense), without both of these guys upping their effiicency massively. You can't keep these guys together, tweak something else, and massively improve. These guys are going to take over 50% of the shots almost every night. I know people don't think it's that simple and basketball isn't all stats, but in this case, it really is that simple. Shoot half your shots at a horrible % = below average offense.

Most maddening is most knew this coming in. Now maybe Ellis is below where some thought he'd be, but it doesn't change the fact this was a horribly inefficient pairing and Hammond deserves a ton of blame for thinking it could work.
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Post#3 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:43 am by ReasonablySober

This was from yesterday on SI.com.

Overall, the offense hasn't been pretty: The Bucks are 24th in points per 100 possessions and 23rd in shooting (43.3 percent). Three-point shooting, which Milwaukee hoped would be a strength, has bottomed out: The Bucks are connecting on 32.8 percent, good for just 28th.

In an attempt to maximize the talents of his freewheeling guards, coach Scott Skiles, scouts say, has simply taken the reins off the offense.

"Skiles is letting them play," a Western Conference scout said. "They are getting it down the floor quick and running random pick-and-rolls, getting up early shots. If a guy has it going, he lets it go a little bit more. He is encouraging them to push it and get transition baskets. With Skiles, you give him a group of players, he will figure out what works for them. And with this team, it's just letting them play."

Said an Eastern Conference scout: "When Jennings was a rookie, this wouldn't have worked. I think he matured some. He understands how to play off of people a little better."

For all the concern about Milwaukee's defense, the Bucks have been surprisingly stout, ranking 10th in points allowed per possession. They gamble more, with Jennings (2.35 steals per game) and Ellis (1.52) leading a team that ranks in the top five in steals (8.8) and turnovers forced (16.8). A revamped front line that added John Henson, Samuel Dalembert and Joel Przybilla to a unit that already included Larry Sanders and Ekpe Udoh has helped the Bucks improve from 18th in points allowed in the paint (41.4) last season to 12th (40) this year.
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Post#4 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:48 am by paulpressey25

I saw that article DB. I'm sort of stunned that anyone thinks this is working.
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Post#5 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:52 am by ReasonablySober

I am too.
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Post#6 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:54 am by LUKE23

I think the "plan" was to use TO's to fuel our pace to make up for our halfcourt inefficiency. What they blatantly miscalculated was the level of the turnovers we'd force and how bad these two guys would shoot the ball.

Outside of the last 30 games of FTD, this team has never had a good offense, nor has it had players that should make it a good offense. This management doesn't understand how to build a good offense.
Jim Paschke ‏@Paschketball 6 Apr
I just wish everyone could enjoy the ride. I see both sides believe me. Seed and situation never concern me. It's in or out. That's all


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Post#7 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:55 am by JBucks

I wouldn't be surprised if Hammond and co. are no longer trusted to make trades of any type. They stay.

On another note, where did the whole swag thing originate? I get the term, but who started it?
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Post#8 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:56 am by upnorthfan

The problem I see with this roster besides just having average players up and down the roster, is there is no low post presence. If Scarry Larry is your low post presence, you know you're in trouble.

Tobias Harris is the best low post player we have, and he is relegated to the bench. When he did have his opportunity all he did was stand in the corner behind the arc bassically waiting for the pass that never came.

Epke and Larry in the low post is not going to get it done. With all the "big men" on the roster you would think one of them would be at least okay with his back to the basket, but nope, they are not.

No low post presence coupled with a two guard who is small, turnover prone and a volume shooter with horrible shooting percentage's is not a winning recipe for winning in the NBA.

