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Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a "a very, very good player"

Moderators: MickeyDavis, paulpressey25

Post#256 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:14 am by sneakerdust

humanrefutation wrote:
sneakerdust wrote:The reason I lied is that the rest of your tone of the alternative argument not understanding or assuming you have a higher moral ground because you feel impacted by the behavior of others has nothing to do with the argument. It is a technique to stifle debate which I find insidious - yet understandable because the technique is ingrained by our education system from a young age.


You're right, it does stifle debate. But that's because unless you're a member of a targeted group, claiming that you can disagree about whether your statement was racist towards that group makes as much sense as my decision to debate with an oncologist about her cancer diagnosis. It's not your field of experience or expertise. The whole idea of "walking a mile in my shoes" comes into mind here.

That would allow anyone to claim they were offended by anything and that it is "racist" and they can tell the "offender" what to do. The seeds of authoritarianism. I prefer thicker skin, humor, economic interaction, and just plain getting along and ostracizing aholes as a better, more sustainable solution.

Racism is pretty easy to understand. I gave the definition before. All those jokes are not racist by definition. Thus they have no impact as you wish to ascribe to them.


And yet, at least three or four people vocally stated their objection to those statements. But, I guess they had no impact, huh?

But as the different social/cultural mores of Continental Europeans v. Latin American Europeans, Caribbean blacks vs. American blacks, or between various Native Tribes illustrate - those idiosyncrasies that make us interesting as individuals and groups are not based on race. And the humor/hate/behavior based on them is not racist.


Absolutely agree that the differences which define our respective cultures are worth celebrating. But, it's certainly racist when attitudes towards those groups are based on hate. And it still becomes racist when you attempt to push someone into a box and identify them solely based on their stereotypes regarding their cultural heritage. So, when someone calls me a camel jockey because I'm of Middle Eastern descent, or says that someone's who's Black must love eating watermelon and fried chicken, it's racist not because riding camels or enjoying chicken is a bad thing, but because they're ascribing a stereotype about my ethnic identity to my personal identity. They're looking at me as a member of a certain ethnic or racial group first and foremost, and judging me based upon that stereotype. And that can have tremendous implications in social dynamics.


That's cool. I just point out ethnicity is not race. Segregation leads to this confusion. That's the crux of 84.5634% of this juxtaposition of views. Race is genetic based. Ethnicity is behavior based. You cannot ascribe the illogical nature of racism to different views people have on behavior. Good debate. Gnight!
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Post#257 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:18 am by ttime1

paul wrote:
ttime1 wrote:I guess there is a reason why some folks look in the mirror and can't tell the difference. Probably because their crap come out of both. But that's an entirely different story. What is relevant is that Ellis was drafted deep into the second round of the same draft that Bogut was drafted and has had way more success in the league. Bogut can't even stay healthy enough to tie his own shoes and when he is he can't tie an aged Jermaine O'neal's. Box scoring is the short of it; the long of it is why wasn't he in the game when O'neal was doing his damage? Why? Because he can not for the life of him stay healthy. If he could and could play at his best, he would still be a Buck. But he has not demonstrated that he can. At his absolute best, he is a Bill Walton clone, and that is a stretch.


He wasn't in the game with O'neal because O'neal's a backup. Bogut played against the starter Gortat because, wait for it, he's a starter. Carry on.


Yes he is and to his credit he did post over ten boards and had a few block shots. He finished with less than 10 points and shot below .500. Most #1 picks in the league play regardless of rather or not the opposing team's back-ups or starts are playing simply because they are good enough and healthy enough to do so. Those top draft choices who don't, i,e K.Brown are considered BUST. Although I think Bogut is a lot better than Brown, his classification can't be too far from being a bust. Which by definition makes Bogut a Buster. BUt hey, to each is own. I actually would like to see him consistently play at his best and ACTUALLY live up to his potential. But what I would like to see and what the reality is are two different things.

I simply get tired of some folks bagging on Ellis yet, want to give Bogut the Buster a pass. Ellis was drafted late in the second round, yet has been a borderline all-star for much of his career. While Bogut was the #1 pick during that same year and had 1/2 of a season of borderline all-star play. Yes, Ellis has his flaws, but he has climbed higher than what most expected to more consistently play at a higher level than Bogut ever has.
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Post#258 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:26 am by ttime1

sneakerdust wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
sneakerdust wrote:The reason I lied is that the rest of your tone of the alternative argument not understanding or assuming you have a higher moral ground because you feel impacted by the behavior of others has nothing to do with the argument. It is a technique to stifle debate which I find insidious - yet understandable because the technique is ingrained by our education system from a young age.


You're right, it does stifle debate. But that's because unless you're a member of a targeted group, claiming that you can disagree about whether your statement was racist towards that group makes as much sense as my decision to debate with an oncologist about her cancer diagnosis. It's not your field of experience or expertise. The whole idea of "walking a mile in my shoes" comes into mind here.

