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PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings

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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#241 » by Newz » Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:46 pm

BobbyLight wrote:
Newz wrote:
I honestly don't think, if we are smart about it, that it will be that hard to acquire another "star" when the time is right. Yeah, we won't be getting LeBron or Durant. But I bet we could land a quality second tier stud if we really went out and looked for one here 3-4 years down the line.


This is how the Bucks got themselves to Eastern Conference elite, trading for Cassell and Thomas. They had 2 very good players they drafted (Allen and Big Dog) then rounded it out with a heady vet who's confidence was through the roof and a young player who had potential.

Of course then they did the whole Anthony Mason thing which tore everything down, but that's to your point of not doing something stupid.

This is why I've never understood the mentality that we HAVE to have another top 5 pick because we already have out Allen and Big Dog, we just need to make smart little moves here and there and if we do that, we can be contenders.

I admit that Jabari going down makes me want a higher pick much more badly than before he went down, but it just isn't going to happen. Kidd has this team playing balls out for 48 minutes a night and based on effort alone we're going to hover around .500 entire year.


Yeah, I completely agree.

Like I said earlier in the thread it's all about how Parker comes back from injury at this point. If he's still a legit player then we should be fine. If he comes back and is a shell of himself then we are in big trouble.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#242 » by Newz » Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:51 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:3. the longterm implications of skiles and kohl. players didn't want to be here whether we were successful or not. maybe im wrong about this, but if this team gains momentum pieces cn be added later. maybe now if we add a monta we get the dallas version instead of the Milwaukee version. the single biggest flaw of ftd that made it unsustainable was the environment. I honestly feel that was the same issue even with karl. kohl poisoned everything. decent moves became bad moves just because of who we were. no I think thats changed. now I think this team has upside just because the environment is so hot.


I agree our core is younger this time around and is more promising.

The quoted part is where I really disagree with you though:

1. How do you know that players won't eventually quit on Kidd? How do you know that Kidd won't hop to another job here in a few years? Yeah. I think Kidd will probably stick around given his relationship with Lasry. But that is far from a given... especially because it's Jason Kidd. That guy moved around a lot as a player and he moved after one year of coaching the Nets.

We also only have a very small sample size of him as the coach. Will these guys keep playing hard for him over time? Will the young guys still respond to him as they grow older, get paid, etc?

2. I will trust our owners to be different than Kohl when they prove to be different than him as owners. So far we have barely made any player personnel moves under them. We drafted the guy we should have drafted at 2 and we kept our roster mostly the same after that.

3. I will trust Hammond is different now than he was back then when he gives me a reason to believe it as well. I think the stuff like Maggette and Gooden was probably Kohl... but Hammond has to prove that it wasn't just him making those horrendous decisions.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#243 » by VooDoo7 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:12 pm

There's no doubt in my mind Hammond was retained because the owners/Kidd wanted a GM who would be a puppet for them...especially Kidd. He was already under contract, and other potential GMs most likely wouldn't be down with that.

Kidd and the owners (mostly Kidd) will make the personnel decisions, but Hammond will be the one working the phones so Kidd can focus on coaching. The recent comments from Lasry about all 4 of them being in on the decision-making process pretty much confirmed this.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#244 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:12 pm

Newz wrote:
BobbyLight wrote:
Newz wrote:
I honestly don't think, if we are smart about it, that it will be that hard to acquire another "star" when the time is right. Yeah, we won't be getting LeBron or Durant. But I bet we could land a quality second tier stud if we really went out and looked for one here 3-4 years down the line.


This is how the Bucks got themselves to Eastern Conference elite, trading for Cassell and Thomas. They had 2 very good players they drafted (Allen and Big Dog) then rounded it out with a heady vet who's confidence was through the roof and a young player who had potential.

Of course then they did the whole Anthony Mason thing which tore everything down, but that's to your point of not doing something stupid.

This is why I've never understood the mentality that we HAVE to have another top 5 pick because we already have out Allen and Big Dog, we just need to make smart little moves here and there and if we do that, we can be contenders.

