I'm looking for a little info on your team

[emunney]

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear by now that Knight's not going to figure out the PnR, which is really the only thing you have to be able to do to be a full time NBA PG. Rather have him ISOing mismatches and playing off the ball, spotting up and attacking closeouts.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Did Philly and Boston do that though? Seems to me they held onto their "Sanders'" in Rondo, Green and Young. Instead of selling short just to dump players they are holding on for maximum value, or quite possibly just keeping them throughout the rebuild. If anything a move like the Jrue Holiday deal proves that they were willing to give up young, semi-established talent at the peak of their value, like most of us are advocating with Knight and Henson because we don't believe they have a lot more to give than they've already shown. The pot calling the kettle black comes into play because "what's the rush" with Sanders?

rondo, green, and young are all on the block..... no way in hell they would be resigned for big dollars either. they are ALL actively looking to be traded. im advocating trading sanders now for whatever value he still retains..... unlike you I think his value IS AT AN ALLTIME HIGH RIGHT NOW. ive stated over and over and over again that I think he could become a completely immoveable albatross and lockerrom cancer and distraction.

so until rondo quits appearing in every trade rumor on the internet, gets extended.... and starts getting into bar fights and and getting drug suspensions.... hes a bad comparison.

and finally your using jrue holiday as proof we should keep him??????? he was a good kid, an allstar, freshly signed to a brand new high dollar deal and philly sold him. boom... his value drops. meanwhile... youre using him as an example to kep sanders all the while his value keeps plummeting like a stone. unbelievable

we need to just stop discussing it. I don't want to talk about larry sanders anymore. you all know where I stand. just please don't bring him up in some ridiculous somparison that suggests im a hypocrite because I still want to play guys like henson and knight on their rookie deals before I hold out full judgement. whatever correlation there is between those 2 and sanders I have no fckin idea.

[jazzfan1971]

Some guys do calm witb age. Zacb randolpb seemed like a huge headcase before going to memphis. Fwiw i think that sanders is on the block i also think he is one of the best defenders in the league.

[Baddy Chuck]

and finally your using jrue holiday as proof we should keep him??????? he was a good kid, an allstar, freshly signed to a brand new high dollar deal and philly sold him. boom... his value drops. meanwhile... youre using him as an example to kep sanders all the while his value keeps plummeting like a stone. unbelievable

I'm using him as a "sell high" comparison for Henson and Knight, not Sanders, because the idea that Sanders' value is at an all time high is absolutely ridiculous.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Some guys do calm witb age. Zacb randolpb seemed like a huge headcase before going to memphis. Fwiw i think that sanders is on the block i also think he is one of the best defenders in the league.

name one that did on their original team

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

and finally your using jrue holiday as proof we should keep him??????? he was a good kid, an allstar, freshly signed to a brand new high dollar deal and philly sold him. boom... his value drops. meanwhile... youre using him as an example to kep sanders all the while his value keeps plummeting like a stone. unbelievable

I'm using him as a "sell high" comparison for Henson and Knight, not Sanders, because the idea that Sanders' value is at an all time high is absolutely ridiculous.

who sells high on their own players during their rookie scale deals and comes out the bandit?
give me an example. cv maybe? is Henson our cv? is tj ford the return you expect from selling high?

and hardly ridiculous as it relates to sanders. watch him get caught smoking pot again... do you think he stopped? do you think hes going to quit arguing every call and stay on the floor? boning up with teammates that cross him? put basketball first? act in a way he never has?

if it was ridiculous then he wouldn't have lost any value. teams wouldn't be phased in trade talks if he was "certain to rebound" to the level of those amazing 6 months of play he had 2 seasons ago during his contract drive.

sanders is a moron and he got paid. stop talking in absolutes when you discuss his future.

[Baddy Chuck]

stop talking in absolutes when you discuss his future.

Welp, if this isn't a perfect example of pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is.

[emunney]

Some guys do calm witb age. Zacb randolpb seemed like a huge headcase before going to memphis. Fwiw i think that sanders is on the block i also think he is one of the best defenders in the league.

name one that did on their original team

Name one that stayed on his original team and didn't.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

stop talking in absolutes when you discuss his future.

Welp, if this isn't a perfect example of pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is.

I think his value will continue to decline. Ive never said its "ridiculous" if somebody suggests it might improve. just ridulous to suggest that improvement is inevitiable. so keep trying harder with your little pot kettle thingy.

and again since you don't like to acknowledge it.... if we were attempting an allout push for home court this year id advocate keeping him despite my reservations. you know how forgiving with veteran players I tend to be when im in my optimist mode. there is multiple reasons why most teams move troubled expensive veteran players at the beginning of a rebuild. as ive already mentioned.....those are the reasons you need to paint me with if youre going to continue.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Some guys do calm witb age. Zacb randolpb seemed like a huge headcase before going to memphis. Fwiw i think that sanders is on the block i also think he is one of the best defenders in the league.

name one that did on their original team

Name one that stayed on his original team and didn't.

the parameter has to be that they flamed out so bad that a second team didn't even bother to give them a chance?

like a joe alexander or tarpley or washburn or something? maybe I don't even understand where youre going with this? even a moron like potzie got a 2nd team.... the list youre asking me to describe would be small, weird, and irrelevant to my point unless im not understanding your question well.

