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Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffle.)

Moderators: MickeyDavis, paulpressey25

Post#41 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 12:27 pm by europa

Epicurus wrote:I believe that there is considerable variation in the decisions made by gms, as opposed by coaches. Thus believe the NBA is first a players' league, but next a gm league. Thus when a franchise is problemmatic, of the nonplayer moves would first be getting rid of the gm and not the coach.


This is the same pattern Kohl used with Stotts. Coach got fired, GM stayed, cheap already-on-staff assistant was promoted. That's why I always believed Skiles would go before Hammond.
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Post#42 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 12:29 pm by MickeyDavis

I couldn't agree more Epi.

And don't forget it was Kohl who gave Dunleavy an 8 year coaching contract before he hired a GM. When he couldn't find anyone who wanted to be GM with a long term coach already in place he gave the job to Dunleavy.
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Post#43 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 12:45 pm by GHOSTofSIKMA

factors that determine whether a small market gm is "good" or not

1st would be solid drafting... and this trumps almost everything else combined
2nd would be effective cap management... ie not making bad use of salary via fa or trades
3rd would be low level cost effective fa signings who can contribute within the framework of #2
4th would be turning positive assets into better assets via trade

the things that wouldnt even be on the radar would be bigtime free agent signings or trading junk for other teams junk that becomes needle moving contributors. that just doesnt happen enough for small market teams to assess it on any radars.

hammonds made some mistakes but he could have done alot worse too. id say hes been better than average. i support a 2 year extension with a new coach on board. any more than 2 years seems like too much.
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Post#44 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 12:49 pm by LUKE23

I'd say drafting is #1 if you're under a rebuild mandate. Under a win now mandate where you're continually drafting 10 or worse, it becomes less paramount, but still important.
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Post#45 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 1:03 pm by InsideOut

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:factors that determine whether a small market gm is "good" or not

1st would be solid drafting... and this trumps almost everything else combined
2nd would be effective cap management... ie not making bad use of salary via fa or trades
3rd would be low level cost effective fa signings who can contribute within the framework of #2
4th would be turning positive assets into better assets via trade

the things that wouldnt even be on the radar would be bigtime free agent signings or trading junk for other teams junk that becomes needle moving contributors. that just doesnt happen enough for small market teams to assess it on any radars.

hammonds made some mistakes but he could have done alot worse too. id say hes been better than average. i support a 2 year extension with a new coach on board. any more than 2 years seems like too much.


One winning season out of 4 is above average?! Could you walk us through the logic that got you to the conclusion that winning one season out of 4 and having an overall losing record is ABOVE average?
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Post#46 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 1:17 pm by emunney

Sleepy51 wrote:Al no-sHarrington


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Post#47 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 1:28 pm by GHOSTofSIKMA

LUKE23 wrote:I'd say drafting is #1 if you're under a rebuild mandate. Under a win now mandate where you're continually drafting 10 or worse, it becomes less paramount, but still important.


a win now mandate for a small market is damn near an impossible mountain unless youre acquiring desireable assets via the draft. where do the others come from?

and this is why hammonds tenure hasnt been nearly as bad as the reflections from the bubble that gets spouted off here.

i cant wait to have a coach that develops and turns loose all these kids weve stockpiled. i think it could change some perceptions around here win or lose.
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Post#48 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 1:30 pm by europa

Even if we stipulate Kohl's meddling as primary problem No. 1, only one winning season, three seasons under 40 wins and no playoff series victories in 4+ seasons is bad.
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Post#49 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 1:37 pm by GHOSTofSIKMA

europa wrote:Even if we stipulate Kohl's meddling as primary problem No. 1, only one winning season, three seasons under 40 wins and no playoff series victories in 4+ seasons is bad.


so what with our record. thats on kohl and what hammond inherited. a mandate of win now while rebuilding with existing franchise players who couldnt stay on the goddam court.. what did you expect?