I did a thread on this board years ago entitled (I think) Curlys Fool's Gold. Fast forward several years, we are still panning, finding only Fool's Gold, with no end in site.
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Post#9 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:57 am by Thunder Muscle

Should something be done? Yes. Will something be done? I would be surprised. I could be wrong but I just see us riding it out with these guys. I'd like to be a fly on the wall in the Bucks offices to really gauge what they feel about Jennings & Ellis.
TBD
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Post#10 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:58 am by ReasonablySober

I don't know what you specifically mean by low post presence (I'm assuming you mean offensive threat in the post?) but I actually like our front-court quite a bit. It's our back-court that's a train-wreck.
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Post#11 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:00 am by DocHoliday

I don't think they trade either of them unless someone calls us with an offer so dumb our front office can't refuse. My guess is though that they still think we can make the playoffs with this squad the way it is and any changes might push us over the edge into the abyss (out of the playoff hunt). Since we can't play halfcourt offense we get crushed in the playoffs, and then you have Monta refusing to opt out because he won't get paid but demanding a trade, and Jennings wanting 14mil and being upset with the team and demanding a trade and both are at their lowest value. WINNING
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Post#12 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:01 am by LUKE23

Yeah, I like the frontcourt talent on this team a ton. Harris, Moute, Sanders, Udoh, Henson, Ilyasova, all 26 or younger. We're fine there. Yes, it would be nice to have a post guy, but unless this post guy is getting Zach Randolph type volume, it doesn't matter if the backcourt isn't broken up.

There is literally nothing you can do to put together a good offense with this backcourt.
Jim Paschke ‏@Paschketball 6 Apr
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Post#13 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:03 am by Run-MKE 311

I don't think there is any question that something needs to be done here, I have lost a lot of confidence in Monta especially. I always thought of Monta as a scorer, not really as a shooter, I think it is important to note a difference between the two. I saw Monta as basically being buckets, whether it meant getting to line alot via attacking the rim, or finding a more solid jumper. Either way, I felt he would be a consistent scoring threat that would take pressure off of Brandon.

Brandon has just struggled beyond belief himself, he had not found the ability to lock in his jumper during the course of game and due to his size, cannot continue to just go low, while getting hammered. I am not sure what the answer is with Brandon, it would be a more simple solution if there was not the degree of raw talent there that you have.

Test the market, see what the options are, but either way we are going to have to find scoring on a constant basis from someplace. When the majority of your scoring is dependent on this type of backcourt, things will get ugly.
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Post#14 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:06 am by DocHoliday

Our frontcourt is fine, back to the basket guys don't grow on trees or fall from the sky. How many teams in the NBA have a Zach Randolph type player? If you have a guard that can finish at the rim driving the lane he draws a double and can dump it off to Larry, etc for the easy finish. Our bigs can't create for themselves in the paint but a good PG can create for them. Ellis does it once in a while, and Beno was doing it a lot this season before he went down.
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Post#15 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:06 am by paulpressey25

I think the national media is so used to seeing our record be 7-15 at this point that the 13-11 stuns them. So they just assume this is working. That can be the only explanation.

For what it's worth, I voted that we keep both Jennings and Monta through year end. That goes with my belief that Kohl at this point doesn't really comprehend anything and doesn't seem to be closely involved in positioning the franchise for greater success on the court. As long as he's entertained during home games that seems to be sufficient. Could be entirely wrong on that point and Kohl is talking to Hammond and Skiles daily on things.
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Post#16 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:06 am by Thunder Muscle

What "win now" player would you target to take the SG position? Realistically speaking. I know that Afflalo has been mentioned, Reddick, and I see Rip Hamilton is on the block. I mean we're not going to trade for someone unproven like that Burks from Utah.

I don't want to turn this into a trade proposal thread, but am curious what names people would want and that are possibly realistic options. Kinda wish we would've threw a bunch of cash at Ray Allen this offseason as a stopgap SG. I know he's past his prime but he is the kind of player we need and it would've maybe re-energized the fan base a bit.
TBD
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Post#17 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:12 am by DocHoliday

Brandon Jennings, Milwaukee Bucks: One way or the other Bucks guard Brandon Jennings is going to get paid. The question becomes will Milwaukee bite the bullet and pay him, or will they simply concede that he’s going to cost them more than maybe they believe he’s worth.

