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Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Speights and others)

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Post#16 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:23 pm by LUKE23

DWagner85 wrote:That is something I hope the Bucks never become


I'm not necessarily high on Waiters, Thompson, or Zeller. I think they could have drafted better with all of those picks, even though none of them will bust. That said, adding another likely top 5 pick to Irving, and still having the Varejao trade asset to use in the offseason (with 2 years remaining he should be able to get a pretty decent return, although he should have been moved earlier) with no bad contracts on the books, they are set up pretty well if they don't blow it.

They have the most important piece though, an alpha dog. We still need that and it's really hard to get.
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Post#17 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:32 pm by averageposter

One of these trades happens nearly every year and you are left shaking your head because the Bucks who absolutely have refused to go the tank rebuild route could have been making these type deals all along and grabbing draft assets that way. Even if those assets simply amount to trade chips its well worth the effort. All you really have to do is have the space to do so and be there when they call.

You have to think as the Luxury tax penalty increases here that this type of deal would potentially become more and more available as teams adjust to the impending tax. Maybe there's a window here to make a couple of these deals if you have the room. I think I'd be more inclined then ever to be ready for the opportunity in the next year or two.
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Post#18 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:43 pm by jeremyd236

I don't get why every trade thread not involving the Bucks turns into people bitching about the Bucks not making that trade or a similar trade. Not necessarily in this case, but in most situations, the bitching isn't even accurate (We could have gotten Harden!)

This is a deal that involved two teams, neither of which have a situation that closely mirrors the Bucks at all (full rebuild & cap space vs. avoiding luxury tax). I think the trade works well for both teams, but the deal certainly has potential to benefit Cleveland more as they get a potential 1st round pick and a bunch of role players for a guy they weren't playing anyways.
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Post#19 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:00 pm by averageposter

jeremyd236 wrote:I don't get why every trade thread not involving the Bucks turns into people bitching about the Bucks not making that trade or a similar trade. Not necessarily in this case, but in most situations, the bitching isn't even accurate (We could have gotten Harden!)
.


I don't know about every trade, but this kind of trade is a very plausible trade for just about any team. Cap space rentals require only cap space. Its fairly obvious by now the Bucks have been trying to retool while winning, and whether you agree or disagree with that process it does limit the kind of deals you can make. Your own assets are middling, future assets like your own draft pick are middling. The ones that aren't you need for your own success. When you couple that with the lack of draw to sign big talent, you start to see moves like the one just executed as the only way to bolster your asset pool without sabotaging the goal. Also perhaps only way to do so while hoping to strike it rich.

Granted the Bucks don't have the space at the moment, but the players keeping that space from the Bucks are not contributing to their success, Its the Gooden's, Dalembert's, etc. That always seem to be here and never seem to contribute. I guess its that realization that makes it seem entirely possible to compete and rebuild, the Rockets did it for quite some time.

Deals like the Harden one don't bother me at all because that kind of deal only happens if you have the assets and Houston spent a year or two doing deals like the above. But you have to start somewhere.
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Post#20 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:00 pm by BucksFanSD

Turk Nowitzki wrote:
BucksFanSD wrote:
Turk Nowitzki wrote:I found it interesting that the Grizzlies immediately signed Bill Walker, Delonte West, and Sasha Vujacic to replace the players they traded.


I am glad Delonte West is playing basketball again. He seems to be serious in getting his his bipolar disorder under control and not making the same mistakes as in the past.

What leads you to believe that? The Mavs released him in the preseason because he was causing problems and at least one but likely more teams have passed on signing him since because they don't want to deal with him.


Nothing makes me sure he will or he won't. He seemed very apologetic and posted his resume on twitter right after being released by the Mavs. Maybe he does that every time though. He hasn't been in any trouble of late to my knowledge and maybe he realizes he's done if he gets one more bad report from a team he's on.
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Post#21 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:15 pm by Nebula1

Damn I liked Speights and Ellington. But now Leuer is moving in to change the culture.

I hate giving up the pick.
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Post#22 Re: Leur for 1st
Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:26 pm by jr lucosa

emunney wrote:This is about cap space, not Jon Leuer. File this one under, "Things to tell people when they ask why we should try to get cap space because no big free agent will ever sign with us."



Yep.
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Post#23 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:30 pm by Baddy Chuck

Good trade for both teams. Hope Leuer gets some playing time.
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Post#24 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:38 pm by gbmb34

I don't think the Bucks are losing any sleep that they are not in the position to make a trade like this. They didn't get a piece that is remotely interesting, minus maybe Shelby, and with the protections on the pick, its unlikely to amount to much.
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Post#25 Re: Leur for 1st
Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:50 pm by whatthe_buck!?

emunney wrote:This is about cap space, not Jon Leuer. File this one under, "Things to tell people when they ask why we should try to get cap space because no big free agent will ever sign with us."

QFT
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Post#26 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:51 pm by jeremyd236

averageposter wrote:
jeremyd236 wrote:I don't get why every trade thread not involving the Bucks turns into people bitching about the Bucks not making that trade or a similar trade. Not necessarily in this case, but in most situations, the bitching isn't even accurate (We could have gotten Harden!)
.


