Potential Jennings trade thread (POLL ADDED)

[randy84]

Brandon was never going to take 4/36. The market was set by Ty Lawson. Minimum of 4/40.

[JayMKE]

I'd move Jennings if it meant we cashed out and got something to help us rebuild, I'm not a against it. Being a miser and saving a couple mil means has little value to me but perpetuating mediocrity is totally unacceptable. Getting a comparable PG with no upside when the argument against Jennings now is apparently that he has no upside is just total grass is greener hater BS. Not going to read the last 7 or pages but did I see Grevius Vasquez? Good lord...

We talk about Jennings contract like we know what it is. If he gets an $12 mil a year offer, then yea he's getting overpaid but $10 mil is simply market value and under that would be a steal. That's the NBA now under this new CBA, the max contracts are less so the value of more marginal players have gone up. I'm not fan of the CBA but it is what it is. Brandon is young enough now where I'm not too worried about him regressing and I think he'll be movable enough if need be. Salary isn't the only thing to goes into trade, how much trade value does Luke Ridnour or Ramon Sessions have? How much are they going to net you?

[Baddy Chuck]

You also have to ask yourself if some of those guys are worth having around, even if they are productive. Would you rather have Nene for $15 million or Ilysasova for half that. Nene is a good player, but he isn't double Ilyasova.

Here's my thing with Ersan. He's not a starter. Right now he's worth 8 million because we don't have a guy who can play 30 minutes a night. If Henson becomes that 30 minute a night guy or you trade for one Ersan becomes overpaid at 8 million to be playing under 20 minutes a game.

[Baddy Chuck]

Calderon is the right comparison for Vasquez.

But unless he improves, is Jennings more then Nick Van Exel? I think you could make an argument either way who you want of Jose Calderon or Nick Van Exel. We have a ton of good big men who really aren't scoring unless it's created for them. I think a guy like that creating for them would be a lot more enjoyable to watch then Jennings shooting 40%.

If you think Calderon is a guy who creates a lot of offense you haven't seen him play. Hate saying it but its the truth. Calderon is a notorious ball mover, not a guy who creates tons of opportunities for guys who can't create for themselves. It's also why you need to be careful when reasoning using metrics like double digit assist games or something.

I was mostly referencing Vazquez, I think he's better hen Calderon at creating for others.

[AussieBuck]

It's not meant to anything more than a demonstration of Jennings' lack of ability to complete more than the standard pass.

I can go along with that interpretation

Well.... That was an anticlimax.

[AussieBuck]

We often agree on other things but you guys have seriously gone off the rails on this

Yeah, what the h*ll man!? I agree with most of what u say as well baddy, but Vasquez > Jennings?!?!? U don't really believe that do u???

At the very least the Hornets aren't going to give up anything of much value when they have a player who isn't much worse then Jennings. But yeah, I think I'd take Vasquez over Jennings. Now if you told me in a few years Vasquez was getting $10+ million as well I would cut ties with him too. I don't think Jennings is going to improve. I think he's an inefficient 18 points without any qualities that make a point guard, Vasquez looks to have made the jump to a guy I would love to watch running the offense.

Hey, I love watching him on offense too. Unfortunately he's a lot worse on defense than he is good on offense.

A PG's influence on the D is almost never near their effect on the offense. I can't buy Vasquez being that bad on D.

[Baddy Chuck]

A PG's influence on the D is almost never near their effect on the offense. I can't buy Vasquez being that bad on D.

He's pretty bad, mostly because he's about as fast as Bogut on crutches. But I agree with you, a point guard who can get everyone involved and get to the spots on the floor he wants to like Vasquez can is worth a lot more on offense then he hurts your defense. I mean, Jennings is a good on ball pest but I don't consider that good defense. It's like Dalembert getting a block. Throw a pick his way and he's useless.

[JayMKE]

Jennings has shown the ability to be a good defender against great players(more than just being able to get steals) but he's inconsistent just like he is with a lot of things.

