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Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good player"

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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#221 » by worthlessBucks » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:45 am

Newz wrote:PG: ?
SG: Redick
SF: Moute
PF - Ersan - Henson
C - Sanders

I think those guys all fit together pretty well. It'd be nice to see Jennings break out or for us to just get a flat out better player at the PG spot. But if we let Ellis go and don't bring in any more ridiculously bad players like him or Gooden... I could see our team being a lot of fun to watch and possibly a team that wins 50+ if we add a couple of decent pieces to that puzzle.

The Bucks aren't assembling a puzzle though. They have no idea what they're trying to do, they just throw crap together and hope for lightning in a bottle. The 'plan' will be entirely different once again come the draft and FA. Every team certainly has deviations to strategy and their blueprint, but the Bucks don't have a foundation and they abandon whatever principles they put forth. Mindless turnover all the time in the 8th seed chase. Draft Henson. Resign Ersan. Chase Josh Smith at the deadline. Chase Smith in FA.
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#222 » by MikeIsGood » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:45 am

Newz wrote:
MikeIsGood wrote:
Newz wrote:While I love me some Tobes I don't really see this as a terrible deal so long as:

1. We let Monta go in the offseason.
2. We retain Redick AND the deal that we get him on is reasonable.


If we can honestly get him on a reasonable deal, I still think the trade is stupid but I would be less irate. I just don't foresee that happening. We'll see.


I think Redick on a reasonable deal is always going to be a more valuable player than Tobes.


We'll see. I won't discount it, but I still don't like the trade at all.

Redick is actually a pretty damn good ball player, IMO.


Totally agree. I like him quite a bit. I think he's really solid. Starter (though not a great starter) material.

That being said I think some team is going to either pay him more than he is worth and steal him away... or we will get in a bidding war and pay him way more than he is worth.


Nail, head.

I also agree with the poster who says he wont let Jennings go. I also think we will end up keeping him for more than he is worth.


Always been my POV. I thought we'd trade the farm for Redick and Smith, see both of them walk, and then ridiculously overpay for Jennings. Given that, I guess I should be happy we haven't **** ourselves that badly. Yet.
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#223 » by paul » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:46 am

europa wrote:
Max Green wrote:
europa wrote:I was critical of Hammond long before he traded Bogut, who was my favorite player on the team at the time. I don't want to speak for Paul but I know he was too. So your statement doesn't really mesh with the facts with some of us at least.


You were critical of Hammond here and there (As was everyone else even his most loyal supporters), but you still supported and defended him up until last years trade deadline.


Sorry but that's incorrect. I was very critical of Hammond after Year 3. Bogut was still on the roster at the time. Your attempt to generalize my position is inaccurate. The fact is there are people here who liked Player A or B but were still critical of Hammond. The idea that people now hate Hammond because he traded Bogut (which is the player I assume you're primarily referring to with this point) simply isn't true.


Speak for yourself europa I was waxing his knob for getting Maggette and giving Gooden that contract, I freaking loved those guys. YAY TEAM [please use more appropriate word].
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#224 » by M-C-G » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:49 am

Well if nothing else, I am excited to see the minutes when Redick and Jennings get to play together...Should finally give us a chance to see what Jennings could be without poop playing the 2. If he still stinks, then at least we know not to resign him, if he looks good, it gives us a good idea of how much we would be willing to resign him for.

I'll definitely miss Tobes though, but at least we've mixed some things up. I couldn't stand watching the team as is any longer.
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#225 » by paul » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:49 am

The great irony in all this is that we were all hoping Hammond would use the Monta 'asset' to bring in something to avoid the Bogut trade being a complete bust, instead now we're all desperately hoping that Monta walks (thus making it a complete bust) so that the next guy he's brought in using an asset who plays exactly the same position as Monta but does so far better can actually move into the starting role next season (if we can resign him).

:thumbsup:
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#226 » by El Duderino » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:51 am

paulpressey25 wrote:
El Duderino wrote:I've seen others say this and while i wanted Monta gone as much as anyone else, how much value did he really have around the league?


Below was Monta's value back on March 16, 2012. Not my fault Hammond let the value rot away for another year. As I said the other day, Hammond bought a $150 Best Buy Gift Certificate Card for $100 cash. But then he spent all year staring at the HDTV's, couldn't make up his mind which one to purchase and in the process the gift card expired.

