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Gortat to OKC for Perk+JLamb+1st Rumor

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Godgers
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Re: Gortat to OKC for Perk+JLamb+1st Rumor 

Post#61 » by Godgers » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:52 pm

Bucks should be going hard for Bledsoe and Gordon.
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Re: Gortat to OKC for Perk+JLamb+1st Rumor 

Post#62 » by whatthe_buck!? » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:57 pm

HurricaneKid wrote:I completely agree that for the Thunder it is about dumping Perk and his salary. It gets them out of a punitive tax situation and all of a sudden they get an asset for someone that a lot of folks expect to get amnestied.

The Suns, correctly, likely turned down the deal. But if you look back at the first few pages people here thought that the Suns package was a poor one to get Perk, Lamb, and their #1 (likely ~29th) and that Hammond could easily put together a much better package around... Dally? So yes, if you think I was being a dick to anyone that felt that Dally was >>>> Gortat I guess I kind of was.

I don't get why people are begging for Monta to opt out at the end of the year but think that some other team is going to pay through the nose to get him. It just doesn't work that way. I think the board at large overestimates ALL our assets; and not by a small amount.

Based on the bolded part of your post it is clear the point, intentionally or unintentionally, is going over ur head. What u are missing is the fact that a players trade value is decided by a lot more than just on court production. You know that. The fact is that Dalys contract expires this season, whereas Gortats extends for another season or two after this one.

While it is impossible to know how much more valuable -if at all- that makes Daly as far as that specific aspect of his trade value compared to Gortat in the eyes of the Thunders FO, but based on what we do know (ie that the reason the thunder are looking to give up assets to move Perkins is to rid themselves of his contract because they are fairly cash-strapped atm), I have zero idea how someone who comes off as smart u do couldn't even begin to conceive of the possibility that Daly could be AS valuable or maybe even MORE valuable in a trade to OKC than Gortat even if I'm conceding to u that Gortat is the better player between the two of them. Is that what you're saying? That u can't even envision how there is a possibility that it could be reasonable based on OKCs motivations for trading Perk that they could value Daly as much or more than Gortat?
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Re: Gortat to OKC for Perk+JLamb+1st Rumor 

Post#63 » by HurricaneKid » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:24 pm

whatthe_buck!? wrote:
HurricaneKid wrote:I completely agree that for the Thunder it is about dumping Perk and his salary. It gets them out of a punitive tax situation and all of a sudden they get an asset for someone that a lot of folks expect to get amnestied.

The Suns, correctly, likely turned down the deal. But if you look back at the first few pages people here thought that the Suns package was a poor one to get Perk, Lamb, and their #1 (likely ~29th) and that Hammond could easily put together a much better package around... Dally? So yes, if you think I was being a dick to anyone that felt that Dally was >>>> Gortat I guess I kind of was.

I don't get why people are begging for Monta to opt out at the end of the year but think that some other team is going to pay through the nose to get him. It just doesn't work that way. I think the board at large overestimates ALL our assets; and not by a small amount.

Based on the bolded part of your post it is clear the point, intentionally or unintentionally, is going over ur head. What u are missing is the fact that a players trade value is decided by a lot more than just on court production. You know that. The fact is that Dalys contract expires this season, whereas Gortats extends for another season or two after this one.

While it is impossible to know how much more valuable -if at all- that makes Daly as far as that specific aspect of his trade value compared to Gortat in the eyes of the Thunders FO, but based on what we do know (ie that the reason the thunder are looking to give up assets to move Perkins is to rid themselves of his contract because they are fairly cash-strapped atm), I have zero idea how someone who comes off as smart u do couldn't even begin to conceive of the possibility that Daly could be AS valuable or maybe even MORE valuable in a trade to OKC than Gortat even if I'm conceding to u that Gortat is the better player between the two of them. Is that what you're saying? That u can't even envision how there is a possibility that it could be reasonable based on OKCs motivations for trading Perk that they could value Daly as much or more than Gortat?