[Baddy Chuck]

Jennings has shown the ability to be a good defender against great players(more than just being able to get steals) but he's inconsistent just like he is with a lot of things.

But I don't think he's like Kobe who's a great defender and just has to decide when he wants to do it, the stars really have to align for Jennings to look great on defense more then just on ball.

[mattg]

A PG's influence on the D is almost never near their effect on the offense. I can't buy Vasquez being that bad on D.

He's pretty bad, mostly because he's about as fast as Bogut on crutches. But I agree with you, a point guard who can get everyone involved and get to the spots on the floor he wants to like Vasquez can is worth a lot more on offense then he hurts your defense. I mean, Jennings is a good on ball pest but I don't consider that good defense. It's like Dalembert getting a block. Throw a pick his way and he's useless.

What is defense to you then? Jennings ball pressure often eats up precious seconds of the shot clock which limits how much the offense can go to work. He also forces a lot of turnovers without gambling in e passing lanes.

As for Jennings struggling when he's screened, well no **** huh? Every PG in the league needs help from the bigs in ball screen situations. Off ball screens he definitely struggles running through when teams run advanced sets for his matchup, but part of that was the team defensive philosophy to never switch. That's where you'd see tony Parker running through 3 screens in a possession while we offer no help to Jennings and expect him to recover. Part scheme, part slight build.

[Baddy Chuck]

What is defense to you then? Jennings ball pressure often eats up precious seconds of the shot clock which limits how much the offense can go to work. He also forces a lot of turnovers without gambling in e passing lanes.

Defense is a lot of things. Forcing players you to the spot you want, fighting through screens to pick back up your man, ability to contain penetration with physicality and/or quickness, on the ball peskiness, knowing when to gamble and when not to as well as many other things. You pointed out his slight build and that leads to a lot of his problems but I don't think he is above average at any facet of defense besides his on ball defense. He is a huge pest when a team is setting up a play but once that play is set into motion I don't feel as though he is very effective. Is he Steve Nash, Lillard or someone like that? No, but I don't think he's on the upper tier of point guard defenders either like guys such as Holiday or Rondo. I'd probably throw him in a category with guys like Lin, Walker or Curry in terms on defensive effectiveness. He's in the upper half of starting point guards, I think when you step out of the upper echelon defenders you usefulness is pretty over exaggerated though.

[mattg]

What is defense to you then? Jennings ball pressure often eats up precious seconds of the shot clock which limits how much the offense can go to work. He also forces a lot of turnovers without gambling in e passing lanes.

Defense is a lot of things. Forcing players you to the spot you want, fighting through screens to pick back up your man, ability to contain penetration with physicality and/or quickness, on the ball peskiness, knowing when to gamble and when not to as well as many other things. You pointed out his slight build and that leads to a lot of his problems but I don't think he is above average at any facet of defense besides his on ball defense. He is a huge pest when a team is setting up a play but once that play is set into motion I don't feel as though he is very effective. Is he Steve Nash, Lillard or someone like that? No, but I don't think he's on the upper tier of point guard defenders either like guys such as Holiday or Rondo. I'd probably throw him in a category with guys like Lin, Walker or Curry in terms on defensive effectiveness. He's in the upper half of starting point guards, I think when you step out of the upper echelon defenders you usefulness is pretty over exaggerated though.

Jennings is better than guys like curry/walker/Lin. Stays in front of guys better and moves his feet better while being peskier. You seem to undervalue Jennings ability to force turnovers and come up with steals.

Not sure why people are so keen on holidays defense. He's always had the reputation because he's a bigger guard, and thus more versatile in who he can guard, but his footwork on that end isn't spectacular and the sixers don't use him against the toughest matchup often, preferring to save him for offense.

[gbmb34]

If Holiday was significantly better than Jennings, wouldn't the Sixers have a higher offensive efficiency than 101.9 (28th)?

That's worse than Milwaukee (102.2).

I'd take Holiday over Jennings, but it's not a huge difference.