Nets Offered Lopez To Bucks For Ellis
Mar 16, 2012 3:41 PM EDT

Following Milwaukee's acquisition of Monta Ellis, the Nets offered a trade of Brook Lopez, according to Ric Bucher while on KNBR Radio.

The Bucks turned down that trade and decided to keep Ellis.

Ellis is known to be a player Dwight Howard wants to play with.

Via Ric Bucher/ESPN


I have my doubts about whether the Nets really would have traded Lopez for Ellis given that was all based on their desire to first have Howard lined up. Even if that trade went down though, we'd have had to pay Lopez the max and that would have prevented Sanders from ever being able to emerge as he has.

As for Howard being buddies with Monta, what exactly does that do to help the Bucks?

Other GM's in the league can see that he's pure garbage more often than an asset from night to night. So if i'm another GM, unless acquiring Monta can guarantee me landing Howard, why the hell would i want to trade for a highly inefficient chucking defensive liability who makes 11 million dollars?
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#227 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:51 am

paul wrote:
Have you got the phaser set to 'flop' on Monta at the moment? I thought it was flips week, I miss flip, flip's cool.


i feel my assessments on monta have been spot on at every point ive shared them. that includes today. think in terms of bogut. once he was good.... i assessed him that way. now he sucks playing the setup role for andres biedrins. guys go down hill deal with it.
the difference between you and me is that i dont get the magazine pictures of my fav players so stuck together with jizz that i cant turn the page when theres no turn on left.
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#228 » by humanrefutation » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:52 am

sneakerdust wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
No offense, but I'm not really in the mood to delve into the psychological and social construct surrounding racism on this board at this time. Simply stated, your perspective is valid in a vacuum, but devoid of social and historical context. And, I can personally guarantee that a lot of people would find that Ayon comment offensive, and I'm one of them.

But simply stated, I'm going to leave it there. I don't doubt the purity of your intent, but I think the impact matters just as much as the intent.



No problem. That argument is weak though as you just admitted these things called "racism" are not by definition but simply made up psychological and social constructs that can serve anyone's self interest.

Like giving professors who work 4 hours a weak an excuse to lay 100k + in loans on the rest of us.

Humor>>>>>>>fake indignation.

We have enough hate and real problems in the world like the wrath of the swag brothers to give into that crap.

Have the last word at your leisure I promise not to respond 8-)


No, I never said they were "made up" to "serve anyone's self interest." I inferred that racism has psychological and social impacts, which is indubitable and the whole reason why every rational person agrees racism is wrong. I also said your perspective lacks historical and social context, which is pretty important because you cannot understand racism without understanding the historical and social contexts which perpetuate it.

Until you've faced racism, as I've had too many times in my life, you can't quite understand the perilous impact that even a seemingly innocent joke can have. Which is why I constantly remind people that there is often a difference between intent and impact.
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#229 » by paul » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:55 am

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
paul wrote:
Have you got the phaser set to 'flop' on Monta at the moment? I thought it was flips week, I miss flip, flip's cool.


i feel my assessments on monta have been spot on at every point ive shared them. that includes today. think in terms of bogut. once he was good.... i assessed him that way. now he sucks playing the setup role for andres biedrins. guys go down hill deal with it.
the difference between you and me is that i dont get the magazine pictures of my fav players so stuck together with jizz that i cant turn the page when theres no turn on left.


I resent that. I have an all weather computer monitor, magazines are sooo 1996.

But you are too clever for me my cleverishly clever friend.
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#230 » by humanrefutation » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:00 am

El Duderino wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
3. We could have signed JJ Redick in the offseason. This trade gives us no real advantage in that department.

4. We still are stuck with Monta Ellis and did not sell on our other expendable asset, the expiring contract of Sam Dalembert.

Is there anything on that list that is debatable?


1. On point three. I don't agree that this trade gives no advantage to resigning Redick. If he finds himself liking it here in Milwaukee, i do think it increases the chances that he'll stay so long as the contract he's offered is acceptable to him. For quite a few NBA players, they've ended up liking the city only after first having to play here vs the negative opinion they had before being here.