I don't know about every trade, but this kind of trade is a very plausible trade for just about any team. Cap space rentals require only cap space. Its fairly obvious by now the Bucks have been trying to retool while winning, and whether you agree or disagree with that process it does limit the kind of deals you can make. Your own assets are middling, future assets like your own draft pick are middling. The ones that aren't you need for your own success. When you couple that with the lack of draw to sign big talent, you start to see moves like the one just executed as the only way to bolster your asset pool without sabotaging the goal. Also perhaps only way to do so while hoping to strike it rich.

Granted the Bucks don't have the space at the moment, but the players keeping that space from the Bucks are not contributing to their success, Its the Gooden's, Dalembert's, etc. That always seem to be here and never seem to contribute. I guess its that realization that makes it seem entirely possible to compete and rebuild, the Rockets did it for quite some time.

Deals like the Harden one don't bother me at all because that kind of deal only happens if you have the assets and Houston spent a year or two doing deals like the above. But you have to start somewhere.


I agree with you that we could have made this kind of deal if we had the cap space, however we don't. But I don't like looking back in agony on what we could (or should) have done, especially because we not only didn't know this type of deal would be available, but also that we'd be the team selected to make the deal with Memphis. Talking about a future plan to hopefully be in a position to make a deal like this is one thing, but angrily looking back in hypotheticals is another.
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Post#27 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:09 pm by paulpressey25

jeremyd236 wrote: Talking about a future plan to hopefully be in a position to make a deal like this is one thing, but angrily looking back in hypotheticals is another.


The frustration here is that our owner and GM are never forward thinking. The collective on this board can usually spot coming trends as it relates to free agents available, strength of draft, where the luxury tax will be set, etc and with it offer suggestions of how to position the team to take advantage of it.

Our team never does any of these creative things. We just always "react" to whatever is pressing against us that particular month. No vision. No forward planning.

I also disagree with the note above that this draft pick is "meh". The odds are good that Memphis will be a "meh" franchise in two years and that the pick could be in the 6-14 range. Those trades with the funky picks always seem to come back to bite the franchise that dealt them.

Back in 2007 the Warriors dealt a future first away to the Nets for "Marcus Williams". Remember him? That first then got used by the Nets in the Deron deal and went to Utah. If it wasn't for a massive GSW tank job and end of season coin flip, that pick would have been Drummond and it would have gone to Utah.
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Post#28 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:41 pm by HurricaneKid

Whoa. Memphis is going to fall to what in two years? How could they possibly drop that far? They lost Gay for almost an entire year and they were still elite. Then they lost ZBo for a full year and didn't miss a beat. I know 2 years is a while but I find it unlikely they could drop far enough for that pick to be that valuable.
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Post#29 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:56 pm by emunney

Define 'elite'.

It's not that hard to fall out of the top 8 in the West. Dallas won the whole thing two years ago.
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Post#30 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:14 pm by paulpressey25

HurricaneKid wrote:Whoa. Memphis is going to fall to what in two years? How could they possibly drop that far? They lost Gay for almost an entire year and they were still elite. Then they lost ZBo for a full year and didn't miss a beat. I know 2 years is a while but I find it unlikely they could drop far enough for that pick to be that valuable.


I see Memphis as a collection of really good players and zero superstars. We know those type of teams can be unsustainable. I'm not predicting they'll fall apart but remember that they have zero flexibility now to add anything because of what they are paying Conley, Zach, Gasol and Gay. Have Gasol blow an ACL and it's over for them.

Remember how people here and around the league felt about the Milwaukee Bucks after the 2001 season? We had a similar team. No superstars but some really good players like Memphis. And we had payroll problems with that team. We were into the luxury tax which was going to necessitate us trading at least one of the "big four" if not two of them.

As people recall, our 2002 draft pick was a lotto pick (#13). No one in 2001 would have said we'd be lotto the next year and miss the playoffs.

Further, as part of our lux tax problems in fall 2001 we sent a first round pick out to Denver in order for them to take Scott Williams and his $5mm off our hands to avoid the lux tax. That pick later got dealt to the Hawks and ended up being Josh Smith. Who saw that coming?

And heck, I forgot what may turn out to the best example of all. What if the Lakers miss the playoffs this year? Their lotto pick goes unprotected to the Suns. If that transpires, did anyone here see that coming?
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Post#31 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:40 pm by 4xBuck

Yeah, Memphis will be spinning their wheels a little bit.
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Post#32 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:06 pm by Ayt

Now they need to find a way to trade Gay.
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Post#33 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:22 pm by Baddy Chuck

Ayt wrote:Now they need to find a way to trade Gay.

Yeah I still think they should've traded Gay to get under the tax instead of those pieces.
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Post#34 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:28 pm by paulpressey25

I have no problem trading a first round pick during the season of that draft, where I know the draft class and have some clue as what my pick position might be.

But most teams that trade first round picks years out with these crazy formulas usually get burned.
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Post#35 Re: Cleveland-Memphis deal (Leuer for 1st, Sp
Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:31 pm by giraldo5

Baddy Chuck wrote:
Ayt wrote:Now they need to find a way to trade Gay.

Yeah I still think they should've traded Gay to get under the tax instead of those pieces.


Watched teh entire Pacers/Griizlies game. Gay looked dreadful and over matched vs George. Where did all of his athleticism go? I can't imagine teams are lining up to get him. But then again Grunfeld and Colangelo still have jobs.
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