[AussieBuck]

If Holiday was significantly better than Jennings, wouldn't the Sixers have a higher offensive efficiency than 101.9 (28th)?

That's worse than Milwaukee (102.2).

I'd take Holiday over Jennings, but it's not a huge difference.

Thad Young's his only competent scoring teammate.

[Baddy Chuck]

Jennings is better than guys like curry/walker/Lin. Stays in front of guys better and moves his feet better while being peskier. You seem to undervalue Jennings ability to force turnovers and come up with steals.

I don't believe he really is much better then those guys and we'll have to agree to disagree on Holiday, I think he's clearly in the upper tier of point defenders. Also, I don't feel I undervalue his ability at all. Going by his first month I would've ranked him much higher based on the ability to cause those turnovers, but he'll cooled off drastically since then. His first 11 games he had 6 games with over 3 steals, he was hounding the ball better then anyone in the league. In the next 28 games, he's had over three steals exactly twice, 7 games with no steals, and 11 games with only 1. I don't think I'm really underestimating his ability to steal the ball at all. He started out at an unsustainable rate and has cool down dramatically.

[Ayt]

The question becomes, what happens with Jennings when you put him alongside a good offensive player who can take pressure off of him so he doesn't have to use so many offensive possessions because we have no chance to win if Jennings doesn't shoot a lot and shoot well. I'm talking about an efficient secondary(or even primary creator), not just an efficient catch and shoot player or something. Think about how good we look offensively at times playing Beno and Jennings together when beno is playing well, and now imagine that skillset in a SG or SF who could do it consistently.

how is this guy you describe to take the "load off jennings".... not monta ellis?

ellis big issue is his efficiency but that has nothing to do with what you just described as jennings "ideal" running mate. surely youre not suggesting that if ellis shot better that this would improve how jennings looks are you?

i hate the argument about how brandon would look if we paired him with a decent sg. wtf does that have to do with anything. how in the hell is another sg gonna help brandon unless he does all the things a damn pg is supposed to do for him. brandon is the pg... he doesnt play like one. he plays like a sg. the discussion should be how the rest of the team would look with a decent pg.

Watching Monta use possessions to chuck up shots that he misses doesn't take pressure off of Jennings. It adds pressure.

I would love to see Monta gone because I think it helps the team overall (and he's an asset you need to cash in on) but I'd be lying if I said it helped Brandon that much. His problems aren't tied into Monta. Not being able to dribble right, inconsistent jump shot and his problems converting or passing once he gets into the lane aren't a problem that Monta is throwing on Brandon's shoulders. One thing that could help him with a more consistent guy is the nights where Brandon feels like he has to chuck up shots to pick up the slack, but honestly, for every one of those nights there's a night where Brandon chucks up those shots anyways. It'll be interesting to see how long the excuses for being inconsistent run with Brandon.

I agree. Brandon thinks shoot first and second because that's just who he is as a player. It's in his basketball DNA. He's been a scorer first before coming to the NBA.

Unlike some people, i don't mind point guards who shoot quite a bit and aren't say 8-9-10 assists per game guys. Generally point guards who are great passers and who have great court vision, that's something which mostly came natural to them. It isn't taught or learned as much a gift they possess. Brandon wasn't blessed with that gift.

He can pass decently enough though to be a quality PG if he simply wasn't such a bricklayer. If he could finish better in the paint and get to the line. Basically, if he could score more efficiently to justify his natural inclination to shoot so often. After nearly four seasons done though, i've seen very little from Jennings to hold out serious hope that he'll ever be noticeably better than he currently is.

I'm not necessarily calling you out specifically, but it seems like a lot of people are hopeful that Baddy can become like Mo circa 2007-08 offensively. Can you even imagine Baddy having a TS% of .566? Can you imagine him with Mo's quick layup move, floater, and mid-range pull up to go along with Mo's three point shot? Young Mo crushes Baddy as a scorer.

If you put Mo's skillset in a much quicker and more athletic body like Baddy's, you have yourself a guy who can score 25+ with solid efficiency. Sadly, Baddy doesn't have anywhere close to the arsenal that Mo had.

