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How good is Larry Sanders

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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#41 » by JBucks » Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:49 pm

Ill-yasova wrote:I'm kinda surprised anyone would say he has trouble finishing around the hoop. That's been one of the most improved parts of his game IMO. He's done a great job finishing on the move off of face-ups all season.

Also Jbucks was the guy who roughly a month ago said Sanders should be cut because he was the worst player on the team. You might want to take his opinion with a bag of rock salt.


Ill-yasova - I actually wrote that he should be traded, not cut. In any event, I'm nowhere near as high on Sanders as most people on this board. I believe that this team is so starved for talent - especially in the frontcourt - that people put Sanders on a pedestal that only exists in Milwaukee.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#42 » by Nebula1 » Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:51 pm

There was a dude here with a tv showing the larry sanders show. I liked that show.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#43 » by blazza18 » Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:53 pm

What is Sanders not showing you for you not to be excited about him ? With him on the floor we are a better team.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#44 » by H2tObes » Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:09 am

blazza18 wrote:What is Sanders not showing you for you not to be excited about him ? With him on the floor we are a better team.

Exactly, it's clear to everyone that we are better with him on the court and he has a huge impact when he's on the court.

No matter how good your team is, any fan would be more then happy that their 3rd year extremely raw prospect was suddenly showing to be a top defensive player. The pessimism on this board is unreal sometimes.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#45 » by paul » Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:10 am

Mega defensive impact largely because he's maybe the longest guy in the NBA in the paint - his length combined with his jumping ability makes him incredibly difficult to get over or around. His feet aren't terrible but his length gets him out of a whole bunch of rotation misses, he's certainly not what you'd call a smart defensive player or fundamentally great but his length makes up for it. He's a Marcus Camby type - not a great defender fundamentally (despite all those awards) but flashy and intimidating with his length while having similar flaws to his game. Make no mistake, Sanders will have a long career and likely win a few awards along the way that ignore his lack of fundamentals and smarts.

Offensively he's awful in pretty much every facet other than dunking and will likely continue to be, though his restraint on not shooting that jumper is a positive not a negative. He runs the floor really well for a big which should give him 4 points a night on oops and run outs while his opponent is still in his own 3 point line.

Larry barely playing for the previous two seasons really sealed my opinion on Skiles, it was idiotic and cost us getting this Larry a season earlier - as well as several wins along the way. Prior to this season I said he'd lead the league in blocks per36 and get some serious DPOY talk if Skiles would remove his head from his ass. He plays him and.... shocker.
Hopefully Skiles being sacked means Tobias has avoided the Larry treatment for another season.

Finally probably the worst boxing out big I've seen since Charlie V left town. He's a great vertical rebounder because he's so long but FFS Larry put a body on someone rather than letting them coast to the front of the rim, it costs us a couple of putbacks a game. He absolutely takes a nap in the time between the ball leaving a shooters hands and hitting the rim.

He spent his first few seasons being grossly underrated both by fans on here and by the coach, and is now getting overrated as a reaction to seemingly coming from nowhere. The truth is he's an extremely valuable and extremely flawed player - on both ends.

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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#46 » by EzeDoesIt » Wed Jan 9, 2013 3:53 am

LUKE23 wrote:Ibaka with less offensive polish and arguably slightly more defensive impact.


I had to fix that for you; Ibaka with no offense at all and much better defensive impact.

Seriously though, Sanders is awful on offense. Poor hands, takes shots that are too tough for him, etc. He needs work, but he definitely has improved offensively since his rookie year.

He's also a monster rebounder now out of nowhere which is awesome. His defense is scary sometimes. Like, I recall our first (I believe) matchup with the Nets this year...he literally had the BKN players afraid to take shots. D-Will missed a stepback jumper over Sanders by a mile because he didn't want it to get blocked. That was an awesome game.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#47 » by milweskee » Wed Jan 9, 2013 4:08 am

Nebula1 wrote:There was a dude here with a tv showing the larry sanders show. I liked that show.


8-)

I had it since Larry's first Summer League...
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#48 » by Ayt » Wed Jan 9, 2013 4:21 am

Comparing him to Ibaka is pointless. Ibaka has a very nice midrange jumper, but he's also much more clueless around the rim when it comes to going for blocks on the defensive side of the ball.

Sanders is a center. He has almost no game outside of the paint. The best we can hope for at this point offensively is the occasional catch outside of the paint followed by a power dribble and a layup/hook attempt.

Regardless, he's a **** monster defensively. I think he's already good enough to be considered a top 10 defensive player in the game. His impact defensively is immense. All he needs to do is cut down on his fouls.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#49 » by ampd » Wed Jan 9, 2013 4:37 am

Larry has shown the ability this season to hit that jumper from the free throw line when he is left open. If he just learns to take and make that thing, and then to use his quickness to occasionally convert that to an easy basket at the rim, that will be plenty of offense from him to get him 14-16 ppg at a high level of efficiency and I think he can easily develop that over the next season or so. If he could do that and continue to stay effective defensively or even improve, he can easily be an all star caliber big.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#50 » by paul » Wed Jan 9, 2013 5:15 am

Ayt wrote:Regardless, he's a **** monster defensively. I think he's already good enough to be considered a top 10 defensive player in the game. His impact defensively is immense. All he needs to do is cut down on his fouls.


