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PG: Bucks beat Portland

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Post#166 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:01 am by LUKE23

coolhandluke121 wrote:Philly would be more than 6 games under .500 with Jennings. That's all that matters. Raw record doesn't matter. Holiday does everything better than Jennings, and does most things MUCH better. He has this year anyway. This whole argument is about why Jennings doesn't have a case for the all-star game over Holiday or Irving. No case whatsoever. Those two have been the far superior players this season.

And it's not "8 games better" or "10 games better" like you keep saying. It's just 3 or 4 stinking games. Holiday is playing like prime Billups right now. He is easily that much better than Brandon. Jennings mails it in on a regular basis, so just get an equally talented player who actually comes to play every night and you'd easily see a 3-win improvement.


First of all, you have a massive bias against Jennings and always have and it clearly flows through in every one of your posts regarding him. That being said, I'll respond anyway.

Baddy Chuck said we could "easily be 10 games over .500" if we had Holiday right now. That means 25-14 or whatever, which is 4 games better through a half season, or 8 games through a full season.

I have already agreed Holiday is better this year. To argue he is that much better means he is one of the best players in the NBA. Which also means there is no chance Philly is 6 games under .500 with over a negative 4 ppg point differential.

These players aren't on "different tiers". Holiday is better this year, for career he's slightly ahead and the players are of comparable ages. But hey, by all means, lets keep letting the hyperbole fly.
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Post#167 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:31 am by Thunder Muscle

What is the general take on Moute right now? Statisically it looks like he's having a rough year. Majority of his #'s are below his career average. His usage and field goal attempts are the highest ever, but his TS% is 5% below his career average at 46.3% and his Offense Rating is 93 (career avg 107). His FG% is just under 41% and his FT% is down. His turnovers are up. I don't know what stat people generally use (if any) to determine defensive prowess, but his D rating is at 105 which is around his career average.

Its funny on the eye ball test I felt Moute has become a better offensive player, but then looking at the stats it paints a totally different picture.

(All stats from Basketball Reference)
TBD
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Post#168 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:39 am by crkone

N8Frog wrote:What is the general take on Moute right now? Statisically it looks like he's having a rough year. Majority of his #'s are below his career average. His usage and field goal attempts are the highest ever, but his TS% is 5% below his career average at 46.3% and his Offense Rating is 93 (career avg 107). His FG% is just under 41% and his FT% is down. His turnovers are up. I don't know what stat people generally use (if any) to determine defensive prowess, but his D rating is at 105 which is around his career average.

Its funny on the eye ball test I felt Moute has become a better offensive player, but then looking at the stats it paints a totally different picture.

(All stats from Basketball Reference)

LRMAM has been attacking but hasn't been making shots. Its a new role for him.
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Post#169 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:45 am by Thunder Muscle

crkone wrote:
N8Frog wrote:What is the general take on Moute right now? Statisically it looks like he's having a rough year. Majority of his #'s are below his career average. His usage and field goal attempts are the highest ever, but his TS% is 5% below his career average at 46.3% and his Offense Rating is 93 (career avg 107). His FG% is just under 41% and his FT% is down. His turnovers are up. I don't know what stat people generally use (if any) to determine defensive prowess, but his D rating is at 105 which is around his career average.

Its funny on the eye ball test I felt Moute has become a better offensive player, but then looking at the stats it paints a totally different picture.

(All stats from Basketball Reference)

LRMAM has been attacking but hasn't been making shots. Its a new role for him.


So he gets a free pass? And I actually think he's taking more jumpers and 3's than ever. I know he has 3's b/c he's had 32 3PT Attempt in his first 4 years combined and has 17 3PT attempts in 25 games this year.
TBD
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Post#170 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:58 am by Epicurus

Max Green wrote:I wonder if Portland will make a move for some depth and a legit starting Center. They are destined to be a late lottery team starting Hickson at Center.

Hickson is the least of Portland's concerns. Not having anyone on the bench who would be a 6th-8th player on a decent team, or actually any other team, is their premier problem now. Perhaps one of the four other rookies not name Lillard will contribute more and better in the second half of the season. If Leonard didn't get injured and been out for several weeks, it probably would have been him (and hence depth and variety at the 5, and even 4 as Hicksdon could then spel Aldridge). This would be a hell of a team with their starters and the Bucks bench.
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Post#171 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:04 am by crkone

N8Frog wrote:
crkone wrote:
N8Frog wrote:What is the general take on Moute right now? Statisically it looks like he's having a rough year. Majority of his #'s are below his career average. His usage and field goal attempts are the highest ever, but his TS% is 5% below his career average at 46.3% and his Offense Rating is 93 (career avg 107). His FG% is just under 41% and his FT% is down. His turnovers are up. I don't know what stat people generally use (if any) to determine defensive prowess, but his D rating is at 105 which is around his career average.

