ImageImage

PG: Brandon > Holiday

Moderators: paulpressey25, MickeyDavis

H2tObes
RealGM
Posts: 19,563
And1: 10,022
Joined: Oct 18, 2012

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#341 » by H2tObes » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:58 am

Jrue only has one other teammate averaging at least 2 apg, that teammate being Evan Turner at 4.5 apg.

Holiday is really good at creating, but still doesn't hold a candle to CP3's or Rondo's of the league. Paul especially, he plays the position to perfection.

If Jennings was nearly as good of a creater/passer as Jrue, he would be a perennial all-star
User avatar
emunney
RealGM
Posts: 59,984
And1: 36,358
Joined: Feb 22, 2005
Location: where takes go to be pampered

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#342 » by emunney » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:08 am

76ers have some capable passers on their team but their ball movement is not what it used to be. It's all on Holiday now, or Turner when Holiday's sitting. I don't mean that as a knock on Holiday. It's a coaching decision.
Here are more legal notices regarding the Posts
User avatar
CanadaBucks
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,374
And1: 314
Joined: Sep 14, 2012

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#343 » by CanadaBucks » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:10 am

blazza18 wrote:
CanadaBucks wrote:
Baddy Chuck wrote:Then instead of Paul use Jason Kidd, Rajon Rondo and Steve Nash. The point still stands, Jrue Holiday, despite being turnover prone, is head and shoulders above Jennings in creating baskets for his teammates and this team needs that.



We are 15th in apg, one notch below the 76ers.



How does that prove a anything ? Who else do the 6ers have to create ? We have BJ, Ellis and Beno.


creating baskets for his teammates and this team needs that.


We have lots of people creating, who said it has to be mainly one guy? What difference does apg mean anyway?
whatthe_buck!?
Banned User
Posts: 5,142
And1: 163
Joined: Jul 20, 2006

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#344 » by whatthe_buck!? » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:10 am

blazza18 wrote:
CanadaBucks wrote:
Baddy Chuck wrote:Then instead of Paul use Jason Kidd, Rajon Rondo and Steve Nash. The point still stands, Jrue Holiday, despite being turnover prone, is head and shoulders above Jennings in creating baskets for his teammates and this team needs that.



We are 15th in apg, one notch below the 76ers.



How does that prove a anything ? Who else do the 6ers have to create ? We have BJ, Ellis and Beno.

You're right, that proves nothing and doesn't really say anything about Jennings vs Holiday, but then again it does bring up the interesting idea that there are 3 guys (i would actually include dunleavy as well so that makes 4) that have within their skillset the ability to create scoring opportunities for their teammates to a certain extent whereas to the best of my knowledge Holiday is pretty much the only guy on the Sixers with that ability. From that couldn't it be argued it may be possible that if Jennings was the sole "creator" on his team that he might put up more assists? Not only because he would be forced to do it more but also because he would be more practiced at it and therefore better at it since that would be to a much greater extent his role? And considering that his assist to turnover ratio is currently very close to Holidays wouldn't it stand to reason that his increased apg would come at the same efficiency as holidays -or maybe even at a better efficiency because of the aforementioned greater skill at doing so that may be the result of him doing it more and therefore being more comfortable/better at it-? Just sayin...
User avatar
CanadaBucks
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,374
And1: 314
Joined: Sep 14, 2012

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#345 » by CanadaBucks » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:11 am

whatthe_buck!? wrote:
blazza18 wrote:

We are 15th in apg, one notch below the 76ers.



How does that prove a anything ? Who else do the 6ers have to create ? We have BJ, Ellis and Beno.

You're right, that proves nothing and doesn't really say anything about Jennings vs Holiday, but then again it does bring up the interesting idea that there are 3 guys (i would actually include dunleavy as well so that makes 4) that have within their skillset the ability to create scoring opportunities for their teammates to a certain extent whereas to the best of my knowledge Holiday is pretty much the only guy on the Sixers with that ability. From that couldn't it be argued it may be possible that if Jennings was the sole "creator" on his team that he might put up more assists? Not only because he would be forced to do it more but also because he would be more practiced at it and therefore better at it since that would be to a much greater extent his role? And considering that his assist to turnover ratio is currently very close to Holidays wouldn't it stand to reason that his increased apg would come at the same efficiency as holidays -or maybe even at a better efficiency because of the aforementioned greater skill at doing so that may be the result of him doing it more and therefore being more comfortable/better at it-? Just sayin...[/quote]

Thanks...Evan Turner 4.4apg
User avatar
Baddy Chuck
RealGM
Posts: 49,519
And1: 22,605
Joined: Apr 18, 2006
 

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#346 » by Baddy Chuck » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:34 am