This is where we need to be a little bit careful imo. I don't want to sound like I'm down on Larry, I'm not. I'm a big fan of his and am one of the very few that has been all the way along, but he's getting overrated defensively.

He's probably the best shotblocker in the game. He's ridiculously long, ridiculously athletic and he jumps at pretty much everything - he blocks a ton of shots and alters a heap more - but he ranges anywhere between competent and freaking awful on the floor defensively depending on his matchup.

The last 5 games his starting opponents have put up 91 points and 56 rebounds on 58% from the field. That's 18/11 at almost 60% from the field by a bunch of guys who combined average about 65 points/47 rebounds on 49% from the field - or 13/9 - so as a group his last 5 opponents are about 5 points and 2 rebounds above their season averages on 9% better from the field.

Not all of those points have been scored against Larry of course, but plenty have. Pretty sure Gortat scored 14 of his 16 on Larry tonight on 90% ish. Duncan in particular straight up made him his bitch last week, Hibbert's a 9/8 guy this season and Larry made him look like prime Shaq. That's not to diminish Larry's vertical shot blocking, but great defenders don't consistently get lit up by their direct opponents. He was all flash and no substance on D tonight, (not you) but those saying he was good tonight defensively are living by the same principles that Monta Ellis got paid by, just on the other end of the court.

He's a mega threat vertically but the spectacular blocks and alters paper over a ton of holes in his defensive game, he's nowhere near complete on that end. The good news is he should keep getting better if he doesn't get too far ahead of himself, which honestly is a bit of a worry. He got lit up by a guy averaging 11/9 tonight yet was hanging on the ring after a dunk and saluting the crowd after a block like he was prime Mutombo, needs to be a bit careful with that stuff.

The Ibaka talk shouldn't surprise, there's a guy who's spent the majority of his career grossly overrated defensively based on his shotblocking.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#51 » by ampd » Wed Jan 9, 2013 5:33 am

Yeah paul you and I were two of the few carrying the torch during the summer league, and I think your analysis is pretty much dead on.

He obviously has to keep working if he wants to reach DPOY level and his fundamentals come and go. But for once we have a guy with elite length and athletic ability at his position who has quite clearly turned the corner into a pretty consistently positive impact player.

Yes there are times / games / types of players that he struggles against still. But overall his man defense has been elite (0.35 ppp on isolations, 0.5 on post ups according to synergy). The baskets he gives up are on his rotations, and clearly learning when and how much to rotate/show in the pick and roll so as to not leave his man open for easy passes under the basket is something he can and should improve over time. Unlike say, Ersan, he does have the physical tools to do it.

As was noted earlier he also tends not to respect the jump shot of some guys who can shoot it and it leads to some open jumpers. Another thing that seems not so hard to correct over time, and as he continues to get more experience.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#52 » by AussieBuck » Wed Jan 9, 2013 7:29 am

He's a not-soft more crazy/spazzy Camby. I always knew he was strictly a C but I didn't think he'd get beyond good backup. Happy to be wrong about that.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#53 » by Ayt » Wed Jan 9, 2013 7:40 am

paul wrote:
Ayt wrote:Regardless, he's a **** monster defensively. I think he's already good enough to be considered a top 10 defensive player in the game. His impact defensively is immense. All he needs to do is cut down on his fouls.


This is where we need to be a little bit careful imo. I don't want to sound like I'm down on Larry, I'm not. I'm a big fan of his and am one of the very few that has been all the way along, but he's getting overrated defensively.

He's probably the best shotblocker in the game. He's ridiculously long, ridiculously athletic and he jumps at pretty much everything - he blocks a ton of shots and alters a heap more - but he ranges anywhere between competent and freaking awful on the floor defensively depending on his matchup.

The last 5 games his starting opponents have put up 91 points and 56 rebounds on 58% from the field. That's 18/11 at almost 60% from the field by a bunch of guys who combined average about 65 points/47 rebounds on 49% from the field - or 13/9 - so as a group his last 5 opponents are about 5 points and 2 rebounds above their season averages on 9% better from the field.

Not all of those points have been scored against Larry of course, but plenty have. Pretty sure Gortat scored 14 of his 16 on Larry tonight on 90% ish. Duncan in particular straight up made him his bitch last week, Hibbert's a 9/8 guy this season and Larry made him look like prime Shaq. That's not to diminish Larry's vertical shot blocking, but great defenders don't consistently get lit up by their direct opponents. He was all flash and no substance on D tonight, (not you) but those saying he was good tonight defensively are living by the same principles that Monta Ellis got paid by, just on the other end of the court.