A player's trade value is substantially dictated by their contract. The new CBA is extremely punitive when it comes to taxation (exceeding the tax threshold). This minimizes the value of expiring contracts as in the past it allowed teams with cap issues flexibility. Now teams with cap issues largely just want to get rid of those problems as they are EXPENSIVE. So the biggest real benefit of an expiring is that it provides flexibility by allowing a team to cut bait with a player. Which isn't nearly the benefit it once was. So we are back to evaluating talent and the contract associated with that talent. And frankly, no, I don't believe that there is a GM in the NBA that would value Dally over Gortat. If it truly was OKC's desire to simply cut as much salary as possible and to allow Daly to leave at the end of the year they would STILL prefer Gortat. This is largely due to the fact that Gortat is on a very good contract that would allow OKC- or anyone else- to turn him into a pick at draft time. So they would end up with a better player for a half season and then a pick rather than letting the player leave for nothing.
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Re: Gortat to OKC for Perk+JLamb+1st Rumor 

Post#64 » by whatthe_buck!? » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:36 pm

HurricaneKid wrote:
whatthe_buck!? wrote:
HurricaneKid wrote:I completely agree that for the Thunder it is about dumping Perk and his salary. It gets them out of a punitive tax situation and all of a sudden they get an asset for someone that a lot of folks expect to get amnestied.

The Suns, correctly, likely turned down the deal. But if you look back at the first few pages people here thought that the Suns package was a poor one to get Perk, Lamb, and their #1 (likely ~29th) and that Hammond could easily put together a much better package around... Dally? So yes, if you think I was being a dick to anyone that felt that Dally was >>>> Gortat I guess I kind of was.

I don't get why people are begging for Monta to opt out at the end of the year but think that some other team is going to pay through the nose to get him. It just doesn't work that way. I think the board at large overestimates ALL our assets; and not by a small amount.

Based on the bolded part of your post it is clear the point, intentionally or unintentionally, is going over ur head. What u are missing is the fact that a players trade value is decided by a lot more than just on court production. You know that. The fact is that Dalys contract expires this season, whereas Gortats extends for another season or two after this one.

While it is impossible to know how much more valuable -if at all- that makes Daly as far as that specific aspect of his trade value compared to Gortat in the eyes of the Thunders FO, but based on what we do know (ie that the reason the thunder are looking to give up assets to move Perkins is to rid themselves of his contract because they are fairly cash-strapped atm), I have zero idea how someone who comes off as smart u do couldn't even begin to conceive of the possibility that Daly could be AS valuable or maybe even MORE valuable in a trade to OKC than Gortat even if I'm conceding to u that Gortat is the better player between the two of them. Is that what you're saying? That u can't even envision how there is a possibility that it could be reasonable based on OKCs motivations for trading Perk that they could value Daly as much or more than Gortat?


A player's trade value is substantially dictated by their contract. The new CBA is extremely punitive when it comes to taxation (exceeding the tax threshold). This minimizes the value of expiring contracts as in the past it allowed teams with cap issues flexibility. Now teams with cap issues largely just want to get rid of those problems as they are EXPENSIVE. So the biggest real benefit of an expiring is that it provides flexibility by allowing a team to cut bait with a player. Which isn't nearly the benefit it once was. So we are back to evaluating talent and the contract associated with that talent. And frankly, no, I don't believe that there is a GM in the NBA that would value Dally over Gortat. If it truly was OKC's desire to simply cut as much salary as possible and to allow Daly to leave at the end of the year they would STILL prefer Gortat. This is largely due to the fact that Gortat is on a very good contract that would allow OKC- or anyone else- to turn him into a pick at draft time. So they would end up with a better player for a half season and then a pick rather than letting the player leave for nothing.


*blinks and rubs eyes repeatedly while reading ur post over and over*
I'm trying to understand ur argument. Are u seriously trying to argue that somehow the new, more punitive CBA as far as Lux tax makes it less important/valuable for teams close to the lux tax to unload overpaid relatively replaceable players? If that's seriously going to be the argument u choose to make, my counter is going be that u badly need to read more about the changes implemented in the new CBA versus what it was before and gain a better understanding of it before u continue to hang yourself. Did u notice what Memphis gave up to the Cavs earlier this year to get back Jon f*cking Leuer?
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Re: Gortat to OKC for Perk+JLamb+1st Rumor 

Post#65 » by HurricaneKid » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:46 pm

We are arguing two different things at this point. I am arguing that offering Daly is no where near the package that Pho supposedly had on the table. You are saying offering Daly, etc makes sense for both teams as OKC may very well give up a LOT to get rid of Perk. Which I agree with.