Brandon, Monta, Beno and Dunleavy are all capable passers but none of them are consistent creators. They make the easy passes to guys but outside of Monta every once in a while none of them go out of their way to create offense for teammates, that's what Holiday does. He's not just swinging the ball the around the outside and hitting the occasional man, he's attacking the defense and making them react, not reacting to the defense. It's like comparing Jose Calderon to Rajon Rondo, and Calderon is a more capable passer then any of the guys we have. Look at last night. Ekpe Udoh has the easiest fastbreak basket of his life, Brandon could not hit the pass causing Ekpe to catch it under the hoop and run out of bounds. It's things like that that Brandon does worse then most point guards let alone creating for players. He's an average passer for a point guard and a pretty below average creator and that is the main reason why he doesn't get many assists and his turnovers are low.
John Henson wrote:This lady just asked me who I play for and I said the Milwaukee Bucks, she quickly replied “oh the highschool across the street?”
Max Green
RealGM
Posts: 16,294
And1: 4,668
Joined: Jul 04, 2007
Location: Heelville
 

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#347 » by Max Green » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:34 am

If you count Philly we are currently 12-5 against teams competing for the Playoffs. If we are just counting teams currently in the playoffs we are 10-5 which is best amongst Playoffs teams in the East.
Vice President of Parker-Nation.
#Jabariunleashed
#OwnTheFuture
:wizard: Maxtradamus
mattg
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,985
Joined: Feb 12, 2007

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#348 » by mattg » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:36 am

Well that's the thing, APG is not really a true measure of how good at creating shots someone is, it's more a function of role/offensive system. Look at a guy like Darren collision when he backed up CP3 in NO. People thought the guy was a superb playmaker who was a future perennial double digit assist guy. Then he gets traded to the pacers and gets like 5 APG and everyone is all like "wtf happened, how'd he fall off so much?" He was the same exact player but just in a different system. New Orleans spammed ball screens and let their PGs dominate the ball for the entirety of offensive possessions, thus he racked up asssists(not to mention their suspect scorekeeper down there...). Indiana on the other hand ran a motion offense where collision would give up the ball early in a possession, then would be off ball until the ball swung back around, usually near the end of the shot clock where he'd have to make a play. For those unfamiliar with motion, it is usually initiated by the PG passing off to the wing right away, and then cutting through and respacing. It centers around ball movement, and guys screening and cutting constantly away from the ball. Its very hard for individual players to rack up high amounts of assists when running motion because the ball gets spread around and it isn't reliant on a single individual playmaker. The bucks run a lot of motion concept stuff which is why you see our assists spread out between numerous players. It's also why I always laugh when people say things like "Jennings plays more like a SG than a PG!" when he's working off ball. Motion is really fun to watch when you have guys who know how to play with and without the ball, and its also why sometimes the bucks can look like offensive juggernauts with certain lineups(think Jennings/beno/dunleavy, or games when monta decides to not be a moron). Motion also features a lot less ball screen action compared to most nba offense.
User avatar
blazza18
RealGM
Posts: 53,123
And1: 26,372
Joined: Dec 02, 2010
       

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#349 » by blazza18 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:49 am

Max Green wrote:If you count Philly we are currently 12-5 against teams competing for the Playoffs. If we are just counting teams currently in the playoffs we are 10-5 which is best amongst Playoffs teams in the East.


Kinda cool. And this is why it sucks when we lay an egg against teams we really should beat. Hope we can get more consistent over the rest of the season.
Baddy Chuck wrote:I want to win but I also love chaos.
User avatar
CanadaBucks
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,374
And1: 314
Joined: Sep 14, 2012

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#350 » by CanadaBucks » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:51 am

blazza18 wrote:
Max Green wrote:If you count Philly we are currently 12-5 against teams competing for the Playoffs. If we are just counting teams currently in the playoffs we are 10-5 which is best amongst Playoffs teams in the East.


Kinda cool. And this is why it sucks when we lay an egg against teams we really should beat. Hope we can get more consistent over the rest of the season.


But it's progress as last year we couldn't beat the playoff teams, just the cupcakes.
User avatar
Baddy Chuck
RealGM
Posts: 49,519
And1: 22,605
Joined: Apr 18, 2006
 

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#351 » by Baddy Chuck » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:53 am

blazza18 wrote:
Max Green wrote:If you count Philly we are currently 12-5 against teams competing for the Playoffs. If we are just counting teams currently in the playoffs we are 10-5 which is best amongst Playoffs teams in the East.


Kinda cool. And this is why it sucks when we lay an egg against teams we really should beat. Hope we can get more consistent over the rest of the season.

So you're saying we should trade for Gasol ;).
John Henson wrote:This lady just asked me who I play for and I said the Milwaukee Bucks, she quickly replied “oh the highschool across the street?”
User avatar
blazza18
RealGM
Posts: 53,123
And1: 26,372
Joined: Dec 02, 2010
       

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#352 » by blazza18 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:02 am

Baddy Chuck wrote:So you're saying we should trade for Gasol ;).


I'm not sure about that anymore. I'd rather go get Redick/Afflalo.
Baddy Chuck wrote:I want to win but I also love chaos.
whatthe_buck!?
Banned User
Posts: 5,142
And1: 163
Joined: Jul 20, 2006

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#353 » by whatthe_buck!? » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:12 am

Baddy Chuck wrote:Brandon, Monta, Beno and Dunleavy are all capable passers but none of them are consistent creators. They make the easy passes to guys but outside of Monta every once in a while none of them go out of their way to create offense for teammates, that's what Holiday does. He's not just swinging the ball the around the outside and hitting the occasional man, he's attacking the defense and making them react, not reacting to the defense. It's like comparing Jose Calderon to Rajon Rondo, and Calderon is a more capable passer then any of the guys we have. Look at last night. Ekpe Udoh has the easiest fastbreak basket of his life, Brandon could not hit the pass causing Ekpe to catch it under the hoop and run out of bounds. It's things like that that Brandon does worse then most point guards let alone creating for players. He's an average passer for a point guard and a pretty below average creator and that is the main reason why he doesn't get many assists and his turnovers are low.

