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Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension

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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#101 » by europa » Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:34 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
europa wrote:there's been a lot of anti-Skiles sentiment expressed by players on this team. There hasn't been similar negative sentiments directed toward Hammond.


I know this is Festivus day for you (as mine was last March with the Bogut trade) but are any of these players with negative comments any good? I'd be more concerned about players tuning out if we were talking about Kobe, Harden, Melo, Blake Griffin, etc.


As would I. Again, though, we all know this team lacks big-time talent. No one disputes it. But Skiles' job is to coach the players he has effectively. In my opinion he failed at that and failed quite miserably lately. You can question how good the players are and that's fine but when so many begin lining up and expressing frustration with the job the coach then it's time to start looking at the coach and not just dismissing all the comments as meaningless. It would appear Kohl finally wised up and did that.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#102 » by Kerb Hohl » Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:38 pm

europa wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:
europa wrote:there's been a lot of anti-Skiles sentiment expressed by players on this team. There hasn't been similar negative sentiments directed toward Hammond.


I know this is Festivus day for you (as mine was last March with the Bogut trade) but are any of these players with negative comments any good? I'd be more concerned about players tuning out if we were talking about Kobe, Harden, Melo, Blake Griffin, etc.


As would I. Again, though, we all know this team lacks big-time talent. No one disputes it. But Skiles' job is to coach the players he has effectively. In my opinion he failed at that and failed quite miserably lately. You can question how good the players are and that's fine but when so many begin lining up and expressing frustration with the job the coach then it's time to start looking at the coach and not just dismissing all the comments as meaningless. It would appear Kohl finally wised up and did that.


Great. And now we'll all see how important that actually will end up being in the grand scheme of things.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#103 » by Turd Ferguson » Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:39 pm

So is it pretty safe to say Skiles has had a certain level of control over most trades and signings with the exception of maybe Monta last year?

If that's the case, and that Skiles' guys in Gooden, Jefferson, etc. were handpicked to come in and be a part of his system, then I don't see how you can vouch for Skiles at all. Bad decisions on personnel, and bad results in the W-L column.

Was he given a crappy product to work with otherwise? Yes. Does he get vets and young guys alike to at least be accountable on the defensive end, possibly resulting in a few more wins per season than some other coach might net you, despite the ill-advised rotations? Probably.

His head-butting has finally gotten him canned, and made it clear that he wasn't coming back after this year - I don't get why anyone's upset about him "parting ways" 32 games into the season rather than during the offseason.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#104 » by Badgerlander » Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:41 pm

europa wrote:As I said before those were turds Skiles wanted too. That was his cuisine of choice. He wanted Bogut gone and got his wish. He wanted Jennings and got his wish. He wanted guys like Gooden and got his wish. It's a messy bed but by no means was Hammond the only one who's soiled it.


Whatever, flush it all, don't reward it by only pumping out half of the septic tank... Hammond already has a handful of the worst moves I've seen this franchise make. I'll be one of the first to pay $.99 for a ticket to put a bag over my head after he makes another one.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#105 » by Treebeard » Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:42 pm

BuckPack wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:b) How hard is the lack of ticket revenue hitting Kohl? The attendance has now reached Atlanta Hawks levels from years past. The entire upper deck is empty and the lower deck only 2/3rd's full. People just aren't coming to games even with a "16-16" competitive 8th seed team.


Not nearly as bad as you'd think. Revenue sharing ended up being a lot better than anticipated.


Maybe, but the downward trend cannot be encouraging - especially if you are trying to sell the club. They need to put more butts in the seats, and get more viewers/listeners.

Cripes, I'm 200 miles away from Milwaukee, so I watch the games on TV mainly, and even I can see that the crowds are too small, you can hear that the crowds are too small. For home games, you don't hear much beyond Section 7 and Johnny Mc & Paschke.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#106 » by paulpressey25 » Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:43 pm

Turd Ferguson wrote:If that's the case, and that Skiles' guys in Gooden, Jefferson, etc. were handpicked to come in and be a part of his system, then I don't see how you can vouch for Skiles at all.


The best case scenario for Bucks fans is that Skiles was the deciding factor on most of the bad player personnel decisions and had Kohl's ear to get them implemented.

I'm not buying this scenario given that I've heard Hammond interviewed enough times the last five years to understand he doesn't have a grasp of the modern NBA. But that said, I'm willing to give that theory a shot. But we need to see really good trade moves coming up here at the deadline for me to buy into it.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#107 » by WEFFPIM » Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:43 pm

I'm not sure how much we can really read into the Skiles firing past the fact he was a lame duck, and it was confirmed as such yesterday morning by David Aldridge. Trying to read into a change in the Bucks hierarchy is fruitless because we still don't know enough to understand if a shift has occurred.