I admit that Jabari going down makes me want a higher pick much more badly than before he went down, but it just isn't going to happen. Kidd has this team playing balls out for 48 minutes a night and based on effort alone we're going to hover around .500 entire year.


Yeah, I completely agree.

Like I said earlier in the thread it's all about how Parker comes back from injury at this point. If he's still a legit player then we should be fine. If he comes back and is a shell of himself then we are in big trouble.


yes.... but only in the sense of whether this core has the ceiling of conference elite or 50 game winner.

even with Jabari as a role player this core still has the ceiling we all would have settled for just a short time ago. and nobody says it has to stop there just because Jabari wasn't that final championship guy either.

we keep drafting... we keep trading.... we keep hunting more pieces. like you said and I agree... the key is not doing dumb stuff and keeping the environment and momentum in place. that doesn't have to be the draft only. at some point tearing teams down to stay in the draft can work against you just as much as for you. we tear this down this year and don't bounce back quickly there is a lot at stake.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#245 » by VooDoo7 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:14 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:even with Jabari as a role player this core still has the ceiling we all would have settled for just a short time ago.

Speak for yourself.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#246 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:16 pm

VooDoo7 wrote:There's no doubt in my mind Hammond was retained because the owners/Kidd wanted a GM who would be a puppet for them...especially Kidd.


simply not true. his reputation around the league is very good. other gms are well aware of what his intentions would have been and what shackles were in place. his drafting record, and the scrappy competitiveness of his teams is not lost on anybody.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#247 » by sidney lanier » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:26 pm

BobbyLight wrote:
This is how the Bucks got themselves to Eastern Conference elite, trading for Cassell and Thomas. They had 2 very good players they drafted (Allen and Big Dog) then rounded it out with a heady vet who's confidence was through the roof and a young player who had potential.

Of course then they did the whole Anthony Mason thing which tore everything down, but that's to your point of not doing something stupid.



I don't think Kidd will ever look at his team the way George Karl looked at his Bucks—as deficient in some area (no toughness, too soft, needing an Anthony Mason or Payton as a savior). Early Kidd looks to me to be a coach who builds from strength and works with strength instead of diagnosing weakness and looking for a quick fix to counteract the weakness.

When some success comes maybe Kidd will be more Karl-like and turn into a stand-back critic instead of a talent nurturer. But if these first few weeks are indicative, I expect him to remain the kind of coach whose instinct is to find a way to solve the puzzle of what he has rather than pull a Singletary and say he can't win with players like this.

I like that. I want a coach who looks at a Ray Allen and sees an all-time shooter and not a defensive softie. Or who looks at a Brandon Knight and sees skills that are assimilable into winning basketball instead of a guy who will never have Bob Cousy eyes.

The Kidd approach has already created a whole that's greater than the sum of its parts. When those parts include a more mature Giannis and a healthy Jabari, I think we'll be watching a contending team.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#248 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:26 pm

Newz wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:3. the longterm implications of skiles and kohl. players didn't want to be here whether we were successful or not. maybe im wrong about this, but if this team gains momentum pieces cn be added later. maybe now if we add a monta we get the dallas version instead of the Milwaukee version. the single biggest flaw of ftd that made it unsustainable was the environment. I honestly feel that was the same issue even with karl. kohl poisoned everything. decent moves became bad moves just because of who we were. no I think thats changed. now I think this team has upside just because the environment is so hot.


I agree our core is younger this time around and is more promising.

The quoted part is where I really disagree with you though:

1. How do you know that players won't eventually quit on Kidd? How do you know that Kidd won't hop to another job here in a few years? Yeah. I think Kidd will probably stick around given his relationship with Lasry. But that is far from a given... especially because it's Jason Kidd. That guy moved around a lot as a player and he moved after one year of coaching the Nets.

We also only have a very small sample size of him as the coach. Will these guys keep playing hard for him over time? Will the young guys still respond to him as they grow older, get paid, etc?

