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Championship in 2018, what's the big plan?

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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#41 » by Bernman » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:52 am

DutchManDanFan wrote:Bernman, What you suggest is what most teams do for ages without any succes. Try to improve the team little by little and hope that with a good draft and smart trades it becomes a Championship team one day. I don´t buy that anymore. I can see a fun and 50+ win team. But a real contender? Nope.

I think it's far better to set a target year, make a big plan and go for it. The target year should be 2018. Giannis 5th year, Jabari 4th year, Sanders in the last year of his contract. Mayo and/or Middleton are nice players to have at SG, but others can fit the bill as well. Backups at all the positions are already in place. They could be better, but I don´t think it matters that much. What will matter is an experienced floor general at PG.
If you want to succeed you aim for the top. So go after CP3.


a. San Antonio won championships almost exclusively thru the draft. Oklahoma City is more than a 50-win team. They are a legit championship contender who just hasn't won yet, due to still being young, and lack of timing/injuries in part. Only one team can win it all. It's a select group who has. And most of the others like the Heat, Lakers, etc. built thru fa or players steering their way to big markets. We can't build that way. Our primary plan has to be multiple high picks, a lot of picks, and make smart decisions with them.

b. I suggested some supplemental plans to try and aid the team in getting over the top. They were much more reliable. The Chris Paul plan isn't even worth talking about. There are players in the league who are virtually untradeable toward the top, and he's one of them. Your plan shouldn't be centered around him or it's going to lead to nowhere.
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#42 » by skones » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:57 am

LUKE23 wrote:I couldn't really care less about foul stats in the preseason. And if we are counting preseason stats, his scoring production stats were very good. He certainly isn't a defensive sieve moving from SF to SG; it's not like there is a massive difference in the wing positions in today's NBA anyway. Positions are far more interchangeable now than they were a few years ago.


Another definitive statement. Based on what exactly? As far as his scoring production is concerned? He's actually been very average during the season.
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#43 » by ampd » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:19 am

skones wrote:In no place did I say I was worried about him having a good season.


skones wrote:He's going to be a guy, with a good season, that is going to cost Milwaukee 7.5 to 9 million a season, and [goes on to elaborate about how that's bad]


ok.

About the 'don't sign guys until you have your core in place' thing, why couldn't Middleton be part of the 'core' if he had a legitimately 'good' season? Because he was drafted in the 2nd round? Only super duper stars are allowed to be part of the core now?

If Middleton had a Klay Thompson type season (17/3/2 on 55% TS 40% from 3) would that make him part of the core'? He was 12.1/3.5/2 (14.5/4/2.5 per 36) on 54% TS last season, is that really that massive of an improvement?
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#44 » by RRyder823 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:23 am

Heres my master dream plan. Pretty sure Klay Thompsons a RFA next year. If not let me know. Sign him to a max offer and hope GS botch's the paper work to match..... Stick with me its my dream.... The ping pong balls fall our way and we get Mudiay.... lock Middleton up to be our 6th man.... Get anything of value for Knight.... It all sounds so simple doesnt it lol

PG: Mudiay/Marshell/Wolters
SG: Thompson/Middleton/Inglis
SF: Giannis/Middleton/Inglis
PF: Parker/Henson
C: Sanders/Henson

Throw in a few of our 2nd rounders that we got commin up In there for depth and screw 2018 that team can compete by 2016 as long as Parker and Giannis are as good as we hope...... None of this will happen most likely but like I said its just a dream scenerio for me
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#45 » by PANDEMONEUM » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:03 am

Im all for a slow rebuild.
And doing it through the draft
Im 100% on board with Jabari Giannis Middleton
Draft top 5 in 2015
Top 10 in 2016
Lottery in 2017
If everyone keeps improving, thats 6 players we can hope to build a championship team with

I think knight, marshall, wolters, henson are all wildcards.
They could improve and be valuable pieces for us or valuable to others, and that could help with more picks or a piece in the future
Have to include inglis in that group
But we havent seen anything from him
And hes too young to make any decisions on