I certainly also wouldn't argue that Baddy is a huge amount better as a creator for others. Frankly, we'd be much better off with 2007-08 Mo this season compared to Jennings.

People defending Jennings makes it a "love fest". Oh my Jesus.

People arguing that he's in the same tier as Jrue Holiday specifically.

Im no Jennings lover, but is it even a question that he's on the same tier as Jrue Holiday? Holiday has had a better season this year yes, almost identical ppg with significantly better apg and slightly better rpg, but Jennings also gets more steals and turns the ball over less. As for their careers thus far id say jennings stas are slightly more impressive but i admit its very debatable based on their respective shooting percentages. At the same time, do u understand what it means for players to "be in the same tier"? U understand that two players can be in the same tier without them being equally good right? If two players are in the same tier they should be similar caliber players with similar impacts on their teams level of play, not equally good.

If u believe that Holiday is better than Jennings that's fine, I would definitely agree with u on that if that's what you're trying to say, but both players are as locked into the same tier as point guards at the moment as two players can be. It's not even debatable, that is unless you're allowing for there to exist close to a unique tier for each and every individual NBA player. If I was asked to pick players that are closet to Holiday in terms of not only trade value but also statistics and impact on his team Jennings would be like one of my top 3 choices. How is he in a lower tier?

If I have the choice of Jrue with his extension or Baddy with the exact same extension, I'm taking Jrue 100 times out of 100. The sad thing is, Baddy is likely going to get more.

I think Jrue is clearly the superior player right now. He's also on a much higher career trajectory given the huge step forward he's taken this year.

take a minute and look at chauncey billups career.

Take a look at the other 99% of all stars the past 20 years. There's always an exception or two to the rule because I'd have to think you are pointing out Steve Nash next.

I certainly am not worried about Baddy getting away and becoming a perennial All-Star type player. Do other people see that as a realistic scenario?

I think that really puts things in perspective for me. I see almost no chance that Baddy will become "the one that got away." Instead, I think I would see him as a player another team paid 10-12M for who was the exact same player we all knew he was while he was here.

[Baddy Chuck]

I'm not necessarily calling you out specifically, but it seems like a lot of people are hopeful that Baddy can become like Mo circa 2007-08 offensively. Can you even imagine Baddy having a TS% of .566?

One thing in Brandon's defense though is though he is an 18 PPG player on bad efficiency, Mo was an 18 on good efficiency. If Brandon even raises his percentages to a respectable level (still a solid jump for him) he would likely be a 20-22 ppg player. But I guess that's not to say that Mo couldn't do that as well with lower efficiency.

[4xBuck]

If Brandon even raises his percentages to a respectable level (still a solid jump for him).

Dude, you are so addicted to your agenda, you’ll say anything… awful.

Bellyaching that a player with a TS of .513 the last two seasons is a solid jump away from a respectable level is pathetically laughable.

[Ayt]

ITT: People saying a 23 year old cant improve.

Can't improve? No. I'd say history presents itself very clearly that if you aren't a star in the league after your first four years, especially with the minutes Brandon got, your odds of finally breaking out in years 5 and on are very small.

who are you using as your examples besides starbury and like...stevie franchise? i dont see how you can disregard cassell/billups cause im too lazy to look up others.

So your argument is that Baddy has the chance to be an enormous outlier? Should we re-sign Udoh because he has a <0 chance to become Ben Wallace?

Maybe Baddy will become a Nash/Billups clone and win the MVP every year for the next 6 seasons! It is possible! Sign him!

[Baddy Chuck]

If Brandon even raises his percentages to a respectable level (still a solid jump for him).

Dude, you are so addicted to your agenda, you’ll say anything… awful.

Bellyaching that a player with a TS of .513 the last two seasons is a solid jump away from a respectable level is pathetically laughable.

League average is 53.1%. 1.8% is a pretty big jump. No agenda, it's a fact.