Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/Monta Shooting %)

[Nebula1]

You guys are going to have to accept that Ellis will likely opt-in, no different than Beno. However, he's still a guy the Bucks can trade if he does so. That's perfectly reasonable even if not desirable.

[paulpressey25]

You guys are going to have to accept that Ellis will likely opt-in, no different than Beno. However, he's still a guy the Bucks can trade if he does so. That's perfectly reasonable even if not desirable.

That's a fair point. He is still tradeable over the summer or next year. And he might actually be more tradeable over the summer if he opts in than at the trade deadline in 60 days. A team wanting scoring could figure he's worth a one full year gamble at $11 million. That might be a different group of teams versus one at the deadline who simply want help only for a playoff push but would be reluctant to trade for Ellis if they think he will be opting in for 2013-14.

The bigger problem is his shooting percentage. As noted, he's so far off his career norms right now that it is killing the Bucks on every level. If the guy simply performed to career norms or even last year, we'd have more wins and he'd be much less an issue.

[A Diddy2231]

In games against the top teams in the NBA (Memphis, LAC, Spurs, Heat) Jennings is shooting 32% and Ellis is 23%.

[Badgerlander]

Wow, Suzy Favor Hamilton...

[JBucks]

You'd think the way we're talking about this team, they're at the bottom looking up. But even worse is that they're somehow hovering around .500. And I think they have just enough to stay there in the Least. This is the depressing cycle most of us desperately want out of. Good enough not to be bad, Bad enough not to be good.

[Nebula1]

You guys are going to have to accept that Ellis will likely opt-in, no different than Beno. However, he's still a guy the Bucks can trade if he does so. That's perfectly reasonable even if not desirable.

That's a fair point. He is still tradeable over the summer or next year. And he might actually be more tradeable over the summer if he opts in than at the trade deadline in 60 days. A team wanting scoring could figure he's worth a one full year gamble at $11 million. That might be a different group of teams versus one at the deadline who simply want help only for a playoff push but would be reluctant to trade for Ellis if they think he will be opting in for 2013-14.

The bigger problem is his shooting percentage. As noted, he's so far off his career norms right now that it is killing the Bucks on every level. If the guy simply performed to career norms or even last year, we'd have more wins and he'd be much less an issue.

Yeah the %s are down, but such is the life in a Skiles system.

What bothers me is the lack of offensive rebounding Skiles puts on the floor with Jennings/Ellis. These guys miss alot and you'd think Skiles would have guys ready to rebound, but only runs Sanders as a big. I'd like to see Udoh and Sanders together, perhaps with Dunleavy (or Harris) at 3. Gives 3 perimeter scorers and 2 defensive bigs which is probably a better balance than what Skiles has been riding.

Having a third offensive option with Jennings/Ellis isn't a bad idea either and clearly Daniels and Moute aren't real options.

[coolhandluke121]

Wow, Suzy Favor Hamilton...

Weird place to insert this (haha), but yeah... that shocked me.

[ampd]

I almost think you need to trade Jennings for a guy that compliments Monta in order to get Monta's trade value up and either deal him or get him to opt out.

I could get behind this, except if we do it this way its so hard to find anyone that fits the bill.

If we aren't going to play Monta at PG, we need a big PG who can defend the 2, shoot the 3, run the offense, and play off the ball when Monta has it in his hands. Or if we are going to play him at PG, we need a 2 who can do those things who is a very good passer for a 2.

Who are the realistic targets that could be acquired for Jennings or in a package with Jennings? Obviously Iguodala would be the best one but that ship sailed this past off season.

Brandon Knight?
Redick?
Evan Turner?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws

That changes if you plan to just play him in a traditional PG role obviously.

[Treebeard]

I read about the real limitations of trading these two guys, and I can't wait for the Pitchers and Catchers to report.....

What an **** mess.

[Chapter29]

I voted that we wont trade either. Not because that is what I want, but rather that we will be competing for that low seed playoff spot and will always have hope....either hope to make the playoffs or hope to win a series.

We may make a trade, but my guess is it wont be one of the swag twins.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

This management doesn't understand how to build a good offense.

management doesnt build a good offense. coachs do. we havent brought in efficient guys, but it shouldnt be lost that everybody gets here and dramatically regresses either. if these scorers weve gone and gotten thru the years could even just perform at their most recent career norms we'd be SIGNIFICANTLY better than weve been with the way the rest of these role players on the team are put together.

skiles is a role players dream coach. hes a nightmare destination for the guy whose used to getting a few open looks.

[Thunder Muscle]

Wow, Suzy Favor Hamilton...

For the curious: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olympics- ... --oly.html

Whoa.

[Nebula1]

Wow, Suzy Favor Hamilton...

For the curious: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olympics- ... --oly.html

Whoa.

The world needs escorts.. what can you say?

[oscar-fan]

Before we push the panic button about BJ/ME, let's all take a deep breath.

We are 13-11, and square in playoff contention. We are not 7-17 on a 6 game losing streak.

EVERY team has its issues. You just don't hear about them because this board is, necessarily, Milwaukee-centric.

In their defense, we have virtually NO low-post game to complement them. No big guy to feed, draw a double-team, and kick back out for a clean look at a three. So BJ/ME are forced to create shots, often difficult ones because of their lack of size.

Do they take bad shots? Yes. Do I wish they were more patient? Yes. But if we can develop a post presence, the value of BJ/ME will rise significantly.

So the blame is not solely on BJ/ME - far from it IMHO.