[breakchains]

Sanders had about as bad a season as you can have. It's hard to imagine his value being much lower than it is now, unless you think he caught lightning in a bottle in 2013, and that he's actually not a good player at all. And that because he had such a tumultuous year off the court, that teams may not realize his actual value on the court is actually lower than it is currently perceived to be.

That's literally the only reason you should be advocating for a Sanders trade right now.

And even if that's what you think, you don't do it for a salary dump. The Bucks don't need clean books right now, and are in fact in pretty solid cap shape, and project to look really clean in the next couple years. So even if you think the far-fetched scenario I laid out above is true, you still don't make a move to just shed his salary because you can't be sure that you're right on that. So it makes more sense to wait and see if your analysis on him is wrong, rather than just dump him with no tangible benefit.

I think almost any realistic scenario in which we'd trade Sanders at this moment would end up in us getting ripped off when looked back upon. The move should be to keep him and see what he's got. If he's what you thought he was the last time he played a full season, then you have an elite rim protector who doesn't need a lot of touches on offense, but can run the break and put away lobs. That is a very valuable player who many teams would love to have. Even if you don't like him, it makes more sense to let him build up some value and then move him for an asset than to trade him now for pennies on the dollar.

[emunney]

name one that did on their original team

Name one that stayed on his original team and didn't.

the parameter has to be that they flamed out so bad that a second team didn't even bother to give them a chance?

like a joe alexander or tarpley or washburn or something? maybe I don't even understand where youre going with this? even a moron like potzie got a 2nd team.... the list youre asking me to describe would be small, weird, and irrelevant to my point unless im not understanding your question well.

You set up the parameter of them staying on their original team, not me. All I was pointing out is how limiting that is -- there are few enough guys who cause zero problems and don't stay on the same team, and you're asking for guys who are major headaches and stay on one team long enough to emotionally mature. Of course it's going to be a short list whether they ultimately mature or not.

[RRyder823]

Some guys do calm witb age. Zacb randolpb seemed like a huge headcase before going to memphis. Fwiw i think that sanders is on the block i also think he is one of the best defenders in the league.

name one that did on their original team

"I'll take Kobe Bryant for 200 Alex."

Forced both Shaq and Phil out of town, (Granted Phil came back for another run), after almost coming with blows to Shaq in the locker room had his troubles with the law, had his infamous "refuse to shoot game" in the playoffs and yet is now regarded as a winner and a player that people should never count out due to his desire.

I know I shouldn't use Kobe as an example but you only said name ONE. Kobe was a much bigger head case for a time then Sanders could ever hope to be. Much greater talent also oh well. I am a fan of the Mamba but I'll freely admit he was as much of a head case for a stretch as anyone we've had on our roster in sometime. Sanders isn't even close. Perceptions and attitudes with players change rather quickly when winning follows and Sanders imo can help this team win being a elite rim protecter behind Jabari. Contract aside he's a great fit on this team with Giannis and Jabari manning the forward spots

Edit: Sorry also forgot to add he (Kobe) tried forcing his way out of LA in a trade to the Bulls with the only reason the trade didn't go through was because the Deng wasn't apart of the package offered

[RRyder823]

and finally your using jrue holiday as proof we should keep him??????? he was a good kid, an allstar, freshly signed to a brand new high dollar deal and philly sold him. boom... his value drops. meanwhile... youre using him as an example to kep sanders all the while his value keeps plummeting like a stone. unbelievable

I'm using him as a "sell high" comparison for Henson and Knight, not Sanders, because the idea that Sanders' value is at an all time high is absolutely ridiculous.

who sells high on their own players during their rookie scale deals and comes out the bandit?
give me an example. cv maybe? is Henson our cv? is tj ford the return you expect from selling high?

and hardly ridiculous as it relates to sanders. watch him get caught smoking pot again... do you think he stopped? do you think hes going to quit arguing every call and stay on the floor? boning up with teammates that cross him? put basketball first? act in a way he never has?

if it was ridiculous then he wouldn't have lost any value. teams wouldn't be phased in trade talks if he was "certain to rebound" to the level of those amazing 6 months of play he had 2 seasons ago during his contract drive.

sanders is a moron and he got paid. stop talking in absolutes when you discuss his future.

I mean this with all due respect but if we could manage to get a healthy TJ Ford level/type of player for just Henson I'd take that deal and run the other way hoping not to get popped for armed robbery

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Name one that stayed on his original team and didn't.

the parameter has to be that they flamed out so bad that a second team didn't even bother to give them a chance?

like a joe alexander or tarpley or washburn or something? maybe I don't even understand where youre going with this? even a moron like potzie got a 2nd team.... the list youre asking me to describe would be small, weird, and irrelevant to my point unless im not understanding your question well.