Larry's play will determine his value and/or importance

If we move pieces not a part of the plan
Gain more Draft picks, even 2nds
That increases our chance of finding a quality player(s)
Then
When we are ready for the playoffs and advancing into and past the 2nd round, we trade our deep bench youngs and future picks to get that all star piece that we need

Im all for slow and steady

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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#46 » by BallinBucks420 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:43 am

PANDEMONEUM wrote:Im all for a slow rebuild.
And doing it through the draft
Im 100% on board with Jabari Giannis Middleton
Draft top 5 in 2015
Top 10 in 2016
Lottery in 2017
If everyone keeps improving, thats 6 players we can hope to build a championship team with

I think knight, marshall, wolters, henson are all wildcards.
They could improve and be valuable pieces for us or valuable to others, and that could help with more picks or a piece in the future
Have to include inglis in that group
But we havent seen anything from him
And hes too young to make any decisions

Larry's play will determine his value and/or importance

If we move pieces not a part of the plan
Gain more Draft picks, even 2nds
That increases our chance of finding a quality player(s)
Then
When we are ready for the playoffs and advancing into and past the 2nd round, we trade our deep bench youngs and future picks to get that all star piece that we need

Im all for slow and steady

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i like that thinking but honestly im hoping by 2017 we can get into the playoffs even as an 8 seed as i think our young guys will need some experience and could use the playoffs to help evolve.. i know most people like the centers in this next class and would like to snag one if we do that i think sanders has to go.. theres not reallly a need for him then at his pay unless that center can play pf as well and shoot.. i think mudiay is the better option for this team but we'd prolly have to be top 3 to snag him..2016 have a lottery pick and hopefully can snag a solid starter or role player.. does any1 know how many 2nd rounders and whos teams there from in 2015
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#47 » by trwi7 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:49 am

RRyder823 wrote: Sign him to a max offer and hope GS botch's the paper work to match.


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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#48 » by blazza18 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:04 am

^^^ Klay will prove Summer wrong. He's a "max" guy no doubt about it.
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#49 » by Nebula1 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:41 pm

I'm hoping it starts with an Ersan package trade for a pick/prospect, then important 2015 draft, followed by more losing and another important 2016 draft. I think Milwaukee is basically the new Orlando Magic, but with a couple contracts it needs to dump.

The outlier move is a John Henson trade for an impact point guard.
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#50 » by DutchManDanFan » Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:43 pm

Bernman wrote:a. San Antonio won championships almost exclusively thru the draft. Oklahoma City is more than a 50-win team. They are a legit championship contender who just hasn't won yet, due to still being young, and lack of timing/injuries in part. Only one team can win it all. It's a select group who has. And most of the others like the Heat, Lakers, etc. built thru fa or players steering their way to big markets. We can't build that way. Our primary plan has to be multiple high picks, a lot of picks, and make smart decisions with them.

A lot of teams try to copy the Spurs. Being like the Spurs looks like a pipedream to me (as it is for most teams).
OKC and Cleveland (03-11) came close, but that's with Durant and LeBron. All time greats. And even that is not working.

Bernman wrote:b. I suggested some supplemental plans to try and aid the team in getting over the top. They were much more reliable. The Chris Paul plan isn't even worth talking about. There are players in the league who are virtually untradeable toward the top, and he's one of them. Your plan shouldn't be centered around him or it's going to lead to nowhere.


Boston (07-08) and Miami (11-13) had a plan and now Cleveland has. They brought some stars together, because they made them believe they could win a Championship. It all starts with a plan players can believe in. You need to have some pieces already and timing is crucial.
Boston had Rondo and Pierce and they recruited KG and Ray Allen exactly at the right time. It's the same with Miami and now with Cleveland.

The Bucks don't have the right pieces at the moment but they might have them in 2017 if Giannis and Jabari develop into 90% of what we are hoping for. And I think 2017 could be exactly the right year to go after Chris Paul:
The Clippers stay good but not great --> Believe in a ring with the Clippers fade away --> CP3 asks for a trade. Without his salary the Clippers can avoid luxury tax, so they will certainly think about it.
When a star asks for a trade, a lot of times it happens. And the star picks the location. Kevin Love was always going to Cleveland to play with LeBron and Irving.

