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PG: Brandon > Holiday

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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#166 » by kid idioteque » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:19 am

It's all too easy to want to keep Ersan after the last two games, but his numbers are very similar to Gasol's (who is, by all accounts, having a disastrous season). The most interesting part is how different their situations are.

Ersan just got paid and has had lots of opportunity this season to solidify himself as a bona fide starter, while Gasol has been in the middle of the worst locker room in the league, under far more pressure, and has a contract year coming up.

Ultimately, it's unclear who has the higher ceiling in the short term. Ersan has more potential but no consistency, while Gasol has been a big part of some hugely successful teams and has been reliable outside of the last year or two.

IMO, Gasol is the better gamble short term and long term for the Bucks. Worst case we get a guy that gives us what Ersan has given us most nights this season. Best case is Gasol returns to form, we win some playoff series, and Henson gets the starting role in 2014.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#167 » by AussieBuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:36 am

I can't believe there's so much talk of trading Ersan for Pau. I can't think of many more stupid things. If you are trading for Pau it's to play him predominately at C and giving him the space to operate as the offensive hub. Any combinatin you play with him without Ersan leaves him in the same position he was in at LA. If you are trading for Pau it's to play him for the most part beside Ersan.

On the topic of Ersan it's kinda weird that most of the posters here embrace the various +/- stuff that shows that Gooden and the other awful vets we've had suck and then don't believe the same stuff that says we have always been consistently better on both sides of the ball with Ersan playing.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#168 » by AussieBuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:37 am

cellomac1212 wrote:Someone from the Bucks should be going to the ASG. I know the general favorite between Monta and Jennings is definitely Jennings here, but what do you think the coaches think about the Monta and Jennings when they have to make a pick? Jennings has been the hotter player lately, but over the course of the season the coaches will look at this to make their decision:

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I'm sure of the response this will get already, but thought I should post it anyway as popular player might be the determining factor if either make it.

Monta isn't in the best 5 players on the Bucks.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#169 » by Baddy Chuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:40 am

AussieBuck wrote:Any combinatin you play with him without Ersan leaves him in the same position he was in at LA.

Except instead of Pau Gasol, one of the most talented post scorers in the game, rotting at the perimeter you have Larry Sanders out there, someone who creates a miniscule amount of offense.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#170 » by AussieBuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:51 am

Baddy Chuck wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:Any combinatin you play with him without Ersan leaves him in the same position he was in at LA.

Except instead of Pau Gasol, one of the most talented post scorers in the game, rotting at the perimeter you have Larry Sanders out there, someone who creates a miniscule amount of offense.

Sure put Larry there, his man will be happily doubling Pau. Gasol smothered and Larry shooing jumpers = massive fail.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#171 » by Baddy Chuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:56 am

AussieBuck wrote:
Baddy Chuck wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:Any combinatin you play with him without Ersan leaves him in the same position he was in at LA.

Except instead of Pau Gasol, one of the most talented post scorers in the game, rotting at the perimeter you have Larry Sanders out there, someone who creates a miniscule amount of offense.

Sure put Larry there, his man will be happily doubling Pau. Gasol smothered and Larry shooing jumpers = massive fail.

And arguably the best post passer in the game today will hit Larry cutting to the basket for an easy bucket.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#172 » by AussieBuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:59 am

I'm guessing you're just pretending to not understand the importance of spacing. There will always be 2 bigs at the basket in this scenario. Just like when we started Udoh/Larry and Luc/Larry.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#173 » by Baddy Chuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:07 am

AussieBuck wrote:I'm guessing you're just pretending to not understand the importance of spacing. There will always be 2 bigs at the basket in this scenario. Just like when we started Udoh/Larry and Luc/Larry.

And I think you are underestimating how much a post scorer like Gasol can overcome that.

Also, he shouldn't be shooting 6+ a game especially from 20+ feet, but Gasol is still a midrange threat. He can step out and open the lane.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#174 » by AussieBuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:22 am

He took a massive dive in performance one Odom was traded and he was forced to play much more PF. He's Al Jefferson at best if you put him next to a clogging C.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#175 » by Baddy Chuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:30 am

AussieBuck wrote:He took a massive dive in performance one Odom was traded and he was forced to play much more PF. He's Al Jefferson at best if you put him next to a clogging C.

And that's greatly to do with the fact that he was asked to be a perimeter four when he shouldn't be. Al Jefferson plays center and chooses to shot those shots, not because that's what their offense dictates, but because he isn't a smart player. Gasol is basically being forced to shoot those jumpers in the offense and Al Jefferson still shoots more long twos then him.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#176 » by AussieBuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:32 am

Baddy Chuck wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:He took a massive dive in performance one Odom was traded and he was forced to play much more PF. He's Al Jefferson at best if you put him next to a clogging C.

And that's greatly to do with the fact that he was asked to be a perimeter four when he shouldn't be. Al Jefferson plays center and chooses to shot those shots, not because that's what their offense dictates, but because he isn't a smart player.