You set up the parameter of them staying on their original team, not me. All I was pointing out is how limiting that is -- there are few enough guys who cause zero problems and don't stay on the same team, and you're asking for guys who are major headaches and stay on one team long enough to emotionally mature. Of course it's going to be a short list whether they ultimately mature or not.

the talented act out no self control moron types need to get cut down and bounce around.....the end of the road needs to be staring them in the face if they dont get it together. then sometimes, less likely than likely..... in a new environment they figure it out. maybe they grow up. maybe they go to a team of superstar vets that keep them in control. maybe they go to rehab and dont mock having to do it. maybe money and longevity motivates them again. moving on is the model for a troubled player.... its not limiting. its the normal procedure.
the rodmans, the artests, the wallaces, the randolphs, the beasleys, the birdmans, the list is long..... if they figure it out its not on the team where they got paid, and stay paid, as the senior veteran franchise player. the idea were considering it is mindboggling? and im kinda shocked youre really contesting how rarely, if ever, it works out that way?

[AussieBuck]

Sanders has less to figure out than Knight.

[emunney]

I'm contesting it because it's an untested hypothesis. You have a handful of cases of guys who have been branded trouble-makers, and left, and then have either 'turned it around' (not sure what that means in the case of a guy like Rodman, who was never not a really good-to-great basketball player and also never not a **** head) or their troubles with teammates and commitment have accumulated to the point where they can't be effective players anymore. What you don't have are the cases of guys where they stayed and we got to see what happened.

Tarpley would have been an interesting one had he not been banned from the league. Washburn and Alexander flamed out on the court (though Washburn's off-court troubles are certainly well-documented).

There are a number of scenarios in which I'd be fine trading Sanders, probably a lot more than most of the other people you're arguing over Sanders with, but I'm not fine with trading him for just whatever, because that might mean some other player we'd owe just as much money but who doesn't present the upside. Sanders is boom or bust and that's not the worst kind of guy for us to have right now. If he starts really causing problems we can always send his ass home. It's not like we need the salary slot.

[RRyder823]

the parameter has to be that they flamed out so bad that a second team didn't even bother to give them a chance?

like a joe alexander or tarpley or washburn or something? maybe I don't even understand where youre going with this? even a moron like potzie got a 2nd team.... the list youre asking me to describe would be small, weird, and irrelevant to my point unless im not understanding your question well.

You set up the parameter of them staying on their original team, not me. All I was pointing out is how limiting that is -- there are few enough guys who cause zero problems and don't stay on the same team, and you're asking for guys who are major headaches and stay on one team long enough to emotionally mature. Of course it's going to be a short list whether they ultimately mature or not.

the talented act out no self control moron types need to get cut down and bounce around.....the end of the road needs to be staring them in the face if they dont get it together. then sometimes, less likely than likely..... in a new environment they figure it out. maybe they grow up. maybe they go to a team of superstar vets that keep them in control. maybe they go to rehab and dont mock having to do it. maybe money and longevity motivates them again. moving on is the model for a troubled player.... its not limiting. its the normal procedure.
the rodmans, the artests, the wallaces, the randolphs, the beasleys, the birdmans, the list is long..... if they figure it out its not on the team where they got paid, and stay paid, as the senior veteran franchise player. the idea were considering it is mindboggling? and im kinda shocked youre really contesting this?

I get what your saying and don't disagree flat out but throwing Sanders in the same category as Rodman and Artest is a little bit of a stretch. Also Sheed never really changed his attitude but rather ended up bouncing around because he was still a sought after player despite his "attitude" problems till he found his fit with the Pistions.

I agree that a change of scenery can do wonders for a troubled player but a few off the court problems doesn't throw him in that boat for me yet. If they continue into next year then sure i'll be on board with him being shipped out but the league is also scattered with young players throughout it's history doing stupid things early in their careers. They're quickly forgoton about if quickly corrected. And one "troubled" season isn't condeming to me. Sanders seems like the type of guy if he wants to keep his nose clean he will. I'm all about 2nd chance's

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Sanders has less to figure out than Knight.

are you comparing them now? or at the beginning of their contract years? or at the same age?

to compare them this way seems kind of random to me. but i'll play along....

ersan has less to figure out than Henson. did I do it right?

[AussieBuck]

Sanders has less to figure out than Knight.

are you comparing them now? or at the beginning of their contract years? or at the same age?

to compare them this way seems kind of random to me. but i'll play along....

ersan has less to figure out than Henson. did I do it right?

I was mostly seeing if you'd put me on ignore seeing as you responded to everyone else.
Knight won't figure out that he's a bench scoring guard on this team, he's much closer to the guy who will only figure out his place in the world on team 2,3 or 4 than Larry.