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The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174)

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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (Woj Bomb - It's Done! pg 153) 

Post#3461 » by EastSideBucksFan » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:09 pm

Tons of details on how Larry Sanders final months with Bucks went.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12354 ... depression


As he worked on a turkey sausage and cheese croissant with green tea, Sanders discussed more specifically than he had on the phone how he'd been spending his time since leaving the Bucks. Sanders described the weeks since Christmas as "a mental and spiritual training camp." He spent the first few weeks of January at his Milwaukee home among friends and family or in solitude, with a good deal of time devoted to meditation, often led by an instructor, and yoga.

[+] EnlargeLarry Sanders
Steve Dykes/USA TODAY SportsDespite a late start to playing basketball, Sanders developed into a dominant defender in the NBA.

"A lot of meditation," Sanders said. "It's been awesome. Meditation isn't about control. It's about surrendering, about letting your mind run free for a little bit. You just sit there, as a supervisor of your thoughts. You just observe them. It's a very strange spiritual experience, just allowing them to be there."

He declined to speak about his 4-year-old son, who is staying with family for the time being, and his mom, whom he says has "seen enough in her life." He said he occasionally ventured out to a friend's apartment building, where he uses the treadmill for light work.

"The one thing I want people to understand -- I've been doing a lot of work," Sanders said of the period following his leave from the Bucks. "I've been productive with my health and well-being and my spirituality. That's important to me. It goes beyond everything else."

Sanders explained that, in mid-December, it became clear that the work in question couldn't be accomplished within the framework of the NBA season. Around that time, he said he started to feel achy and physically unwell, and declined even more following the Dec. 23 home loss to Charlotte.

"The thing about me is that I'm an all-or-nothing kind of guy," Sanders said. "I can't go in and not be fully there. I want to give it my all, out of respect for the work. That's why people admire when they watch. They feel like a guy is working as hard as he can. So I just want people to know that I'm working as hard as I can now, too."

Following that loss, Kidd held a particularly tough practice in an effort to jump-start the team.

"Coach Kidd had it like we were in boot camp," Bucks forward Jared Dudley said. "He had us running, and he wanted to let everyone know how their role was defined."

According to Dudley, Sanders walked out of practice abruptly, before the sprints. Teammates had to pursue him to come back inside.

"It seemed weird at the time," Dudley said. "In this league, you're going to have players and coaches who disagree. That's the nature of the game. But I just thought that was odd."

A day or two later, Sanders left the team. Dudley reached out to Sanders by text, but didn't hear back, which he said was uncharacteristic.

"He got along with everyone," Dudley said. "You could tell he was artsy. But he was a great guy. He went out with the guys, for dinner and stuff. I would just say that things started to change at the very end."



Weeks before he admitted in video that he checked into a facility at Rogers Memorial Hospital, Sanders asked that the news of his enrollment there not be made public. He acknowledged that, in some respect, the request contradicted his belief that mental health issues needed to be destigmatized. But so long as he was pursuing advanced treatment, he didn't want the issue shrouded by any buzz generated by the public admittance of his status.

Sanders' stint at the mental health facility was brokered by several parties, including his representatives, the National Basketball Players Association and the Bucks. As a provision of his drug suspension, Sanders was required to receive drug treatment, but according to sources, his agents and the players' association pleaded with the league to have Sanders treated under the purview of mental health rather than substance abuse.

"That wasn't an easy fight," said a source close to the situation.

According to two sources close to the process, Sanders had stopped returning the Bucks' phone calls and, before his drug suspension kicked in, going to practice and meetings. The Bucks had worked with the league to offer Sanders multiple mental health referrals, but eventually became frustrated enough to consider more punitive measures, like a suspension from the team.

Ultimately, all parties came together for "a grand compromise," according to one of the sources. Sanders would receive independent treatment, meaning the facility had no relationship with either the NBA or the Bucks. It was an arrangement agreed to by all parties, but facilitated solely by Sanders' representatives and the players' association.

The NBA Player Association's general counsel, Gary Kohlman, declined to comment for this story.

"We view it as a shared responsibility, one that includes the player as well," NBA spokesman Michael Bass said. "We've worked hard to remove the stigma associated with mental health and the notion of 'getting help' for players, but that's an ongoing process and one that the league, teams and [players' association] are committed to."

