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I think what it boils down to is that because of Tobias' age it's easier to imagine him becoming Bernard King than it is to imagine Redick becoming SG version of Steve Nash. What we need to remember is that neither of those things is ever going to happen. They are only to be imagined.

Meanwhile we could draft Otto Porter, Poythress or Saric and any one of those guys could very well be better than Tobias.

We can debate Harris and that's fine, but to me, how he's viewed shouldn't matter a ton. He's a young unknown that has shown something. He shouldn't be moved to land a UFA who can be signed in the offseason anyway, and who doesn't move us to another tier of team in the interim. The fact that people think a bench SG is going to largely change our fortunes these last 29 games is crazy to me.

Nebula1 wrote:Redick is good and I suspect people will be backing him soon enough. I want to see the Bucks make some noise.

I don't think many are disputing that. It's the surrounding circumstances that people have an issue with. How is this hard for some to grasp?

I like JJ a lot, but not on this team. Not now.

He would've been a great pickup/rental for a team who has a chance to contend/make noise this season.

LUKE23 wrote:We can debate Harris and that's fine, but to me, how he's viewed shouldn't matter a ton. He's a young unknown that has shown something. He shouldn't be moved to land a UFA who can be signed in the offseason anyway, and who doesn't move us to another tier of team in the interim. The fact that people think a bench SG is going to largely change our fortunes these last 29 games is crazy to me.

I agree with your main point that young talent shouldn't be given up for older UFA's, but I think how Harris is viewed matters a ton. We don't know exactly what kind of value he had, at best probably that of a mid-late 1st, but as every year passes, unless he does improve, he just becomes less young and the "prospect" label starts to slip until eventually he is a 24-25 year old bad player.

I really believe in Tobias, so I don't see that being the case, but it definitely could end up being so. Also Redick is more than just "bench SG", he's easily top 10. That's like the argument in the off-season when some people didn't want to trade the farm for a "bench SG" in Harden. Redick is no Harden not even close, but whether he has been starting or coming off the bench doesn't matter when you're ranking positions. "Bench SG" makes it sound like we just traded for Fransisco Garcia or Daequan Cook.

To me the debate is Udrih vs. Redick, and if that upgrade for 29 games is worth Harris. I'd argue hell no it is not.

step3profit wrote:

Ill-yasova wrote:

Nebula1 wrote:Look, the Bucks are going for the Playoffs.. might as well sit back and support it since ain't nothing changing until the summer. Here's hoping they get the 7 or better and steal a first round series. I definitely think Redick helps them pull that off.

Hate giving up Harris, but let's roll.

This response could have literally been copied and pasted from last year's Monta trade thread. People complained about that trade, others said "Hey well at least we're going to the playoffs, we may as well support the team." A year later we're in the same situation and we're supposed to suck it up and cheer for carbon copy of last year? I admire your optimism Nebs, but I just can't get with that line of thinking.

Let's take a moment to appreciate that there is a difference between getting Monta vs. getting Redick, and there is a difference between giving Tobias and giving Bogut. To say these trades are anything close to a carbon copy is doing a disservice to both Redick and Bogut.

Tobias might become a very good player, and I hope he does, and I'm sad it won't be here. But let's not lump in Monta for Bogut with Redick for Harris. Jesus.

The only similarity I was pointing out is that people said "Well at least this guarantees the playoffs and may even be enough to get a first round win." The statement wasn't meant to compare the players who were dealt or received in either trade, just the expectations of some people after the trades.

Time for Luc Moute to step up as well since this was a vote of confidence. I like him checking Carmelo in the first round and maybe he can lift his game down the stretch.

Nebula1 wrote:Redick is good and I suspect people will be backing him soon enough. I want to see the Bucks make some noise.

We all already do back Redick. Other than the occasional poster saying he's redundant to MDJ I'd say 90% of the board would like to see Redick playing for the Bucks. I back him so much I would have loved for the Bucks to go out and sign him in the offseason. But to give up assets for him for a three month rental with no guarantee of retaining him in the future in an effort to accomplish at best a first round drubbing by the Heat is idiotic (Runonsentence).