So I don't think it's a pipedream te get CP3. Certainly not if Jason Kidd can make him believe he can win a ring with the Bucks because he's the single missing piece for succes.
Of course it's all about the development of Giannis and Jabari and the role of Sanders the next couple of years. If this is disappointing in any way, you'll stick with the ' normal' plan (plan C) and hope the 2015 and/or 2016 rookies will get you somewhere. And hope for succes in 2020 or later. But I don't have much faith in that and it takes far too long. So I want to focus on plan A first, with a backup plan to trade for another top 10 PG with at least 6 years of experience in 2017.

This plan means the Bucks need to have the right pieces and (expiring) salaries in February 2017 to make an offer the Clippers can't refuse. A top 5 pick in 2015 and a top 10 pick in 2016 can help if they show potential. So plan C goes along with my plan A.
But if it comes to trades an (re)signings I want to make sure it fits plan A. That's why I would concider resigning Knight for 10 or 12 mil per year, but only for 2 years!

If you don't have a plan like this and live year by year (plan C) you will miss the opportunity when it arives. And then you stay in the ' wait and hope' mode for years.
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#51 » by DutchManDanFan » Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:58 pm

When I finished my post I saw this: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... ing-To-Win :D
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#52 » by Newz » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:12 pm

Plan:

* Hope Parker is great, not just good.
* Hope Giannis turns into a legit player.
* Hope Middleton becomes an elite role player.
* Hope Sanders can be not crazy and an elite defender
* Hope none of that happens too quickly so we can add another big time talent or two via the draft.
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#53 » by LUKE23 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:14 pm

I really didn't want to root for losses from day one again, but we need one more impact guy. We get an impact guy out of this draft and I think we are set in terms of the roster. From there, it will just take a few years of development and smart financial decisions.

Trade Ersan/Knight for sure, put Mayo and Pachulia out there as well. Get the cap as healthy as possible as fast as possible. Play the young guys huge minutes. See what happens.
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#54 » by Nebula1 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:17 pm

LUKE23 wrote:Trade Ersan/Knight for sure, put Mayo and Pachulia out there as well. Get the cap as healthy as possible as fast as possible. Play the young guys huge minutes. See what happens.



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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#55 » by LUKE23 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:28 pm

skones wrote:Another definitive statement. Based on what exactly? As far as his scoring production is concerned? He's actually been very average during the season.


Huh? He's averaging 18.4 ppg per 36 and is shooting 45% from 3. Why do you keep making stuff up with regards to his play? It's weird.
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#56 » by Ron Swanson » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:35 pm

Klay Thompson a max player? No....just....no :banghead:
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#57 » by Ron Swanson » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:53 pm

A slow rebuild would be nice for asset accumulation, but with Jabari, Larry, and some other pieces that we have (Middleton, Mayo, Marshall), I don't think it's very feasible. You want those guys to play at an elite level sooner rather than later. Project players like Giannis, Inglis, and Wolters can and probably will take time to develop, but a lot of guys on our roster are going to add wins because their development curve is less steep. With our current talent, you need to be thinking playoffs by 2016-17.

The only move I think needs to be made this year is dealing Ersan and clearing his contract off the books. Then, it's all about seeing what you have in some of these guys. Is Knight a long term piece? Is JOB an NBA player? Will Wolters and Giannis develop a 3-pt shot? Can Marshall be a starting PG? These are the questions we need answered and only through experimenting with different lineups and PT distribution is it possible to figure it out.

Next year? Entirely depends on how Jabari, Giannis, and Larry perform. Those are the key guys right now. They'll determine what pick we have (top 5, 10?). Take another high upside guy in the draft regardless of where we are picking.