Granted though, some certainly can argue as to whether resigning Redick would be a good thing for the Bucks.

2. As for Ellis and Dalambert, i have serious doubts as to whether Ellis had any positive value around the league given his overall crappy play. Why exactly should any team have valued Monta?

Now maybe Dalambert had some minor value as a rental, but if Josh Smith couldn't even bring Atlanta much of anything good as a rental, why should Dalambert have?


You're certainly right that trading for Redick now gives him a chance to experience Milwaukee and maybe learn to appreciate it. On the other hand, it could also compel him to hate Milwaukee and our team, which is why it's a wash in my view. Further, I believe money ultimately talks. Redick is going to sign with the team that pays him the most, and I think playing in Milwaukee for 30 games will have a minimal impact on his decision.

As for Ellis and Dalembert - I think we could have moved Dalembert for a 2nd rounder, which I think is still preferable to keeping him. I don't cite Ellis to imply that there was a huge market for him. I'm just saying that people aren't happy he's still here, and if the rumors about the Bucks being unwilling to part with him in the Josh Smith trade is true, then the board has the right to be apoplectic about that.
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#231 » by ReddWing » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:04 am

I think I'll like Redick's attitude. Don't got to worry about him pouting and missing free throws.
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#232 » by El Duderino » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:11 am

europa wrote:
ampd wrote:
There is no chance we are letting Jennings walk. We tried to extend Monta. Jennings could probably take a dump at mid court and we'd still pay him 10 million dollars


He's topped 30 points in the last two games. He's a Buck for life now.


Given i wasn't as high on Tobias as many here, him being included in the trade and then maybe blowing up for the Magic isn't my biggest worry. Neither is resigning Redick, even though he's already 29.

What i do worry a lot about though is if Redick were to play well over the rest of the year and thus did sign an extension, i do fear that it would increase the odds of Hammond then also paying to keep Jennings long term.

What happens at PG going forward is so vital IMO to the future of the Bucks given how the frontcourt could very well be in good shape, especially if Henson develops well. Redick would also give us a very solid starting SG.

If a good PG isn't running the team though, it likely keeps the Bucks stuck in that 6-8th seed at best area going forward and i'm not confident at all in Jennings ability to be that high quality PG. So i'm quite a bit more concerned about how Hammond deals with Brandon in the offseason than how he deals with Redick.
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#233 » by ttime1 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:21 am

Ha! Redick was the sixth man on Orlando! We are not even talking about a team who imagined themselves being in the play-off and he could not even crack the starting line-up. There is a reason why a veteran player doesn't start for a bottom feeding team. Anyone who thinks that he will take Ellis' spot or is better than Ellis or Jennings is dreaming a nightmare that they believe is a wet dream. Redick is a shorter version of Dunleavy with a better handle. Nothing else and nothing more.

Moreover, all of you who are mutilating Ellis don't realize or appreciate that he is the best play-maker on the team (nearly had a triple-double a few games back) and given the proper coaching and teammates, he has the ability to be one of the better ones in the league. This team has one of the worst if not worst sf-pf starting combination in the league. The SFs are specialist who are not special at all and the starting PF is not powerful. Hence- who can Ellis consistently be a play-maker for? Granted, he makes too many bad decisions; but if he had better talent to play with, he may not feel as pressed. Redick does not solve this problem.

For those who still think that the Ellis-Bogut trade was awful need only explain how Bogut was outplayed last night by a washed up Jermaine O'Neal. We are talking about 17 points and 12 rebounds. I'm sorry, there are high-school centers who can do better against and aged and partially disabled O'neal. So, Ellis was and is the better option.

The big question is if they can pull it together and like many of you, I have my doubts. We just differ on our assessment of the cause.
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#234 » by blazza18 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:23 am

paul wrote:The great irony in all this is that we were all hoping Hammond would use the Monta 'asset' to bring in something to avoid the Bogut trade being a complete bust, instead now we're all desperately hoping that Monta walks (thus making it a complete bust) so that the next guy he's brought in using an asset who plays exactly the same position as Monta but does so far better can actually move into the starting role next season (if we can resign him).

:thumbsup:


I think this is where you say.