Sources who have been active in arranging care for Sanders worry that the financial security that comes with the buyout of his contract with Milwaukee for "about 40 cents on the dollar" presents a real risk that he won't seek the treatment he, by his own admission, desperately needs and will fall into a routine of bad habits. One of these sources agrees with the characterization that surfaced in December reports that Sanders no longer wanted to play basketball.

During the first two weeks of his stay at the facility, Sanders sounded upbeat. He texted about Seattle Seahawks running back Marshawn Lynch's truculence with the media during the leadup to the Super Bowl, which he said gave him insight into his own temperament (though Sanders has always been far more communicative and friendly with the media). Sanders said he was continuing his regular meditation, and enjoying his sessions met professionals on staff at the facility.

But more than a week before his scheduled departure from the facility, Sanders checked out, much to the consternation of those who helped orchestrate his treatment program. The plan was to stay four weeks, but Sanders departed more than a week before his scheduled departure and flew to the Caribbean.

"He says he wants the best treatment, but then he rejects the treatment," said an involved source who was disappointed because he said Sanders' advocates went to great lengths to find him a treatment regimen that would allow him to address his issues.

Soon after he departed the facility, he instructed his agents to seek a buyout from the Bucks, against their advice. For his part, Sanders didn't have anything unkind to say about any parties involved in his treatment, including the Bucks. Those who have been working closely with him to arrange for care said that the team's management, after some initial resistance, had been responsive to Sanders' situation. At the time Sanders signed a four-year $44 million contract extension in August 2013, the Bucks agreed to extend Sanders mental health protections. This meant that should Sanders suffer from conditions that could be diagnosed as mental health-related, he'd be protected under the terms so long as he complied with a mental health treatment plan -- just as is the case contractually with the recovery from physical injury. In other words, he would have gotten paid even if he didn't play basketball.

Sources who have been active in arranging care for Sanders worry that the financial security that comes with the buyout of his contract with Milwaukee for "about 40 cents on the dollar" presents a real risk that he won't seek the treatment he, by his own admission, desperately needs and will fall into a routine of bad habits. One of these sources agrees with the characterization that surfaced in December reports that Sanders no longer wanted to play basketball.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (Woj Bomb - It's Done! pg 153) 

Post#3462 » by Turk Nowitzki » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:17 pm

Nothing in that piece surprises me. Best of luck to Larry in life or whatever but I'm ready to close the door and move on.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (Woj Bomb - It's Done! pg 153) 

Post#3463 » by StickeeFingaz » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:23 pm

After reading that article, I don't see this ending well for Larry. Rejecting treatment and leaving early...not a good start. Reminds me of an episode of Intervention.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3464 » by paulpressey25 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:34 pm

Great piece but a huge part of the story is in the couple sentences about Larry walking out of practice and going AWOL. They didn't cover that angle on things. Was Kidd too tough for Larry to deal with? The initial response would be, he thrived under Skiles so it shouldn't be an issue. But he didn't have $44 million guaranteed then.

Also very little on his family other than a few lines that make you wonder their role or lack of it here. I can recall three years ago he had a family entourage at games that was very supportive of him. Wondering where they are in this picture.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3465 » by EastSideBucksFan » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:39 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:Great piece but a huge part of the story is in the couple sentences about Larry walking out of practice and going AWOL. They didn't cover that angle on things. Was Kidd too tough for Larry to deal with? The initial response would be, he thrived under Skiles so it shouldn't be an issue. But he didn't have $44 million guaranteed then.

Also very little on his family other than a few lines that make you wonder their role or lack of it here. I can recall three years ago he had a family entourage at games that was very supportive of him. Wondering where they are in this picture.



Also wanted to bold out the part about the contract clauses. This is new information.

At the time Sanders signed a four-year $44 million contract extension in August 2013, the Bucks agreed to extend Sanders mental health protections. This meant that should Sanders suffer from conditions that could be diagnosed as mental health-related, he'd be protected under the terms so long as he complied with a mental health treatment plan -- just as is the case contractually with the recovery from physical injury. In other words, he would have gotten paid even if he didn't play basketball.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3466 » by paulpressey25 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:44 pm

^^i missed that one.