2. I will trust our owners to be different than Kohl when they prove to be different than him as owners. So far we have barely made any player personnel moves under them. We drafted the guy we should have drafted at 2 and we kept our roster mostly the same after that.

3. I will trust Hammond is different now than he was back then when he gives me a reason to believe it as well. I think the stuff like Maggette and Gooden was probably Kohl... but Hammond has to prove that it wasn't just him making those horrendous decisions.


whether the environment has changed, or whether it hasn't..... it certainly appears that it has. as much as guys are trying to convince me weve been down this road.... to me this feels different. the sheer speed of what weve accomplished with a roster so similar to last years is such a promising signal to me. I just feel it cant be ignored that the vibe... the juju.... is on a completely different plane.

so whether im right, or im wrong.....im choosing to believe its real. because in truth, if im wrong.... and nothing has changed... then were wasting our time and screwed either way.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#249 » by VooDoo7 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:28 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
VooDoo7 wrote:There's no doubt in my mind Hammond was retained because the owners/Kidd wanted a GM who would be a puppet for them...especially Kidd.


simply not true. his reputation around the league is very good. other gms are well aware of what his intentions would have been and what shackles were in place. his drafting record, and the scrappy competitiveness of his teams is not lost on anybody.
I highly doubt, when other GMs called Hammond about potential trades, he said "well, I wouldn't do it, but Herb is making me".

Sure, he's probably liked by other GMs. And we all know why.

And you really think he has more say in decisions over Kidd and the owners?
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#250 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:29 pm

sidney lanier wrote:
BobbyLight wrote:
This is how the Bucks got themselves to Eastern Conference elite, trading for Cassell and Thomas. They had 2 very good players they drafted (Allen and Big Dog) then rounded it out with a heady vet who's confidence was through the roof and a young player who had potential.

Of course then they did the whole Anthony Mason thing which tore everything down, but that's to your point of not doing something stupid.



I don't think Kidd will ever look at his team the way George Karl looked at his Bucks—as deficient in some area (no toughness, too soft, needing an Anthony Mason or Payton as a savior). Early Kidd looks to me to be a coach who builds from strength and works with strength instead of diagnosing weakness and looking for a quick fix to counteract the weakness.

When some success comes maybe Kidd will be more Karl-like and turn into a stand-back critic instead of a talent nurturer. But if these first few weeks are indicative, I expect him to remain the kind of coach whose instinct is to find a way to solve the puzzle of what he has rather than pull a Singletary and say he can't win with players like this.

I like that. I want a coach who looks at a Ray Allen and sees an all-time shooter and not a defensive softie. Or who looks at a Brandon Knight and sees skills that are assimilable into winning basketball instead of a guy who will never have Bob Cousy eyes.

The Kidd approach has already created a whole that's greater than the sum of its parts. When those parts include a more mature Giannis and a healthy Jabari, I think we'll be watching a contending team.


good post.... and fwiw I think skiles was the anti-kidd too. maybe even worse than karl.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#251 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

VooDoo7 wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
VooDoo7 wrote:There's no doubt in my mind Hammond was retained because the owners/Kidd wanted a GM who would be a puppet for them...especially Kidd.


simply not true. his reputation around the league is very good. other gms are well aware of what his intentions would have been and what shackles were in place. his drafting record, and the scrappy competitiveness of his teams is not lost on anybody.
I highly doubt, when other GMs called Hammond about potential trades, he said "well, I wouldn't do it, but Herb is making me".

Sure, he's probably liked by other GMs. And we all know why.


he took stacks of trades to kohl and was rebuffed. all our previous gms have and the league is well aware of it. im shocked youre shocked by that information.

I do believe kidd has a lot of power in the organization. I just don't believe Hammond is a figurehead. I think the new owners trust THEM.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#252 » by VooDoo7 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:38 pm

And even if Hammond was given a "win-now" mandate, he did a horrible job at it. I'm shocked that you're giving him a complete pass on his ineptitude over the past how many years.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#253 » by BobbyLight » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:38 pm

sidney lanier wrote:
BobbyLight wrote:
This is how the Bucks got themselves to Eastern Conference elite, trading for Cassell and Thomas. They had 2 very good players they drafted (Allen and Big Dog) then rounded it out with a heady vet who's confidence was through the roof and a young player who had potential.