LUKE23 wrote:To me the debate is Udrih vs. Redick, and if that upgrade for 29 games is worth Harris. I'd argue hell no it is not.

I would agree with you there. Would've rather seen Monta go out than Udrih. I really can't believe Monta is still on this team after the attitude he had the last game before the deadline. He was playing like a guy who had already been traded. I haven't been as critical as most when it comes to Hammond but this is a definite mismanagement of assets at the deadline once again.

But that brings up the argument of, was Hammond interested in moving Monta, did Kohl tell him to ride out guys like Monta for the "playoff push?". If we knew these kinds of things it would make it much easier for me to really judge the job Hammond is doing.

I find it a bit naive to think that any free agent is going to Milwaukee without bird rights and overspending. That is not an nba reality right now. Sorry, but its the cold hard truth.

We have a pile of cap space in the works and the system is working against us as you pretty much have to use it or it gets squeezed but player raises.

Redick is precisely what this team needs. Über efficient, hard working, a positive leader and a genuine floor spacing threat. Many, many people on this board advocated getting him. If not for the hawks fiasco we may have had a shot at a sanders redick moute smith Jennings lineup next year, which I would have enjoyed. Now, we will see.

Either way the overreaction of negativity toward this trade seems a bit excessive, don't you think?

I look at it as two separate issues. I look at not trading Ellis as insane. I don't understand why we wouldn't to be honest. I also look at the Redick trade as a 2-4 year commitment, and not just a 29 game rental. I believe we desperately need an efficient shooter like Redick, that can also help direct/focus Jennings. IMHO, this is a last ditch effort for Jennings to be the player everyone wants him to be. I really hope Redick can help in that regard. Like I said earlier, my biggest concern for this year is the backup 1. Now it would appear that Redick/Ellis are slated for that role. I'm not sure how that will work out. Lastly, if the Bucks call on Tobes is right or wrong still has to be seen, but at the very least, they actually made a call! I'd rather have them make a wrong call on a player than not make one at all. Personally, they have been much more patient with Jennings than I would have.

Ill-yasova wrote:

Nebula1 wrote:Redick is good and I suspect people will be backing him soon enough. I want to see the Bucks make some noise.

We all already do back Redick. Other than the occasional poster saying he's redundant to MDJ I'd say 90% of the board would like to see Redick playing for the Bucks. I back him so much I would have loved for the Bucks to go out and sign him in the offseason. But to give up assets for him for a three month rental with no guarantee of retaining him in the future in an effort to accomplish at best a first round drubbing by the Heat is idiotic (Runonsentence).

Bucks got Gustavo Ayon and ISH SMITH in the deal so the Bucks did get some new assets.

Milwaukee is probably now a front runner to retain Redick next season if they so desire rather than bidding openly against a number of other franchises. IMO, highly unlikely Milwaukee had a real shot at him on the open market.

Milwaukee can do better than getting beat down by Miami in the first round. They may be able to steal a round in the weak East and that would be fun as hell.

Redick is instantly one of the best players on the team and was (by far) the best player in the deal.

Losing Harris sucked, but it's quite possible the Bucks got the best of this deal. And if Harris doesn't turn into a player, they basically stole Redick so give Hammond some credit.

harris and udrih's expiring for a half-season of Redick as the 8th seed is a bad trade and is impossible to be argued any other way.

Nebula1 wrote:

Ill-yasova wrote:

Nebula1 wrote:Redick is good and I suspect people will be backing him soon enough. I want to see the Bucks make some noise.

We all already do back Redick. Other than the occasional poster saying he's redundant to MDJ I'd say 90% of the board would like to see Redick playing for the Bucks. I back him so much I would have loved for the Bucks to go out and sign him in the offseason. But to give up assets for him for a three month rental with no guarantee of retaining him in the future in an effort to accomplish at best a first round drubbing by the Heat is idiotic (Runonsentence).

Bucks got Gustavo Ayon and ISH SMITH in the deal so the Bucks did get some new assets.

Milwaukee is probably now a front runner to retain Redick next season if they so desire rather than bidding openly against a number of other franchises. IMO, highly unlikely Milwaukee had a real shot at him on the open market.

Milwaukee can do better than getting beat down by Miami in the first round. They may be able to steal a round in the weak East and that would be fun as hell.