Racism is pretty easy to understand. I gave the definition before. All those jokes are not racist by definition. Thus they have no impact as you wish to ascribe to them.


And yet, at least three or four people vocally stated their objection to those statements. But, I guess they had no impact, huh?

But as the different social/cultural mores of Continental Europeans v. Latin American Europeans, Caribbean blacks vs. American blacks, or between various Native Tribes illustrate - those idiosyncrasies that make us interesting as individuals and groups are not based on race. And the humor/hate/behavior based on them is not racist.


Absolutely agree that the differences which define our respective cultures are worth celebrating. But, it's certainly racist when attitudes towards those groups are based on hate. And it still becomes racist when you attempt to push someone into a box and identify them solely based on their stereotypes regarding their cultural heritage. So, when someone calls me a camel jockey because I'm of Middle Eastern descent, or says that someone's who's Black must love eating watermelon and fried chicken, it's racist not because riding camels or enjoying chicken is a bad thing, but because they're ascribing a stereotype about my ethnic identity to my personal identity. They're looking at me as a member of a certain ethnic or racial group first and foremost, and judging me based upon that stereotype. And that can have tremendous implications in social dynamics.


That's cool. I just point out ethnicity is not race. Segregation leads to this confusion. That's the crux of 84.5634% of this juxtaposition of views. Race is genetic based. Ethnicity is behavior based. You cannot ascribe the illogical nature of racism to different views people have on behavior. Good debate. Gnight!


Although I disagree that ethnicity and race are separate when they are most often used and considered one in the same, I really appreciate the level of intelligence that has been displayed during this conversation. It is something that Milwaukee needs more of.
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Post#259 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:29 am by Baddy Chuck

Houston got a recent top 5 pick for their Tobias Harris, we got JJ Redick. That is why we are still the Milwaukee Bucks.
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Post#260 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:33 am by ampd

ttime1 wrote:Although I disagree that ethnicity and race are separate when they are most often used and considered one in the same, I really appreciate the level of intelligence that has been displayed during this conversation. It is something that Milwaukee needs more of.


All in service of a taco stand joke about a mexican guy. Consider me skeptical.
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Post#261 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:50 am by El Duderino

Baddy Chuck wrote:Houston got a recent top 5 pick for their Tobias Harris, we got JJ Redick. That is why we are still the Milwaukee Bucks.


Harris very well may end up becoming a player, but had we offered him for Robinson, the Kings hang up.

Obviously though Patterson was playing 25 minutes per game for other teams to evaluate while Harris has been glued to the bench.

I haven't been a fan of Hammond for awhile now, but we'll find out over the next year or two if all three of Skiles, Boylan, and now Hammond were wrong about Tobias and if so, to what degree.

When running a small market franchise like the Bucks and a decision is made to trade a 20 year old recent first round pick, management better be right.
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Post#262 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:02 am by humanrefutation

sneakerdust wrote:Race is genetic based. Ethnicity is behavior based.


Well, there is a growing consensus that race is a social construct that has no consistently proven genetic brightline. It's simply a manner in which people are classified. That classification may be based on skin color, but relying on what people are perceived to be isn't a reliable arbiter of their genetic makeup. When anthropologists and other scientists compare the genetic makeups of people of different races, they find that the difference is so minimal that it's hard to find any scientific method of consistently distinguishing these groups. In essence, it's more about the way we group one another and talk about it, rather than having meaningful scientific distinction. Even many of those who argue there are some distinct genetic differences reinforce the notion that it's largely socially based, simply because of the changing definition of race throughout the last 300 years.

Ethnicity, on the other hand, is a multifaceted identity that's not simply based on behavior, but also appearance, national origin, language, clothing, food, religion, history, or other traditions.

But, as ttime1 mentioned, race and ethnicity are often treated as one in the same when it comes to stereotyping and discrimination, simply because people judge others based on how they appear, not on what's inside their heart.

Anyway, I'm out on this topic, too. It's been a distraction from the Bucks talk, though, which has some value. 8-)
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Post#263 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:06 am by Turk Nowitzki

What is happening in this thread?

*slowly backs away*
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Post#264 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:08 am by humanrefutation

Turk Nowitzki wrote:What is happening in this thread?

*slowly backs away*


Uh oh, someone is talking about racism, RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY! :lol:

Actually, the convo looks like it's over and it was pretty respectful anyway. You don't need to hide.
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Post#265 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:10 am by Turk Nowitzki

humanrefutation wrote:
Turk Nowitzki wrote:What is happening in this thread?

*slowly backs away*


Uh oh, someone is talking about racism, RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY! :lol:

Actually, the convo looks like it's over and it was pretty respectful anyway. You don't need to hide.

Sorry, I wasn't looking to participate in a sprawling conversation about the specifics of racism in a thread about J.J. Redick.
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Post#266 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:14 am by Baddy Chuck

El Duderino wrote:Harris very well may end up becoming a player, but had we offered him for Robinson, the Kings hang up.