Of course then they did the whole Anthony Mason thing which tore everything down, but that's to your point of not doing something stupid.



I don't think Kidd will ever look at his team the way George Karl looked at his Bucks—as deficient in some area (no toughness, too soft, needing an Anthony Mason or Payton as a savior). Early Kidd looks to me to be a coach who builds from strength and works with strength instead of diagnosing weakness and looking for a quick fix to counteract the weakness.

When some success comes maybe Kidd will be more Karl-like and turn into a stand-back critic instead of a talent nurturer. But if these first few weeks are indicative, I expect him to remain the kind of coach whose instinct is to find a way to solve the puzzle of what he has rather than pull a Singletary and say he can't win with players like this.

I like that. I want a coach who looks at a Ray Allen and sees an all-time shooter and not a defensive softie. Or who looks at a Brandon Knight and sees skills that are assimilable into winning basketball instead of a guy who will never have Bob Cousy eyes.

The Kidd approach has already created a whole that's greater than the sum of its parts. When those parts include a more mature Giannis and a healthy Jabari, I think we'll be watching a contending team.


Great post and great observation. I hadn't thought along these lines because I was just happy with what Kidd was doing, but I agree with you 100% on your assessment. And that it might be a better way to do things vs. constantly railing on players for what they don't do. Just get them to be the best at what they do do.

Yes, I said do do.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#254 » by paulpressey25 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:53 pm

For a decade, Bobby Knight said Steve Yoder was the most underrated coach in America. I'm sure fellow GM's feel the same about John Hammond.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#255 » by emunney » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:15 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
Newz wrote:
BobbyLight wrote:
This is how the Bucks got themselves to Eastern Conference elite, trading for Cassell and Thomas. They had 2 very good players they drafted (Allen and Big Dog) then rounded it out with a heady vet who's confidence was through the roof and a young player who had potential.

Of course then they did the whole Anthony Mason thing which tore everything down, but that's to your point of not doing something stupid.

This is why I've never understood the mentality that we HAVE to have another top 5 pick because we already have out Allen and Big Dog, we just need to make smart little moves here and there and if we do that, we can be contenders.

I admit that Jabari going down makes me want a higher pick much more badly than before he went down, but it just isn't going to happen. Kidd has this team playing balls out for 48 minutes a night and based on effort alone we're going to hover around .500 entire year.


Yeah, I completely agree.

Like I said earlier in the thread it's all about how Parker comes back from injury at this point. If he's still a legit player then we should be fine. If he comes back and is a shell of himself then we are in big trouble.


yes.... but only in the sense of whether this core has the ceiling of conference elite or 50 game winner.

even with Jabari as a role player this core still has the ceiling we all would have settled for just a short time ago. and nobody says it has to stop there just because Jabari wasn't that final championship guy either.

we keep drafting... we keep trading.... we keep hunting more pieces. like you said and I agree... the key is not doing dumb stuff and keeping the environment and momentum in place. that doesn't have to be the draft only. at some point tearing teams down to stay in the draft can work against you just as much as for you. we tear this down this year and don't bounce back quickly there is a lot at stake.


I think you can keep the momentum rolling AND reorganize the roster. The keys are Kidd and his staff, Giannis, and making sure you're bringing in guys who will buy in. I also wouldn't get rid of all the vets. I like what Zaza and Dudley bring in terms of leadership, ball movement, and general awareness. They're good models for our young guys. I'd move them if I had to, but I don't think I could get the kind of value I'd want.

I'd be looking to move Larry and Knight for better fits, both on the court and in terms of salary flexibility. It's a foregone conclusion that Knight's going to get paid. If I can't find that fit, I'm not sweating it, but I feel confident that there's something we can do with both of those guys.