All we know is that Kohl has chosen to ride with Hammond instead of Skiles. Whether that means Kohl has given Hammond more flexibility in building a roster or whether that means Hammond falls back in line with what Kohl wants still isn't known. We can imply that it was Hammond who went to Kohl about ridding of Skiles, based on what we've heard about the relationship Kohl and Skiles had.

I think we can also imply that Kohl does not have a buyer at the ready or close to ready if a GM extension is in the works. An owner would not load up on contracts moments before a sale, especially of a team that doesn't make much money. OR, Hammond is in more control than we thought in all of this.

There's still way too many questions that have multiple answers with this team to get a firmer grasp as to where the Milwaukee Bucks are going.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#108 » by Thunder Muscle » Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:43 pm

DrugBust wrote:God I keep forgetting LRMAM is even on this team. If there's anyone on the team that could be in line for a trade, he's it.


I know right. I keep trying to figure out how minutes would work for like Ersan, Henson, Harris, and then I'm like "oh yeah, Moute has to fit in here somehow."
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#109 » by europa » Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:44 pm

DocHoliday wrote:
europa wrote:As I said before those were turds Skiles wanted too. That was his cuisine of choice. He wanted Bogut gone and got his wish. He wanted Jennings and got his wish. He wanted guys like Gooden and got his wish. It's a messy bed but by no means was Hammond the only one who's soiled it.


Whatever, flush it all, don't reward it by only pumping out half of the septic tank... Hammond already has a handful of the worst moves I've seen this franchise make. I'll be one of the first to pay $.99 for a ticket to put a bag over my head after he makes another one.


Make no mistake, though I like Hammond more than Skiles I see no reason to keep him around given the team's poor record under his watch. I think both deserve to go.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#110 » by Godgers » Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:47 pm

Every player on the Bulls hated Skiles. Many players went at it with Skiles before he left the Bulls. I remember researching Skiles when he was first hired and why he got ran out of Chicago. Samething all over again. I remember reading he was hated by every player and rubbed them the wrong way and bumped heads alot with players.

Im suprised he lasted this long to be honest. Would love for the Bucks to hire Jeff Vangundy if some how Phil Jackson turns the job down.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#111 » by ReasonablySober » Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:55 pm

N8Frog wrote:
DrugBust wrote:God I keep forgetting LRMAM is even on this team. If there's anyone on the team that could be in line for a trade, he's it.


I know right. I keep trying to figure out how minutes would work for like Ersan, Henson, Harris, and then I'm like "oh yeah, Moute has to fit in here somehow."


Easiest solution is to simply trade Jr. He won't be here next season and has value to other contenders. Deal him for a 1st or some young piece in the backcourt. Then you let LRMAM and Harris take all the SF minutes.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#112 » by LUKE23 » Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:59 pm

I like Moute as a long-term 6th man/defensive stopper.

Harris/Moute
Henson/Ilyasova (that one can be debated in terms of starter vs. sub long-term, but good problem to have)
Sanders/Udoh

The frontcourt is set, IMO. Major backcourt questions at both spots. Still think you can make it work with Jennings at PG if you get a versatile, efficient SG.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#113 » by Turd Ferguson » Tue Jan 8, 2013 8:02 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
Turd Ferguson wrote:If that's the case, and that Skiles' guys in Gooden, Jefferson, etc. were handpicked to come in and be a part of his system, then I don't see how you can vouch for Skiles at all.


The best case scenario for Bucks fans is that Skiles was the deciding factor on most of the bad player personnel decisions and had Kohl's ear to get them implemented.

I'm not buying this scenario given that I've heard Hammond interviewed enough times the last five years to understand he doesn't have a grasp of the modern NBA. But that said, I'm willing to give that theory a shot. But we need to see really good trade moves coming up here at the deadline for me to buy into it.


So you're essentially looking for Hammond to make a (competent) win-now trade in order to validate all the previous garbage grabs and just dismiss those moves as "guys Skiles clamored for"?

I don't really see how a move like that would put any doubt to rest about Hammond's putrid FA signings and trading abilities...unless you're looking for moves at the deadline to acquire young assets. But as he stated in that recent excerpt, whether he actually believes it or is just blowing smoke, that he thinks they've got a good team, and they're looking to finish out the year strong...
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#114 » by BucksRUS » Tue Jan 8, 2013 8:04 pm

LUKE23 wrote:I like Moute as a long-term 6th man/defensive stopper.