bottom line is the rebuild part of this has worked. at least to the degree you can rebuild and win at the same time without any top 5 picks......which is a crazy approach. we should have blown it up to tank, or tried to win now by dealing off our picks.

regardless we are where we are. we have a young roster core of...

jennings
lamb
mam/ harris
ersan/ henson
sanders/ udoh

thats 8 legit guys with some value around this league below the age of 25. that group alone right now is probably capable of an 8 seed in the east with just marginal help. we need a #1. our only option for attaining one with a win now mandate was acquiring a group like that and then waiting.
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Post#50 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 1:39 pm by europa

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
europa wrote:Even if we stipulate Kohl's meddling as primary problem No. 1, only one winning season, three seasons under 40 wins and no playoff series victories in 4+ seasons is bad.


so what with our record. thats on kohl and what hammond inherited. a mandate of win now while rebuilding with existing franchise players who couldnt stay on the goddam court.. what did you expect?


Better than what we've seen to date. I don't think that was an unrealistic expectation - especially after FTD when Hammond really seemed to have things figured out.

I like Hammond more than Skiles. I think if left to his own devices Hammond could be at least a respectable NBA GM. But at the end of the day this is a bottom line business and the Bucks' bottom line has been bad under Hammond. We all know the primary problem is Kohl but until that problem goes away the head coach and GM need to be judged on what this team accomplishes. Skiles failed and received a fitting fate today. Barring a miraculous playoff run I think Hammond deserves the same fate although as I posted earlier I'm not surprised he's going to avoid it.
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Post#51 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 1:40 pm by InsideOut

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
LUKE23 wrote:I'd say drafting is #1 if you're under a rebuild mandate. Under a win now mandate where you're continually drafting 10 or worse, it becomes less paramount, but still important.


a win now mandate for a small market is damn near an impossible mountain unless youre acquiring desireable assets via the draft. where do the others come from?

and this is why hammonds tenure hasnt been nearly as bad as the reflections from the bubble that gets spouted off here.

i cant wait to have a coach that develops and turns loose all these kids weve stockpiled. i think it could change some perceptions around here win or lose.


Ask small market Memphis how they got guys without drafting them.

Develop like Skiles did with Bogut, Sanders, Ersan and Moute. You told me yesterday that around the league guys like BJ, Ersan, Sanders were viewed as top 15 guys at their position and Moute would generate all kinds of interest if we traded him. Now you make it sound like Skiles did a bad job developing the youth. So which is it? Did Skiles do a bad job at developing youth or did he turn a bunch of later picks into guys viewed around the league as top 15 players at their position?
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Post#52 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 1:43 pm by LUKE23

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
regardless we are where we are. we have a young roster core of...

jennings
lamb
mam/ harris
ersan/ henson
sanders/ udoh

thats 8 legit guys with some value around this league below the age of 25. that group alone right now is probably capable of an 8 seed in the east with just marginal help. we need a #1. our only option for attaining one with a win now mandate was acquiring a group like that and then waiting.


I like our core for where they were picked, however, I don't know there is one all-star appearance in there. We're still "only" a James Harden away, like many teams out there.
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Post#53 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 3:35 pm by DanoMac

Hammond should not be extended. I was the one who pretty much drafted Doron Lamb, so I'm sorry fellow RealGM'ers if that doesn't work out. Lol.
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Post#54 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 3:36 pm by europa

DanoMac wrote:Hammond should not be extended. I was the one who pretty much drafted Doron Lamb, so I'm sorry fellow RealGM'ers if that doesn't work out. Lol.


He's generally looked terrible in the games I've seen so you might want to back away from that. ;)
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Post#55 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 3:39 pm by Treebeard

europa wrote:
DanoMac wrote:Hammond should not be extended. I was the one who pretty much drafted Doron Lamb, so I'm sorry fellow RealGM'ers if that doesn't work out. Lol.