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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#235 » by Ayt » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:24 am

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
kebzach wrote:For those of you who feel that Harris wasn't ever given a real chance...wasn't he gifted the starting forward job for the entire training camp this season? Wasn't that job his for the taking? And then he failed to take it?

If that's not a real chance, what is?


harris got a shot. not much of one but he got one. the main argument from the guys for him is whats happened with larry sanders. of course whats happened with sanders is really rare.... but that wont stop them from acting like its the norm or anything


No. The main argument is that he was far from a failure in his "shot" and he should have been kept and gotten more of a look.

As far as his shot, Skiles wanted him to defend, rebound, hustle, and float around the perimeter while never having any plays run for him. That is moronic for a guy as young as Tobes with his skillset. Beyond that, if he made one mistake on defense, Skiles would yank him, even if the game was only a couple minutes old. All of that together isn't much of a shot. It is a great way to destroy the confidence of a young player and waste the NBA level talents he does have. Skiles added to that by not only removing him from the starting lineup, but basically removing him from the rotation altogether.

That is brilliant treatment for an offensively gifted player who is the 11th youngest player in the league. Skiles set him up to fail, but he actually didn't even do as poorly as you'd expect, all things considered.

A real shot would have included him being on the court as a backup being used properly offensively by running some post plays with him.
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#236 » by blazza18 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:26 am

ttime1 wrote:For those who still think that the Ellis-Bogut trade was awful need only explain how Bogut was outplayed last night by a washed up Jermaine O'Neal. We are talking about 17 points and 12 rebounds. I'm sorry, there are high-school centers who can do better against and aged and partially disabled O'neal. So, Ellis was and is the better option.


I'm sorry. What ?
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#237 » by paul » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:27 am

Ayt wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
kebzach wrote:For those of you who feel that Harris wasn't ever given a real chance...wasn't he gifted the starting forward job for the entire training camp this season? Wasn't that job his for the taking? And then he failed to take it?

If that's not a real chance, what is?


harris got a shot. not much of one but he got one. the main argument from the guys for him is whats happened with larry sanders. of course whats happened with sanders is really rare.... but that wont stop them from acting like its the norm or anything


No. The main argument is that he was far from a failure in his "shot" and he should have been kept and gotten more of a look.

As far as his shot, Skiles wanted him to defend, rebound, hustle, and float around the perimeter while never having any plays run for him. That is moronic for a guy as young as Tobes with his skillset. Beyond that, if he made one mistake on defense, Skiles would yank him, even if the game was only a couple minutes old. All of that together isn't much of a shot. It is a great way to destroy the confidence of a young player and waste the NBA level talents he does have. Skiles added to that by not only removing him from the starting lineup, but basically removing him from the rotation altogether.

That is brilliant treatment for an offensively gifted player who is the 11th youngest player in the league. Skiles set him up to fail, but he actually didn't even do as poorly as you'd expect, all things considered.


Set him up to fail, then punished him unmercifully when he almost did.

The following emoticon is my favorite part of the board today other than a couple of GOS's posts in this thread :thumbsup:
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#238 » by sneakerdust » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:27 am

humanrefutation wrote:
sneakerdust wrote:

No problem. That argument is weak though as you just admitted these things called "racism" are not by definition but simply made up psychological and social constructs that can serve anyone's self interest.

Like giving professors who work 4 hours a weak an excuse to lay 100k + in loans on the rest of us.

Humor>>>>>>>fake indignation.

We have enough hate and real problems in the world like the wrath of the swag brothers to give into that crap.

Have the last word at your leisure I promise not to respond 8-)


I lied. :D

No, I never said they were "made up" to "serve anyone's self interest." I inferred that racism has psychological and social impacts, which is indubitable and the whole reason why every rational person agrees racism is wrong. I also said your perspective lacks historical and social context, which is pretty important because you cannot understand racism without understanding the historical and social contexts which perpetuate it.

Racism is pretty easy to understand. I gave the definition before. All those jokes are not racist by definition. Thus they have no impact as you wish to ascribe to them.

Until you've faced racism, as I've had too many times in my life, you can't quite understand the perilous impact that even a seemingly innocent joke can have. Which is why I constantly remind people that there is often a difference between intent and impact.