He's a mega threat vertically but the spectacular blocks and alters paper over a ton of holes in his defensive game, he's nowhere near complete on that end. The good news is he should keep getting better if he doesn't get too far ahead of himself, which honestly is a bit of a worry. He got lit up by a guy averaging 11/9 tonight yet was hanging on the ring after a dunk and saluting the crowd after a block like he was prime Mutombo, needs to be a bit careful with that stuff.

The Ibaka talk shouldn't surprise, there's a guy who's spent the majority of his career grossly overrated defensively based on his shotblocking.


Based on what?
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#54 » by dunk_my_hole » Wed Jan 9, 2013 9:10 am

Are you guys always so harsh on your own players?

Wow.

Im a Utah JAzz fan and I would love Larry Sanders on my team. And we are loaded in the front court.


I shakedmy head seeing some of you people compare him to below average players like DeanAdre Jordan.

Once Sanders starts playing about 32 minutes a game he will give you 14 points, 12 boards and 4 blocks a game, and elite interior defense.

The kid will be an All Star one day, I have no doubt.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#55 » by europa » Wed Jan 9, 2013 5:38 pm

ampd wrote:Yeah paul you and I were two of the few carrying the torch during the summer league


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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#56 » by LUKE23 » Wed Jan 9, 2013 5:40 pm

The real question is are you better off starting Henson/Sanders together long-term, or Ilyasova/Sanders for spacing? It's a good problem to have.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#57 » by EastSideBucksFan » Wed Jan 9, 2013 5:50 pm

paul wrote:
Ayt wrote:Regardless, he's a **** monster defensively. I think he's already good enough to be considered a top 10 defensive player in the game. His impact defensively is immense. All he needs to do is cut down on his fouls.


This is where we need to be a little bit careful imo. I don't want to sound like I'm down on Larry, I'm not. I'm a big fan of his and am one of the very few that has been all the way along, but he's getting overrated defensively.

He's probably the best shotblocker in the game. He's ridiculously long, ridiculously athletic and he jumps at pretty much everything - he blocks a ton of shots and alters a heap more - but he ranges anywhere between competent and freaking awful on the floor defensively depending on his matchup.

The last 5 games his starting opponents have put up 91 points and 56 rebounds on 58% from the field. That's 18/11 at almost 60% from the field by a bunch of guys who combined average about 65 points/47 rebounds on 49% from the field - or 13/9 - so as a group his last 5 opponents are about 5 points and 2 rebounds above their season averages on 9% better from the field.

Not all of those points have been scored against Larry of course, but plenty have. Pretty sure Gortat scored 14 of his 16 on Larry tonight on 90% ish. Duncan in particular straight up made him his bitch last week, Hibbert's a 9/8 guy this season and Larry made him look like prime Shaq. That's not to diminish Larry's vertical shot blocking, but great defenders don't consistently get lit up by their direct opponents. He was all flash and no substance on D tonight, (not you) but those saying he was good tonight defensively are living by the same principles that Monta Ellis got paid by, just on the other end of the court.

He's a mega threat vertically but the spectacular blocks and alters paper over a ton of holes in his defensive game, he's nowhere near complete on that end. The good news is he should keep getting better if he doesn't get too far ahead of himself, which honestly is a bit of a worry. He got lit up by a guy averaging 11/9 tonight yet was hanging on the ring after a dunk and saluting the crowd after a block like he was prime Mutombo, needs to be a bit careful with that stuff.

The Ibaka talk shouldn't surprise, there's a guy who's spent the majority of his career grossly overrated defensively based on his shotblocking.



I agree with this post and have noticed the same things since Larry has been full time starter.

He's still got work to do on being in the right spot at the right time.

I just wasn't able to get it down in writing as well as you have.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#58 » by AussieBuck » Wed Jan 9, 2013 8:34 pm

LUKE23 wrote:The real question is are you better off starting Henson/Sanders together long-term, or Ilyasova/Sanders for spacing? It's a good problem to have.

Long term his entire skill set screams C not PF.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#59 » by DanoMac » Wed Jan 9, 2013 9:48 pm

Jesus Christ, how can anyone say this guy is soft or overrated. I'm not one bit convinced that you've seen a minute of action that he's been in this season. A ridiculous leap. He's matured beyond belief, the game has finally slowed down for him.

To whoever said he's in love with himself...is that because he goes wild when the crowd chants "Larry"? Good God...this guy is playing for the Bucks and trying his hardest to get every fan in the BC on their feet and going nuts. He gets the fans energized, and it looks like he puts a little spark in the team whenever he's going nuts with the fans as well.

I don't think it's bad to hope for a tank, or hope for losses. I don't think it's bad to dog on your team, like some here think. But when you're putting on blinders describing a guy who's made an incredible leap from year 2 to 3, and obviously is a positive to our long term frontcourt, then that's ludicrous.
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Re: How good is Larry Sanders 

Post#60 » by LUKE23 » Wed Jan 9, 2013 9:50 pm

AussieBuck wrote:Long term his entire skill set screams C not PF.


If you're talking Sanders I agree. I think Henson is more up for debate but I could see him being OK at either spot. With C he needs more weight, with PF he needs more offensive refinement. I do think his midrange jumper will be solid though.

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