Oh I definitely get what you're saying and I don't disagree, I understand the differentiation you're laying out and you're correct to do so. My post doesn't disregard the distinction you're making however. My point goes much more towards the role a player is asked to play.

Who's to say that if Baddy Nobrains McChuckerson was given Holidays role in that type of offense for a couple years that he wouldn't be able to achieve Holidays proficiency or greater? Are u to say that? Ok nevermind I know u would say that, but I would caution u in doing so only because we've never seen Jennings asked to embrace that role full time other than in his second year in the league -at the age of 20- because whether its with Ellis this year, udrih last year, or ridnour in his rookie season he's almost always been asked to fufill a kind of hybrid pg-sg/co-pg role (not to mention playing under the creativity-stifling hair-trigger-tempered eye of one Scotty Skiles).

Now u would probably argue that maybe the reason he's never been fully given the reigns as the creator in the offense may have something to do with the coach and/or management not seeing what they need to see to have faith that he has within him the necessary skillset to succeed as the guy we fully rely on to create offensive opportunities and there defintely could be something to that. But I think even u would probably admit that its a possiblity that the reason he's never been given the opportunity to grow into that kind of role may also be because the win-now mandate the team is constantly operating under leaves little room to risk the growing pains that may accompany putting the full decision making responsibilities on a 19-22 yr old point guard. Do u agree that's a possiblity as well?
User avatar
theFireBlanket
RealGM
Posts: 10,417
And1: 3,772
Joined: Feb 23, 2011

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#354 » by theFireBlanket » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:12 am

http://www.nba.com/standings/team_recor ... g_Cnf.html

Record vs. teams over .500 is pretty average with the rest of the EC playoff teams.
DukeH wrote:Plenty, RealGM Bucks Board is the Golden Dawn of forums.


f=21 runs better with Diesel, #FreeChuckDiesel
whatthe_buck!?
Banned User
Posts: 5,142
And1: 163
Joined: Jul 20, 2006

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#355 » by whatthe_buck!? » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:15 am

mattg wrote:Well that's the thing, APG is not really a true measure of how good at creating shots someone is, it's more a function of role/offensive system. Look at a guy like Darren collision when he backed up CP3 in NO. People thought the guy was a superb playmaker who was a future perennial double digit assist guy. Then he gets traded to the pacers and gets like 5 APG and everyone is all like "wtf happened, how'd he fall off so much?" He was the same exact player but just in a different system. New Orleans spammed ball screens and let their PGs dominate the ball for the entirety of offensive possessions, thus he racked up asssists(not to mention their suspect scorekeeper down there...). Indiana on the other hand ran a motion offense where collision would give up the ball early in a possession, then would be off ball until the ball swung back around, usually near the end of the shot clock where he'd have to make a play. For those unfamiliar with motion, it is usually initiated by the PG passing off to the wing right away, and then cutting through and respacing. It centers around ball movement, and guys screening and cutting constantly away from the ball. Its very hard for individual players to rack up high amounts of assists when running motion because the ball gets spread around and it isn't reliant on a single individual playmaker. The bucks run a lot of motion concept stuff which is why you see our assists spread out between numerous players. It's also why I always laugh when people say things like "Jennings plays more like a SG than a PG!" when he's working off ball. Motion is really fun to watch when you have guys who know how to play with and without the ball, and its also why sometimes the bucks can look like offensive juggernauts with certain lineups(think Jennings/beno/dunleavy, or games when monta decides to not be a moron). Motion also features a lot less ball screen action compared to most nba offense.

This is a good post.
4xBuck
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,917
And1: 569
Joined: Sep 07, 2009

Re: PG: Brandon > Holiday 

Post#356 » by 4xBuck » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:36 pm

giraldo5 wrote:
4xBuck wrote:Jennings domination of Holiday was the difference in both games… Switch the two out & the sixers win both games. So, that’s:

Jennings +2
Holliday -2



As another poster mentioned, using this logic is fine and dandy....

As long as also admit that both Brandon Knight and Kemba Walker are better than Jennings

My point isn’t about who’s better; I agree head to head matchups don’t determine who’s the better player… Just because Holiday is Jennings’ biyach, doesn’t necessarily make Jennings the better player.

I’m responding to the ridiculousness that the Bucks would be 8 games better with Jennings’s biyach rather than Jennings.

When factoring in the Bucks would lose the two Philly games with the switch, the Bucks would be -2 from jump street with the switch… So, now Jennings’s biyach would have to win 10 more games to get to 8. He would have had to win 6 more games in the first half to be on pace.

What a joke.

Return to Milwaukee Bucks