Harris/Moute
Henson/Ilyasova (that one can be debated in terms of starter vs. sub long-term, but good problem to have)
Sanders/Udoh

The frontcourt is set, IMO. Major backcourt questions at both spots. Still think you can make it work with Jennings at PG if you get a versatile, efficient SG.


I agree. Monta needs to go.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#115 » by ReasonablySober » Tue Jan 8, 2013 8:05 pm

LUKE23 wrote:I like Moute as a long-term 6th man/defensive stopper.

Harris/Moute
Henson/Ilyasova (that one can be debated in terms of starter vs. sub long-term, but good problem to have)
Sanders/Udoh

The frontcourt is set, IMO. Major backcourt questions at both spots. Still think you can make it work with Jennings at PG if you get a versatile, efficient SG.


It's a shame PG is still such a question mark, because this is going to be the draft to find a SG.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#116 » by Turd Ferguson » Tue Jan 8, 2013 8:05 pm

Also, when Skiles and the players became aware of heavy media criticism last season, Jennings and Dunleavy (I believe) were the only guys who actually vouched for him as a coach during players interviews in a post-game locker room setting.

So far, from twitter feeds at least, it looks like Jennings is the only one who has even acknowledged Skiles leaving the team.

And I guess you could count Larry's enthusiastic well-wishing greeting to his family and his friends this morning, albeit in a somewhat different light from Jennings' farewell :lol:
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#117 » by jakecronus8 » Tue Jan 8, 2013 8:10 pm

Had a small bit of hope as I got the Skiles news last night, just before I went to sleep. Open realgm today, read this headline, and now...

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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#118 » by Epicurus » Tue Jan 8, 2013 8:18 pm

europa wrote:
DocHoliday wrote:
europa wrote:As I said before those were turds Skiles wanted too. That was his cuisine of choice. He wanted Bogut gone and got his wish. He wanted Jennings and got his wish. He wanted guys like Gooden and got his wish. It's a messy bed but by no means was Hammond the only one who's soiled it.


Whatever, flush it all, don't reward it by only pumping out half of the septic tank... Hammond already has a handful of the worst moves I've seen this franchise make. I'll be one of the first to pay $.99 for a ticket to put a bag over my head after he makes another one.


Make no mistake, though I like Hammond more than Skiles I see no reason to keep him around given the team's poor record under his watch. I think both deserve to go.

Team W/L record is a poor indicator of coaching as the record is a function of player talent, effort, health, coaching talent, and luck. I believe coaching talent (which really within the NBA fraternity is not that varied) is the least of the variables. Of course, one can suggest that some coaches at certain times carry a luck totem which makes all things better. Can't argue against that.

It is difficult to see over the last ten years or so who wouldn't have had a record above a C+ level with even the two or three coaches who may be above the mean of coaching talent. Skiles had one at the B- level in his tenure and that was as much luck in the last 1/3 of the year than anything else (Luck that Salmons was available, the Bulls wanted him gone, and he played out of his head during that period). Otherwise the Bucks that year were in the C- to C range once again.

On the other hand, W/L record may be more of a function of gm's ability to find player talent, including complementary talent that allows coaching talent to contribute.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#119 » by europa » Tue Jan 8, 2013 8:23 pm

At the end of the day epi all that matters is wins and losses. I agree there are plenty of variables which enter into that equation but teams are ultimately judged by the level of success they have. That's the deal and I'm willing to wager every head coach and GM knows the score when they sign on for a gig. With regard to Skiles, I'd say the fact every one of his stops has ended in similar fashion (players tuning him out, for example) is a reflection on him more so than than whatever talent he has to work with. He needs to take accountability for the success or lack thereof this team and any team he coaches enjoys. That's the deal. Same with Hammond. If the results are not satisfactory than it's time to move on.
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Re: Kohl and Hammond Working on Extension 

Post#120 » by SupremeHustle » Tue Jan 8, 2013 8:28 pm

N8Frog wrote:Well if true I am just happy they are making a decision on him. Hammond does talk about wanting to go young alot, so maybe we actually continue to do so. I liked Skiles, but I can't imagine he'd be for a rebuild. I could be wrong on that obviously.


Based on the guys he's drafted in the first round, I'd say he's been in stealth rebuild mode for a few years.

Now he just needs to overtly commit to it and go get more picks/young prospects.

I'm not sure there's a GM in the world that could change the Bucks in dramatic fashion.
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