Redick is instantly one of the best players on the team and was (by far) the best player in the deal.

Losing Harris sucked, but it's quite possible the Bucks got the best of this deal. And if Harris doesn't turn into a player, they basically stole Redick so give Hammond some credit.

Redick is going where the most money is, maybe a little less for San Antonio because he has a house there.

Faede wrote:I find it a bit naive to think that any free agent is going to Milwaukee without bird rights and overspending. That is not an nba reality right now. Sorry, but its the cold hard truth.

We have a pile of cap space in the works and the system is working against us as you pretty much have to use it or it gets squeezed but player raises.

Redick is precisely what this team needs. Über efficient, hard working, a positive leader and a genuine floor spacing threat. Many, many people on this board advocated getting him. If not for the hawks fiasco we may have had a shot at a sanders redick moute smith Jennings lineup next year, which I would have enjoyed. Now, we will see.

Either way the overreaction of negativity toward this trade seems a bit excessive, don't you think?

Yes, more than a few seem to be battling trichotillomania.

Gustavo Ayon and Ish Smith are not assets. Filler is more like it.

step3profit wrote:

Ill-yasova wrote:

Nebula1 wrote:Look, the Bucks are going for the Playoffs.. might as well sit back and support it since ain't nothing changing until the summer. Here's hoping they get the 7 or better and steal a first round series. I definitely think Redick helps them pull that off.

Hate giving up Harris, but let's roll.

This response could have literally been copied and pasted from last year's Monta trade thread. People complained about that trade, others said "Hey well at least we're going to the playoffs, we may as well support the team." A year later we're in the same situation and we're supposed to suck it up and cheer for carbon copy of last year? I admire your optimism Nebs, but I just can't get with that line of thinking.

Let's take a moment to appreciate that there is a difference between getting Monta vs. getting Redick, and there is a difference between giving Tobias and giving Bogut. To say these trades are anything close to a carbon copy is doing a disservice to both Redick and Bogut.

Tobias might become a very good player, and I hope he does, and I'm sad it won't be here. But let's not lump in Monta for Bogut with Redick for Harris. Jesus.

There is some truth here; but maybe not in what seems to be insinuated. A summer league 20 year old All-star may or may not turn out to be better than a solid shooting 28 year old career back-up. We shall see. However, anyone in their right mind has to conclude that Monta has had a more successful career than Bogut and it is not even debatable. Moreover, as a late second round draft choice Ellis has exceeded expectations while Bogut who was selected #1 during the same draft has not met the expectations of a #1 draft choice. To ranks an underachiever over an over achiever who has out performed him is a twisted condemnation. Now some may like Bogut's game better which is a fair proclamation. But to suggest that he is better is not supported by fact, no matter how you slice it. This is the sort of attitude that leads to worst possible scenarios which includes NOT making the play-offs and loosing Ellis, Jennings and Redick after this year.

Why would anyone of them want to stay when they can be handsomely paid on more competitive teams with more appreciative and supportive fans. Then, what does this team have? Hmmmmmm...Looks like a team whose strongest commitments are for players who play the same position; Esran, Sanders(who is actually a PF) and Henson; All have their strengths none are very special. This does not seem like a winning equation.

Steve Kyler ‏@stevekylerNBA
New Magic guard Beno Udrih is thrilled to be out of Milwaukee... really looking forward to the chance to play in Orlando...

No surprise here. Lol.

BigDoggyStyle wrote:Steve Kyler ‏@stevekylerNBA
New Magic guard Beno Udrih is thrilled to be out of Milwaukee... really looking forward to the chance to play in Orlando...

No surprise here. Lol.

I think a lot of guys who leave Milwaukee will be thrilled after playing with Jennings so long, and now with Monta too.

BigDoggyStyle wrote:Steve Kyler ‏@stevekylerNBA
New Magic guard Beno Udrih is thrilled to be out of Milwaukee... really looking forward to the chance to play in Orlando...

No surprise here. Lol.

This cuts both ways. For Beno's entire career he's been the leagues best garbage team PG. That guy simply wants to play 35 mpg, take 17 shots and doesn't seem to really care about wins and losses.