At the extension deadline in October, Jennings camp watched as guards like Ty Lawson and Stephen Curry sign $11 and $12 per year pacts and tried to squeeze the Bucks into an even bigger deal. The Bucks passed and made it clear that they would issue a qualifying offer sheet on Jennings in July and retain the right to match whatever he’s offered. That still looks to be the thinking.

The more likely trade target in Milwaukee is Monta Ellis, mainly because he can opt out of his deal and hit unrestricted free agency.

League sources say there are a handful of teams with interest in both players, so Milwaukee will have some options to consider.

The other variable to keep in mind is that almost everyone in Milwaukee’s leadership is on the clock with ownership, as most are in the final year of their contract.

It’s been said ‘Playoffs or bust’ for the Bucks, and right now they are 13-11, sitting in the fifth seed in the East.

As long as the Bucks are playing well it seems they will remain intact at least as it pertains to Jennings and Ellis. If they crater before the deadline that could change.

The Bucks feel like they have control of Jennings, and when it comes to Ellis they feel like they can offer more money than anyone is likely to offer, so they are not as afraid of that. But, there isn’t a whole lot of tomorrow thinking going on in Milwaukee, mainly because they have to make the playoffs in order for tomorrow to be leaderships’ problem.
Read more at http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-am-the-nb ... 6j8Rt9u.99

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Post#18 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:23 am by upnorthfan

DrugBust wrote:I don't know what you specifically mean by low post presence (I'm assuming you mean offensive threat in the post?) but I actually like our front-court quite a bit. It's our back-court that's a train-wreck.


When the jump shots aren't falling, we have no back to the basket down low type BIG to run the offense through. Get off quality close in shots that either fall a high majority of the time, or draws a foul.

We do not have that. No those guys don't grow on trees, but other teams (perennial playoiff teams) seem to find them.

Gasol, Speights, Randolph weren't drafted by Memphis, yet they found a way to collect a montrous front court.

The Lakers Pau Gasol and Dwight Howard weren't drafted by their team either, nor was David West, Kevin Garnett, on and on the list goes of quality teams that have awesome BIGS that obtained them other than the draft.

This philosophy of draft and devlope works a hundred miles north in a different sport, but not here in Milwaukee (basketball). When Hammond took the job he beat the drum of aquiring assets to use to make the team better. What assets do we have to make an upgrade four plus years (or is it five) into his regime?
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Post#19 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:24 am by EastSideBucksFan

N8Frog wrote:What "win now" player would you target to take the SG position? Realistically speaking. I know that Afflalo has been mentioned, Reddick, and I see Rip Hamilton is on the block. I mean we're not going to trade for someone unproven like that Burks from Utah.

I don't want to turn this into a trade proposal thread, but am curious what names people would want and that are possibly realistic options. Kinda wish we would've threw a bunch of cash at Ray Allen this offseason as a stopgap SG. I know he's past his prime but he is the kind of player we need and it would've maybe re-energized the fan base a bit.



Ray loved his time in Milwaukee. But wanted a chance to go for another ring.

We had no shot of getting him back in a Bucks uniform.
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Post#20 Re: Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/
Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:29 am by DocHoliday

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/features/rumors
It has been widely assumed that Monta Ellis will exercise his early termination option prior to June 30 so he can enter the free agent market in 2013. Ellis will make $11 million if he chooses to decline it and opt for free agency in 2014.

So far this season Ellis is struggling with his shot. He's making just 38.7 percent overall and 20.0 percent from beyond the three-point line. He still has almost four months too break out of the slump, but if he doesn't it might affect his decision regarding the early termination option.

Gery Woelfel of The Journal Times tweeted Wednesday night: "Monta Ellis' FA stock is falling by the shot. Is a measly 21% on 3s this season, not including 0-4 tonight."

Once again Ellis has time to turn it around, however he offers nothing on defense and the market for an undersized scoring shooting guard will be very soft if he can't make shots this season.

Ellis and the team could also agree to an extension, however the contracts for general manager John Hammond and head coach Scott Skiles expire in late June, which means nothing will likely be offered until the those position are settled moving into 2013-14.

-- Nick Borges
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