The reason I lied is that the rest of your tone of the alternative argument not understanding or assuming you have a higher moral ground because you feel impacted by the behavior of others has nothing to do with the argument. It is a technique to stifle debate which I find insidious - yet understandable because the technique is ingrained by our education system from a young age.

We are both Bucks fans. If we lived in a community together for 200+ years we would end up acting and looking pretty much the same compared to everyone else. People would offend us and make fun of us mercilessly - for obvious reasons. Some of it logical some of it not. Some of it funny, some of it not. The historical and psychological scars would be immense (in fact they already are). and there would be lots of future implications from those scars. But unless it was because people assumed we acted with way we did because of the actual composition of our purple and green skin, none of it is racist.

I respect your argument and know it derives from both personal and academic rigor/experience. Also the confusion of behavior and geographical/economic/cultural behavior is great because those regional stereotypes are often attributed to skin color because of high segregation rates and the lack of logical thought needed to separate out that confusion. But as the different social/cultural mores of Continental Europeans v. Latin American Europeans, Caribbean blacks vs. American blacks, or between various Native Tribes illustrate - those idiosyncrasies that make us interesting as individuals and groups are not based on race. And the humor/hate/behavior based on them is not racist.

Holy sh* am I a wind bag. Just tear this apart without the part that stifles debate and i will bow out, no I'm going to pass out.

I feel like Jack Handy made a baby with Epi. :( :o :D
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#239 » by paul » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:29 am

blazza18 wrote:
ttime1 wrote:For those who still think that the Ellis-Bogut trade was awful need only explain how Bogut was outplayed last night by a washed up Jermaine O'Neal. We are talking about 17 points and 12 rebounds. I'm sorry, there are high-school centers who can do better against and aged and partially disabled O'neal. So, Ellis was and is the better option.


I'm sorry. What ?



:o







BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHA.


Ha.
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Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good pla 

Post#240 » by El Duderino » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:32 am

humanrefutation wrote:
El Duderino wrote:
1. On point three. I don't agree that this trade gives no advantage to resigning Redick. If he finds himself liking it here in Milwaukee, i do think it increases the chances that he'll stay so long as the contract he's offered is acceptable to him. For quite a few NBA players, they've ended up liking the city only after first having to play here vs the negative opinion they had before being here.

Granted though, some certainly can argue as to whether resigning Redick would be a good thing for the Bucks.

2. As for Ellis and Dalambert, i have serious doubts as to whether Ellis had any positive value around the league given his overall crappy play. Why exactly should any team have valued Monta?

Now maybe Dalambert had some minor value as a rental, but if Josh Smith couldn't even bring Atlanta much of anything good as a rental, why should Dalambert have?


You're certainly right that trading for Redick now gives him a chance to experience Milwaukee and maybe learn to appreciate it. On the other hand, it could also compel him to hate Milwaukee and our team, which is why it's a wash in my view. Further, I believe money ultimately talks. Redick is going to sign with the team that pays him the most, and I think playing in Milwaukee for 30 games will have a minimal impact on his decision.

As for Ellis and Dalembert - I think we could have moved Dalembert for a 2nd rounder, which I think is still preferable to keeping him. I don't cite Ellis to imply that there was a huge market for him. I'm just saying that people aren't happy he's still here, and if the rumors about the Bucks being unwilling to part with him in the Josh Smith trade is true, then the board has the right to be apoplectic about that.


Obviously money is going to be a big factor in where Redick ends up signing in the offseason, but i just disagree on the premise of him having 30 games here is a wash on improving the chances he'd resign. On average, more players end of resigning with the team they last played with and with a city/franchise like the Bucks with such an overall negative image among NBA players who mainly just pop in and out during the winter months, it often takes players first living here to realize it's not the nightmare they envisioned.

On Dalembert, we'd have to had to also take on an equal expiring salary in a trade which can be tricky to find a match. Unless we were getting a 2nd rounder from a terrible team picking in the high 30's, it's hard for me to care at all about just keeping Dalembert. As for Ellis, i just really question that he was a sticking point in landing Smith. Why the hell would Atlanta want Monta? He not only sucks, the Hawks are trying to get way under the cap and they'd have to fear to some degree that Monta wouldn't opt-out and then they'd be stuck paying him 11 million next year.

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