Its funny on the eye ball test I felt Moute has become a better offensive player, but then looking at the stats it paints a totally different picture.

(All stats from Basketball Reference)

LRMAM has been attacking but hasn't been making shots. Its a new role for him.


So he gets a free pass? And I actually think he's taking more jumpers and 3's than ever. I know he has 3's b/c he's had 32 3PT Attempt in his first 4 years combined and has 17 3PT attempts in 25 games this year.


His % at the rim is terrible but besides long twos, all his percentages are higher with more attempts. His eFG on 3s is at 50% which is below average but not terrible. He just hasn't been converting at the rim like he usually does. But he only takes 7 shots a game at those percentages, not 18 like Monta.
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Post#172 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:14 am by Thunder Muscle

crkone wrote:
N8Frog wrote:
N8Frog wrote:What is the general take on Moute right now? Statisically it looks like he's having a rough year. Majority of his #'s are below his career average. His usage and field goal attempts are the highest ever, but his TS% is 5% below his career average at 46.3% and his Offense Rating is 93 (career avg 107). His FG% is just under 41% and his FT% is down. His turnovers are up. I don't know what stat people generally use (if any) to determine defensive prowess, but his D rating is at 105 which is around his career average.

Its funny on the eye ball test I felt Moute has become a better offensive player, but then looking at the stats it paints a totally different picture.

(All stats from Basketball Reference)

LRMAM has been attacking but hasn't been making shots. Its a new role for him.
So he gets a free pass? And I actually think he's taking more jumpers and 3's than ever. I know he has 3's b/c he's had 32 3PT Attempt in his first 4 years combined and has 17 3PT attempts in 25 games this year.


His % at the rim is terrible but besides long twos, all his percentages are higher with more attempts. His eFG on 3s is at 50% which is below average but not terrible. He just hasn't been converting at the rim like he usually does. But he only takes 7 shots a game at those percentages, not 18 like Monta.


Where are those stats from? His eFG% is 41.8% which is 10% below last year and 6% below his career average. His 3PT% is 23.5% this year. I don't think you can have an eFG% for just 3PT% b/c eFG is adjusted to include 3PT. And take out the 3's he's shooting 42.4%. I know he's not a primary shooter, but his FGA per game is 5th currently and only 1 shot less than Ersan & Dunleavy.
TBD
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Post#173 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:48 am by JimmyTheKid

:lol:

Wow. Just finished skimming. The post game thread sure is an odd place crap on Jennings after the game he had Saturday night. Not to mention his overall play since Skiles was canned. Some of your agendas are very strange. But also hilarious. So we laugh.
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Post#174 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:02 am by Fight the Tank

JimmyTheKid wrote::lol:

Wow. Just finished skimming. The post game thread sure is an odd place crap on Jennings after the game he had Saturday night. Not to mention his overall play since Skiles was canned. Some of your agendas are very strange. But also hilarious. So we laugh.


Not a shocker. I'm very curious to see the reaction if Jennings does happen to get into the all star game this year. First Buck in forever and I would guess most people here will be upset.
"I just wanted to play because I just love the game," Jennings said. "It doesn't matter to me. I get up to play basketball. It's my job. I have to still be a professional and finish the season."
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Post#175 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:06 am by crkone

N8Frog wrote:
crkone wrote:
His % at the rim is terrible but besides long twos, all his percentages are higher with more attempts. His eFG on 3s is at 50% which is below average but not terrible. He just hasn't been converting at the rim like he usually does. But he only takes 7 shots a game at those percentages, not 18 like Monta.


Where are those stats from? His eFG% is 41.8% which is 10% below last year and 6% below his career average. His 3PT% is 23.5% this year. I don't think you can have an eFG% for just 3PT% b/c eFG is adjusted to include 3PT. And take out the 3's he's shooting 42.4%. I know he's not a primary shooter, but his FGA per game is 5th currently and only 1 shot less than Ersan & Dunleavy.


http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?nam ... 0a%20Moute

They use eFG on 3s to compare them to 2 pointers at different areas on the floor. Ersan's TS% has been awful also and terrible at the rim. Dunleavy can get more shots but should take them from the worst high usage shooter in the league in Monta. In fact the team would be worlds better if they divvy up all of Monta's shots between Dunleavy (50%) and the rest.
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Post#176 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:00 pm by ampd

Its not easy to divvy up Monta's shots because a lot of them he creates for himself or as a ball handler in the pick and roll. We could run more catch and shoot plays for Dunleavy maybe, but 8 more per game would be a lot.