Ersan and Mayo have both played well this year, but I'd move either of them as I don't think they're as critical in the locker room and they're both fairly expensive for a rebuilding team.

I'd trade Middleton if could get some salary certainty out of it. That would most likely mean a first rounder, and it wouldn't have to come in 2015 for me to pull the trigger.

Bayless' value in trades is probably in getting salaries to balance at this point. He could also be fine as a co-placeholder if we traded Knight and didn't get a PG back.

I'd move Henson for a decent future asset or a young player with more skill out on the floor.

I don't think anybody else is really worth talking about in terms of trades. Obviously if somebody bangs on our door with an offer for Marshall, Wolters or JOB, you would have to listen. And Giannis and Jabari go nowhere.

I wouldn't do ALL of these things, but I would try to move some combination of these guys for either 3-4 guys who fit better with our long term plans or, ideally, one guy who is closer to the level of Jabari and Giannis as prospects. Larry and Knight would be where I'd focus my energy at this point.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#256 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:21 pm

VooDoo7 wrote:And even if Hammond was given a "win-now" mandate, he did a horrible job at it. I'm shocked that you're giving him a complete pass on his ineptitude over the past how many years.


but yet you want to breakdown the veteran core of scraps hes put together AGAIN, because they win too much with too much value at the deadline AGAIN..... so we can continue to put more pieces around the sensational guys he keeps adding in the draft :lol:
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#257 » by InsideOut » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:27 pm

BobbyLight wrote:
Newz wrote:
I honestly don't think, if we are smart about it, that it will be that hard to acquire another "star" when the time is right. Yeah, we won't be getting LeBron or Durant. But I bet we could land a quality second tier stud if we really went out and looked for one here 3-4 years down the line.


This is how the Bucks got themselves to Eastern Conference elite, trading for Cassell and Thomas. They had 2 very good players they drafted (Allen and Big Dog) then rounded it out with a heady vet who's confidence was through the roof and a young player who had potential.



You need to remember we had multiple all-star Vin Baker to trade that lead us to eventually getting Sam. We don't have that kind of trade asset on this team.

When Cleveland was going to finals with James they couldn't get anyone to sign with them as a FA. Even for a shot at a ring great FAs wouldn't come to Cleveland. Memphis is a piece away and FAs won't look at them. KG had the hardest time getting guys to come to Minny. What player wants to join the Thunder? They can't even get a vet looking for a shot at a ring to sign on (like Payton and Malone did in LA). The facts are a great FA isn't signing with Milwaukee. Best we can ever dream of is an average at best starter. But I guess there is a first time for everything.
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#258 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:32 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:For a decade, Bobby Knight said Steve Yoder was the most underrated coach in America. I'm sure fellow GM's feel the same about John Hammond.


I feel bad for you pp. youve stuck to that Hammond storyline so long.... in the months and years ahead its gonna be really tough to figure a way off of it with some pride intact.

just remember winning will shorten everybodys memories and im not the kind of guy to gloat :D
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#259 » by Treebeard » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:39 pm

I don't think you need to get rid of all of the vets, but each is individually expendable, if that makes sense.... The only clear keepers are Giannis & Jabari. I had Larry in that keeper group, but DocHoliday's description of a perfect Jason Kidd center has persuaded me that Larry could be moved for the right return
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Re: PG: All Powerful JOB downs Kings 

Post#260 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:40 pm

emunney wrote:
I wouldn't do ALL of these things, but I would try to move some combination of these guys for either 3-4 guys who fit better with our long term plans or, ideally, one guy who is closer to the level of Jabari and Giannis as prospects. Larry and Knight would be where I'd focus my energy at this point.


yes yes yes yes. youre entire post was so on point. we make the best moves available.... we don't try to just dump dump dump with no concern about stability.

im even on board with making knight available as long as its on the down low. if he has greater value then what we perceive to OUR plans, and what WE are willing to pay... then absolutely we look to move him for that value coming back. obviously you know how I feel about larry.... so I do agree that perhaps they are the 2 key pieces.

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