I'd hold off on free agency until Zaza, Mayo, and Ersan's contracts are all off the books. Re-sign our own guys to reasonable deals if they show they can be long term peices (Middleton, Marshall?). Hell no to giving the Gordon Haywards and Klay Thompsons of the world max deals. We should have a plan for having enough cap space for two max deals in 2017-18 until we absolutely know what we have in Giannis and Parker.
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#58 » by Nowak008 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:54 pm

I think the chances of us winning the title in 4 years are pretty much zero. Veteran teams win championships. Even if Parker and Giannis become stars, they will only be 23-24 years old. OKC had Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Serge and that still wasn't good enough. Lebron didn't win until he was 27.

I just hope that in 3 years from now we will have a team that can get to the second round and make some noise.
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#59 » by skones » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:16 pm

LUKE23 wrote:
skones wrote:Another definitive statement. Based on what exactly? As far as his scoring production is concerned? He's actually been very average during the season.


Huh? He's averaging 18.4 ppg per 36 and is shooting 45% from 3. Why do you keep making stuff up with regards to his play? It's weird.


Because by all accounts a 54% TS is very average. It's not making anything up. If you want to say he's been shooting the three well, sure I agree. But let's not act like his overall scoring has been "very good." It's a stretch. Pretty ironic though that you accuse me of "making stuff up" when you keep making definitive statements about his defense at the shooting guard position without any sort of sample size.
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Re: Championship in 2018, what's the big plan? 

Post#60 » by skones » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:31 pm

ampd wrote:
ok.

About the 'don't sign guys until you have your core in place' thing, why couldn't Middleton be part of the 'core' if he had a legitimately 'good' season? Because he was drafted in the 2nd round? Only super duper stars are allowed to be part of the core now?

If Middleton had a Klay Thompson type season (17/3/2 on 55% TS 40% from 3) would that make him part of the core'? He was 12.1/3.5/2 (14.5/4/2.5 per 36) on 54% TS last season, is that really that massive of an improvement?


I'm not sure if you're a very selective reader or what, but to help you out, I've bolded parts in the post that are key to the entire argument.

skones wrote:
He's going to be a guy, with a good season, that is going to cost Milwaukee 7.5 to 9 million a season, and that's not something I'm willing to lock myself into. There are a lot of guys in the NBA who can hit the three ball, and when it comes to replacing him in that role, it can be done at a much lower cost. Guys who are signed in that 6.5-9 million dollar range aren't tradeable in today's league for that exact reason. In order to deserve that type of deal, he would have to demonstrate himself as a DEFINITE long term solution at the shooting guard position, and to be honest, I think he's going to be a liability defensively in that role.

That's not a flattering list, and the idea here is to maintain as much flexibility as you possibly can, so when the time comes and you know what you actually have in Giannis and Parker, you can adjust accordingly. Signing Khris Middleton to a 4 year deal worth 30-36 million dollars isn't going to help you in that regard. Like I said, his free agency comes at a bad time with regards to where this team stands developmentally. One year later and you might have a different ball game, but that's just not the reality here.


At the end of the day, committing to Middleton, in my mind is committing to a third banana before you have a second banana. I explicitly stated elsewhere that the key here is Giannis and what he really shows this season in regards to becoming that second option, and I have my doubts as to whether that happens THIS season. The idea here is to become a CHAMPIONSHIP team, not to lock in a role player to significant amounts of money because he's young and productive.

As far as the leap you're talking about, it IS a substantial leap. He scored 12 points per game last season in 30 minutes and to score 5 more points per game without any dip in efficiency IS a substantial leap. When I say, "good season," I mean 15 points per game, while shooting good percentages from behind the three point line. He has to demonstrate A LOT more in order to be deemed a "core" piece, otherwise he's a shooter and not much else. It's not like he's getting other guys easy buckets or getting to the line. His defensive performance is also a factor here, and I've made my concerns known in this thread as well. His performance there could make all of the difference in him being a guy worth keeping around, and a guy who can essentially be replaced at a much lower cost.

What'd Middleton's upside? Arron Afflalo (obviously Middleton's been more productive at a younger age)? Does anyone think Afflalo is a core piece on a championship contender?

Feel free to keep taking MASSIVE leaps and putting words in my mouth with the "super duper stars" and the "because he was a 2nd round pick?!" comments though. It only makes you look defensive.

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