At least I hope that is what you are arguing and not that Gortat is an overpaid replaceable player.
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Re: Gortat to OKC for Perk+JLamb+1st Rumor 

Post#66 » by whatthe_buck!? » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:59 pm

HurricaneKid wrote:We are arguing two different things at this point. I am arguing that offering Daly is no where near the package that Pho supposedly had on the table. You are saying offering Daly, etc makes sense for both teams as OKC may very well give up a LOT to get rid of Perk. Which I agree with.

At least I hope that is what you are arguing and not that Gortat is an overpaid replaceable player.

Maybe that's the problem, but I actually don't think we are arguing two different things. I'm arguing that's its entirely possible that even conceding that Gortat is a better player than Daly, the Thunder may value Daly as much or more in a trade and give up as much or more to get him than they would to get Gortat because the added space to maneuver under the lux tax this offseason and the next that acquiring Daly as opposed to Gortat would offer is very possibly more valuable to them then the added impact Gortat would contribute on the floor as a basketball player. I'm fairly certain you're dismissing that possibility. Then again, I suppose the Thunder could just unload Gortat in the offseason for a second and a trade exception to any team with capspace and a need at center so maybe you're the one with the better argument than me... ;-)
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Re: Gortat to OKC for Perk+JLamb+1st Rumor 

Post#67 » by HurricaneKid » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:14 pm

whatthe_buck!? wrote:
HurricaneKid wrote:We are arguing two different things at this point. I am arguing that offering Daly is no where near the package that Pho supposedly had on the table. You are saying offering Daly, etc makes sense for both teams as OKC may very well give up a LOT to get rid of Perk. Which I agree with.

At least I hope that is what you are arguing and not that Gortat is an overpaid replaceable player.

Maybe that's the problem, but I actually don't think we are arguing two different things. I'm arguing that's its entirely possible that even conceding that Gortat is a better player than Daly, the Thunder may value Daly as much or more in a trade and give up as much or more to get him than they would to get Gortat because the added space to maneuver under the lux tax this offseason and the next that acquiring Daly as opposed to Gortat would offer is very possibly more valuable to them then the added impact Gortat would contribute on the floor as a basketball player. I'm fairly certain you're dismissing that possibility. Then again, I suppose the Thunder could just unload Gortat in the offseason for a second and a trade exception to any team with capspace and a need at center so maybe you're the one with the better argument than me... ;-)


We are on the same page. Players on specific deals carry values. A lot of trades are dumping negative value deals for other negative value deals. Most trades serve a purpose; for Memphis they needed to dump salary and traded a decent player and a draft pick for essentially nothing just so they could dump two player salaries, neither of which was even all that high. But good players on player friendly salaries are highly sought after. Not just because its a good deal on a player but it also affords the team a lot of flexibility. There aren't a lot of teams that wouldn't be happy to pay to get these deals. For instance OKC has Thabo and Collison making a total of ~5.3MM. Any team in the league would be thrilled to take those guys on because the deals are so friendly. So even a team like Memphis who is giving away its future to limit its tax would be happy to take them. Even if they want to duck below the tax they will always be able to find takers for them (not that they are available). Its my position that Gortat is in this category, albeit at a lesser level. Kwame Brown has been a horrible disappointment. But he has career earnings of 58MM+ for just being a big guy. Darko has similarly had earnings of ~48MM. So Gortat, who can actually play, is a bargain at 7MM next year and you will always be able to find a taker for him. So having an asset with a positive value will always net you more than just slicing salary because you can turn them into TPEs and draft picks.
fishnc wrote:If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, Bin Laden, and LeBron, I would shoot LeBron twice.

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