[Thunder Muscle]

The biggest question about Ellis for me is whether he is in a slump or if he's on the decline. Shooting wise (FG%, eFG%, TS%) this is the worst he's been in his entire career. So I think this goes 2 ways...

1. At some point he starts shooting at a higher percentage, gets his TS% over 50, and the overall efficiency of the team improves.
2. He goes to the rim less and less, struggles to finish, settles for jumpers, and his #'s are who he is now.

He's 27 so I would like to think he has a few years left in his prime. If you watch some of his earlier Golden State highlights, they are all of him getting to the rack and finishing. He had another gear and put himself in position for high percentage shots. I still feel he has the speed/quickness, so for me it's either after 7 years in the league he's shying away from the contact in the lane thus he is settling for jumpers AND taking more acrobatic shots (ala lower percentage) around the rim. If that's the case, you have to trade this guy ASAP b/c his value is just going to continue to fall. But if it's just a slump, maybe we can hold hope he'll start improving his shooting #'s.

[InsideOut]

This management doesn't understand how to build a good offense.

management doesnt build a good offense. coachs do. we havent brought in efficient guys, but it shouldnt be lost that everybody gets here and dramatically regresses either. if these scorers weve gone and gotten thru the years could even just perform at their most recent career norms we'd be SIGNIFICANTLY better than weve been with the way the rest of these role players on the team are put together.

skiles is a role players dream coach. hes a nightmare destination for the guy whose used to getting a few open looks.

So why do you think they regress?

It is pretty obvious that most of these “offense” guys Hammond brought in were on the downside of their careers, had been getting worse before they got here and were players that other teams were desperate to get rid of. These were the reasons several of us gave in explaining why we didn’t like the signings at the time.

It seems obvious to me that if you trade for a guy that is getting worse and another team is desperate to get rid of and no other teams want then your expectations for that player should be he will continue to regress and NOT continue to play at career norms. You also need to look if the guy was in a contract year. It also helps if you realize you are asking a green light scorer to now fit into another system and share with chucking BJ. KG and Allen both saw the stats drop when they went to Boston. They were no longer in a system where they didn't have to share. Great players like them will adapt but known knucklehead players (Maggette, Ellis, Salmons, Gooden, Jackson) won't adapt and you'll see regression and maybe bad attitudes. These were the likely outcomes of these moves and why it was pointed out that these guys weren’t Skiles type players.

You'll know Hammond brought in a good player when he gets a guy where the other team didn't want to lose him, that it was out there that several other teams were trying to get the guy and we had to give up someone that we view as a great asset. It is irrational to think we are getting someone good when we had to give up damaged, injured or crappy players to get the guy. Another tip is to look at what the players did after they left here. If they continued the slide it might be due to the facts mentioned earlier and not that the coach is an idiot. RJ, Maggette, Salmons, Jackson (soon to be Ellis, Gooden) all left and never went back to career norms. That is what you get when you trade for these guys at this stage of their career. Hammond would do well to figure this out sooner than later so he could stop making the same mistake over and over and over... He needs to figure out the 30 games of Salmons was the 1 in a 100 exception and not the rule.

[averageposter]

I think the thing that bothers me the most is that in years past when asked about Jennings struggling to shoot and shooting often while struggling to shoot you heard answers that made some sense about Jennings being really the only guy who could carry the load, only guy who can get his own shot and all that. To a point that was true, wasn't the whole picture but it was true.

So the team brings in a guy like Ellis who is a curious choice because he also struggles with efficiency. Perhaps worse than that the two paired together create a defensive shortcoming that necessitates playing two, one way defensive players at the 4 and 5. So now you are virtually assuring that the two inefficient perimeter players are going to have to carry the load again anyway.

Dunleavy helps, and Ersan could if he weren't going through whatever it is, but the bottom line really is that between the players whose defense is needed to cover for the perimeter D and the fact that Ellis is just as inefficient you end up back at funneling all your offense to two inefficient guys anyway. If you were trying to fix that problem you couldn't have approached it any worse.

[coolhandluke121]

This really puts things in perspective:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-o ... int-guards

You have to realize that with the no-hand-check rule and other changes to the game, it's easy to look like the star of the team when you're a pg. Even if you're a total liability more often than not, which Jennings is.

If you can't do anything else - defend well on a consistent basis, make teammates better, be efficient, etc - then being a scoring pg with mediocre efficiency or worse is the easiest role to play in the NBA nowadays. There are literally dozens of players who easily outperform Jennings right now, and there will be a few more in almost every draft.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

So why do you think they regress?.........................[too long to quote it all]

i get all that you said. and it accounts for some portion of it. common sense would dictate that it isnt all on the players tho. theres too many, at all ages, who have come here and immediately sucked. i mean IMMEDIATELY..... im talking like sucked bottom 5 bad in the league and immediately. levels no where even close to previous production in just their very last year wherever else they were.

then you add great shooters like how meeks time went...like doron lamb and how hes going. people get here and forget how to shoot. like cant even keep their nose above water.

something is going on. its not just the personnel. the personnel moves can be questioned and i'll stand less in the way of that then ever.... but thats not what im trying to point out here.

[LUKE23]

management doesnt build a good offense. coachs do.

No. Coaches develop offensive scheme. GM's acquire offensive PLAYERS. The latter are the primary driver in any offense. Have you watched Houston's offense? Do you think they have a great scheme? No. They basically just iso the hell out of Harden and run a ton of pick and rolls, something most on this forum could develop. Houston is 8th in offense.

This roster is a talent, efficiency problem. It was before the season and it is now. The frontcourt D is good, that's the one aspect of the team Hammond got right. The offense was built to fail and it's zero shock that it is.