As was said earlier, Moute has seemed like he is on a mission to prove he has a well rounded offensive game, but so far it isn't going very well. His post moves look polished, but he turns it over or fails to finish way too often. He draws fouls well for his usage rate but isn't a good FT shooter. His TS of .463 is really bad. I'm ok with him shooting it when he is wide open but I could live without the stepback jumpers and all the turnovers.
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Post#177 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:26 pm by crkone

ampd wrote:Its not easy to divvy up Monta's shots because a lot of them he creates for himself or as a ball handler in the pick and roll. We could run more catch and shoot plays for Dunleavy maybe, but 8 more per game would be a lot.

As was said earlier, Moute has seemed like he is on a mission to prove he has a well rounded offensive game, but so far it isn't going very well. His post moves look polished, but he turns it over or fails to finish way too often. He draws fouls well for his usage rate but isn't a good FT shooter. His TS of .463 is really bad. I'm ok with him shooting it when he is wide open but I could live without the stepback jumpers and all the turnovers.


That is on the coach to figure out but it mainly means that Monta has to be gone or at least out of the starting lineup. Dunleavy should get more opportunities to create at the top of the key, or have more double screens ran for him. Dunleavy works nicely with the bigs on pick and rolls.
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Post#178 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:27 pm by crkone

And Moute has been trying too hard to force things. I don't want to tell him to stop just yet as he seems to be trying to expand his game.
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Post#179 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:47 pm by AussieBuck

N8Frog wrote:What is the general take on Moute right now? Statisically it looks like he's having a rough year. Majority of his #'s are below his career average. His usage and field goal attempts are the highest ever, but his TS% is 5% below his career average at 46.3% and his Offense Rating is 93 (career avg 107). His FG% is just under 41% and his FT% is down. His turnovers are up. I don't know what stat people generally use (if any) to determine defensive prowess, but his D rating is at 105 which is around his career average.

Its funny on the eye ball test I felt Moute has become a better offensive player, but then looking at the stats it paints a totally different picture.

(All stats from Basketball Reference)

Defensive rating doesn't really capture an individual's defense that well. I'd say he's struggling offensively mostly because he's playing more SF.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Post#180 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:09 pm by Nowak008

2 Portland deals I think could help both teams. Though I'm probably overrating Tobes value to other teams.

Ersan/Udoh/Tobes for Batum

Ersan/Tobes for Mathews/filler
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Post#181 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:10 pm by LUKE23

Nowak008 wrote:2 Portland deals I think could help both teams. Though I'm probably overrating Tobes value to other teams.

Ersan/Udoh/Tobes for Batum

Ersan/Tobes for Mathews/filler


Second deal is pretty crappy. I like Wes too. Much rather see Tobias develop. We can find a Matthews level player if we're smart via FA or draft.
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Post#182 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:12 pm by Baddy Chuck

Nowak008 wrote:2 Portland deals I think could help both teams. Though I'm probably overrating Tobes value to other teams.

Ersan/Udoh/Tobes for Batum

Ersan/Tobes for Mathews/filler

I think you are overrating Tobes a little but Ersan by quite a bit. Also that Portland would be trading a starter in either situation for an $8 million a year guy to back up their best player.
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Post#183 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:28 pm by mattg

None of the Portland deals are even close. I swear some of you guys don't even look at things from another teams perspective. Portland has zero guard depth and the worst bench in the nba, it's pretty obvious they aren't trading their solid starting SG for what amounts to spare parts. They'd have no one else at that position. As for batum, he's been portlands premier young prospect for years, and has finally broken out after they paid him, why would they ever deal him for what we're offering?
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Post#184 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:42 pm by Nowak008

LUKE23 wrote:
Second deal is pretty crappy. I like Wes too. Much rather see Tobias develop. We can find a Matthews level player if we're smart via FA or draft.


I think it would balance out our team nicely and would make us better this year. Move Ellis to the bench as a instant offense guy and less time on the court where both he and Jennings are not on the court together.

mattg wrote:None of the Portland deals are even close. I swear some of you guys don't even look at things from another teams perspective. Portland has zero guard depth and the worst bench in the nba, it's pretty obvious they aren't trading their solid starting SG for what amounts to spare parts. They'd have no one else at that position. As for batum, he's been portlands premier young prospect for years, and has finally broken out after they paid him, why would they ever deal him for what we're offering?


Well that's why I made those proposals - they have the worst bench in the league. I think the deals come down to what you think of Harris. If you think he isn't worth much, then yea, these deals are trash for Portland.
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Post#185 Re: PG: Bucks beat Portland
Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:01 pm by mattg

So they have the worst bench and you propose to 'fix' that problem for them by having them give up a starter(and thus have to start an awful current bench player) while gaining minimal depth? Doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't they just keep their starters, and then sign some FAs to fill out the bench in the offseason?
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