Defenses are going to decide that Pau's a perimeter 4. I'd bet a large amount of money Pau at the Bucks at PF would be a below average efficiency scorer.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#177 » by Baddy Chuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:45 am

AussieBuck wrote:Defenses are going to decide that Pau's a perimeter 4. I'd bet a large amount of money Pau at the Bucks at PF would be a below average efficiency scorer.

Defenses will decide that if you camp his out farther. If you put him in the post where he belongs most power forwards will not be able to guard him and they will put centers on him. With centers on him that's where Gasol steps out to 8 feet and can shoot the jumper or take them off the drive while still being able to post them up. From 15+ feet with athletic power forwards guarding him he can't do that and his jumper isn't as reliable. I'd be willing to take your bet pretty easily.

It would be nice to pair Gasol and a more consistent Ersan, but that just isn't going to happen. Gasol alone fixes a lot of your halfcourt offensive woes which is where we truly suffer. He gives us our only legit post player, a center not named Sanders actually worthy of minutes and a pick and roll player you can actually pass the ball to. He also gives you a guy you can pair with Sanders to defend some of the tougher post matchups like Hibbert/West and Boozer/Noah without being a complete liability on offense and he is a huge offensive mismatch against smaller teams.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#178 » by SpursNBucks » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:00 am

Baddy Chuck wrote:
Turk Nowitzki wrote:
Baddy Chuck wrote:Agree with everything Sparky is saying about Ersan and Gasol right now.

What is he saying?

You do the trade because Gasol will be the more consistent player and by the time Gasol leaves Henson will be ready to take over leaving minimal minutes for Ersan.


I wouldn't trade Ersan-- bessides Gasol makes $19mill next two years and his career has been going downhill for last few years. I would make the trade if they could move him for Daly, Gooden, and Udrih. Get Duhon or Blake as a throw-in backup PG. The Lakers MUST get him out of dodge- so Bucks have leverage.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#179 » by AussieBuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:02 am

He'll be guarded by the opposing 5. he'll be given the 20 footer like he generally is now. If he tries to go off the dribble he'll have to get past his guy then the other big. If he was Blake Griffin and we had Chris Paul maybe it would work. Post bigs just don't work in the modern NBA with lane clogging teammates.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#180 » by Baddy Chuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:12 am

AussieBuck wrote:He'll be guarded by the opposing 5. he'll be given the 20 footer like he generally is now. If he tries to go off the dribble he'll have to get past his guy then the other big. If he was Blake Griffin and we had Chris Paul maybe it would work. Post bigs just don't work in the modern NBA with lane clogging teammates.

And the point is you don't have him 20 feet out. He's your main option on offense, his post play in the best offensive option this team would have. He would be the only guy on our team who could consistently create his own offense. You act like Larry's man will be in the paint entire time and if the double came that Gasol wouldn't be able to pass the ball. Set Larry up on one side and Gasol on the other, let Gasol work and he is a very capable player to make a two foot hook shot before the second guy comes or passing off. He's not a turnover machine who unconscionably shoots long twos because he's an idiot like you make him out to be.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#181 » by AussieBuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:15 am

Duncan/Splitter play some minutes together but they only combine for 51 minutes a game. It just doesn't tend to happen successfully. Memphis works because ZBo works the baseline out to 18 feet and M Gasol works the high post generally out to similar depth. Gasol's offense would suffer like Boozer's when he had to go from good spacing to hanging with Noah.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#182 » by Baddy Chuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:23 am

AussieBuck wrote:Duncan/Splitter play some minutes together but they only combine for 51 minutes a game. It just doesn't tend to happen successfully. Memphis works because ZBo works the baseline out to 18 feet and M Gasol works the high post generally out to similar depth. Gasol's offense would suffer like Boozer's when he had to go from good spacing to hanging with Noah.

And I'd say Boozer suffers because he's no longer in the best pick and roll tandem in the league and he was always more reliant on his midrange game then his post game unlike Gasol.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#183 » by AussieBuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:38 am

A post game is going to more affected by lack of spacing than a midrange game. I have no idea why this is even an argument. We've already seen Gasol's efficiency drop from having to play next to a C and here he'd have to work with a lot more defensive attention.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#184 » by Baddy Chuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:44 am

AussieBuck wrote:A post game is going to more affected by lack of spacing than a midrange game. I have no idea why this is even an argument. We've already seen Gasol's efficiency drop from having to play next to a C and here he'd have to work with a lot more defensive attention.

We aren't arguing that it isn't harder to score in the paint with less spacing, I'm arguing that despite the spacing issues Gasol has proved he can score in the post. I'd say his efficiency dropped more due to him being pushed out of the lane then clogging the lane. He's still a very above average scorer in the post at 65+% (while being assisted less on those baskets) the past two seasons with Bynum and Dwight's cover in the lane and unlike those players, Larry doesn't need or deserve designed touches for him in the post.
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Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#185 » by AussieBuck » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:40 am

He's at 31FG% in post ups.
aol4532 wrote:what exactly is the difference between him (Bill Russell), and say a guy like Ryan Hollins, who is 20 lbs heavier and can get his head over the rim? He would get in foul trouble so quick, just trying to hold position.

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