Nah, that's bull. It was a straight salary dump. They got 3 pieces that the have no care for at all. Problem is, year after year we go for guys like Redick instead of the Thomas Robinson's.
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Post#267 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:15 am by humanrefutation

Turk Nowitzki wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
Turk Nowitzki wrote:What is happening in this thread?

*slowly backs away*


Uh oh, someone is talking about racism, RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY! :lol:

Actually, the convo looks like it's over and it was pretty respectful anyway. You don't need to hide.

Sorry, I wasn't looking to participate in a sprawling conversation about the specifics of racism in a thread about J.J. Redick.


And no one said you had to participate in that conversation. Everyone else was able to participate in the Redick conversation without acting aghast that there was a separate discussion going on.
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Post#268 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:17 am by ampd

humanrefutation wrote:
sneakerdust wrote:Race is genetic based. Ethnicity is behavior based.


Well, there is a growing consensus that race is a social construct


The original statement was an unfunny joke about a Mexican guy pushing a taco cart. The guy making the joke knew it would be interpreted as racist and cause offense, and made it anyway. The legitimacy of race as a biological classification is irrelevant. Its also unclear how anyone making that joke could expect it to be interpreted as somehow celebrating diversity or something analogous.

Making statements that you know will be interpreted as racist and cause offense in people who read them may or may not make you a racist but it does make you a douche. Trying to paint yourself as a counter culture hero bringing down the system by making a taco joke in poor taste about a Mexican NBA player in this forum is equally douchey.

But whatever, I don't really care. I'd rather remain united in our collective misery vis a vis our favorite basketball team.
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Post#269 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:20 am by Turk Nowitzki

humanrefutation wrote:And no one said you had to participate in that conversation. Everyone else was able to participate in the Redick conversation without acting aghast that there was a separate discussion going on.

Ooooooook then, carry on, as you were.
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Post#270 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:20 am by humanrefutation

ampd wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
sneakerdust wrote:Race is genetic based. Ethnicity is behavior based.


Well, there is a growing consensus that race is a social construct


The original statement was an unfunny joke about a Mexican guy pushing a taco cart. The guy making the joke knew it would be interpreted as racist and cause offense, and made it anyway. The legitimacy of race as a biological classification is irrelevant. Its also unclear how anyone making that joke could expect it to be interpreted as somehow celebrating diversity or something analogous.

Making statements that you know will be interpreted as racist and cause offense in people who read them may or may not make you a racist but it does make you a douche. Trying to paint yourself as a counter culture hero bringing down the system by making a taco joke in poor taste about a Mexican NBA player in this forum is equally douchey.


Um, I'm not sure if you're trying to argue with me, because I definitely agree with you. That's what precipitated the whole discussion.
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Post#271 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:24 am by humanrefutation

MikeIsGood wrote:
paul wrote:4. Whoops, I already did 4
5. I wonder what the wife's making me for lunch, seriously could eat the crutch out of a low flying duck
6. Eighth seeds aren't given out in the offseason, get a grip guys


This board is about to get incredibly fun (as if today wasn't good enough). Should we include fun as part of the deal?

Lamb + Tobes + Udrih out
Redick + Ish + Ayon + RGM board fun in[/quote]

Well, now that fun is a factor, this might be a win.
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Post#272 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:26 am by mattg

Baddy Chuck wrote:Houston got a recent top 5 pick for their Tobias Harris, we got JJ Redick. That is why we are still the Milwaukee Bucks.

To be fair, getting a top 5 pick and using it to select a Thomas Robinson type player is a Milwaukee bucks move. It's the type of pick that would let down this entire board, after yearning for the tank so much, to end up with Robinson would be just as depressing as the current situation.
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Post#273 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:27 am by humanrefutation

mattg wrote:
Baddy Chuck wrote:Houston got a recent top 5 pick for their Tobias Harris, we got JJ Redick. That is why we are still the Milwaukee Bucks.

To be fair, getting a top 5 pick and using it to select a Thomas Robinson type player is a Milwaukee bucks move. It's the type of pick that would let down this entire board, after yearning for the tank so much, to end up with Robinson would be just as depressing as the current situation.


You don't think Thomas Robinson has big time potential?
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Post#274 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:27 am by ampd

humanrefutation wrote:I'm not sure if you're trying to argue with me, because I definitely agree with you. That's what precipitated the whole discussion.


Not arguing with you. I actually think this is a situation where someone was just not respectful enough of the context with which their comments would be interpreted as opposed to a case of actual bigotry.
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Post#275 Re: Simmons & Lowe weigh in. Redick a &qu
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:36 am by humanrefutation

ampd wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:I'm not sure if you're trying to argue with me, because I definitely agree with you. That's what precipitated the whole discussion.


Not arguing with you. I actually think this is a situation where someone was just not respectful enough of the context with which their comments would be interpreted as opposed to a case of actual bigotry.


I agree. I don't think their was malicious intent, which is why I wasn't particularly angry or hurt by what was said. I was more disappointed, tbh.
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