He's generally looked terrible in the games I've seen so you might want to back away from that. ;)


I thought Lamb looked better earlier in the season. What happened? Or, has he found his true level?
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Post#56 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 4:00 pm by GrandAdmiralDan

Don't worry everybody. I received an email from the Bucks at 1:44pm with this subject line
Big Changes For the Bucks Start Tonight vs Phoenix


Looks like everything is heading in the right direction now and all that bad stuff is behind us...
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Post#57 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 4:04 pm by HurricaneKid

We're only a James Harden from what? I mean he was a net negative for OKC in the Finals. The difference between Mil and Miami (recent reg season successes notwithstanding) is enormous.

In judging Hammond you really need to state what it is you are hoping Milw becomes. I don't think there is a sufficient fan base to deal with a 3-5 yr stretch where they lose and lose heavily to get the kind of picks necessary to develop a young team. Since Milw will never be a FA destination thats really the only option to becoming a dangerous team. So a 7/8 seed is really what we are AIMING for.

I do readily admit its something few if any other teams in the league are doing.
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Post#58 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 4:08 pm by AussieBuck

DocHoliday wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:If you analyze all of Hammonds moves the last five years and use the context of timing, salary cap impact and level of assets received back........his best deal was the Bogut trade.

That's about all you need to know about John Hammond's work here.


Had he made the Houston deal instead maybe we would've had the assets to get Harden? maybe?

Houston traded Jeremy Lamb, Kevin Martin, the Toronto pick they got for Lowry and other picks for Harden.

Lowry was acquired in a swap for Rafer Alston.

Lamb was the pick they upgraded from us for Dalembert.

Martin they got in a trade where they sent out the not playing expiring of McGrady, Landry and Dorsey. They got back Martin, Jordan Hill (later traded for a 1st rounder) and a 1st round pick.

Morey got Landry originally for a second round pick.

You won't find any sort of escalation of value in trades in the Hammond transactions, no selling high for picks. Harden was had for what Morey had got back selling his junk.
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Post#59 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 4:11 pm by LUKE23

HurricaneKid wrote:We're only a James Harden from what? I mean he was a net negative for OKC in the Finals. The difference between Mil and Miami (recent reg season successes notwithstanding) is enormous.


If this teams starting five was Jennings/Harden/Moute/Ilyasova/Sanders with a bench of Udrih/Dunleavy/Harris/Henson/Udoh, we probably win 55 and are definitely #2 seed in the East this year.

I'm not saying finding Harden is easy, that's the point.
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Post#60 Re: Beyond The Scapegoat. (The Hammond Shuffl
Tue Jan 8, 2013 4:44 pm by DocHoliday

AussieBuck wrote:
DocHoliday wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:If you analyze all of Hammonds moves the last five years and use the context of timing, salary cap impact and level of assets received back........his best deal was the Bogut trade.

That's about all you need to know about John Hammond's work here.


Had he made the Houston deal instead maybe we would've had the assets to get Harden? maybe?

Houston traded Jeremy Lamb, Kevin Martin, the Toronto pick they got for Lowry and other picks for Harden.

Lowry was acquired in a swap for Rafer Alston.

Lamb was the pick they upgraded from us for Dalembert.

Martin they got in a trade where they sent out the not playing expiring of McGrady, Landry and Dorsey. They got back Martin, Jordan Hill (later traded for a 1st rounder) and a 1st round pick.

Morey got Landry originally for a second round pick.

You won't find any sort of escalation of value in trades in the Hammond transactions, no selling high for picks. Harden was had for what Morey had got back selling his junk.


I agree, which is why I was pointing out (in a roundabout way) that Hammond failed in the Bogut trade. If we had taken the Houston offer which I believe included picks and also would've left us with less talent ergo probably winning less games last year maybe we would've had the players to at least make an offer for Harden. Or maybe we are just watching a team like Jennings/Jeremy Lamb/Harris/Sanders/Drummond. Either sounds better to me.
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