This Sanders thing was a mess from day one. Herb left us the parting gift of selling to great, great new owners. But at the end there, SOB was needed. That front office was a mess if they gave Larry $44 million guaranteed and mental health guarantees also. Obviously they knew Larry had big issues back then.

Oh, and Woelfel and the guy who posted that Larry got in a fight with Kidd at practice are confirmed here.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3467 » by JimmyTheKid » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:47 pm

EastSideBucksFan wrote:
At the time Sanders signed a four-year $44 million contract extension in August 2013, the Bucks agreed to extend Sanders mental health protections. This meant that should Sanders suffer from conditions that could be diagnosed as mental health-related, he'd be protected under the terms so long as he complied with a mental health treatment plan -- just as is the case contractually with the recovery from physical injury. In other words, he would have gotten paid even if he didn't play basketball.


Ugh. Well, nobody to blame except the Bucks. Luckily we're in the dawn of a new era. And the future is bright. Very bright.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3468 » by MartyConlonOnTheRun » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:56 pm

JimmyTheKid wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:
At the time Sanders signed a four-year $44 million contract extension in August 2013, the Bucks agreed to extend Sanders mental health protections. This meant that should Sanders suffer from conditions that could be diagnosed as mental health-related, he'd be protected under the terms so long as he complied with a mental health treatment plan -- just as is the case contractually with the recovery from physical injury. In other words, he would have gotten paid even if he didn't play basketball.


Ugh. Well, nobody to blame except the Bucks. Luckily we're in the dawn of a new era. And the future is bright. Very bright.

Wait, I don't get how this is the Bucks fault. The way I read it is. They go "Hey Larry, we know you have issues. To protect both of us we added this insurance plan with a few requirements. You ever think you need help, you'll still get paid and we will be fine, too" Larry says nah, the care isn't good enough for me and I'm gonna do me.

I get he has mental issues and that is causing 99% of the problems, but in the end his actions totally screwed the Bucks over.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3469 » by MartyConlonOnTheRun » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:58 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:^^i missed that one.

This Sanders thing was a mess from day one. Herb left us the parting gift of selling to great, great new owners. But at the end there, SOB was needed. That front office was a mess if they gave Larry $44 million guaranteed and mental health guarantees also. Obviously they knew Larry had big issues back then.

Oh, and Woelfel and the guy who posted that Larry got in a fight with Kidd at practice are confirmed here.

Woelfel also hinted at him not wanting to go to rehab. He missed the important details of why he didn't want to go. That said, there was nothing stopping Larry from going to drug rehab for 2 weeks and then checking into the mental hospital. I still think there is a lot of spin on this and Larry only looks out for himself. It's best he is off the team.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3470 » by EastSideBucksFan » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:58 pm

MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:
JimmyTheKid wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:


Ugh. Well, nobody to blame except the Bucks. Luckily we're in the dawn of a new era. And the future is bright. Very bright.

Wait, I don't get how this is the Bucks fault. The way I read it is. They go "Hey Larry, we know you have issues. To protect both of us we added this insurance plan with a few requirements. You ever think you need help, you'll still get paid and we will be fine, too" Larry says nah, the care isn't good enough for me and I'm gonna do me.

I get he has mental issues and that is causing 99% of the problems, but in the end his actions totally screwed the Bucks over.



It's saying the Bucks were well aware & cognizant about the depths of his issues when we inked him to that deal.

We were under no pressure to sign him during that summer and could've waited another season to see if he could repeat.

Not taking the position it's "all" their fault. But they certainly took a massive risk while being aware of the risks.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3471 » by Sky High » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:04 pm

This was the only part that kind of bothered me:

But more than a week before his scheduled departure from the facility, Sanders checked out, much to the consternation of those who helped orchestrate his treatment program. The plan was to stay four weeks, but Sanders departed more than a week before his scheduled departure and flew to the Caribbean.

"He says he wants the best treatment, but then he rejects the treatment," said an involved source who was disappointed because he said Sanders' advocates went to great lengths to find him a treatment regimen that would allow him to address his issues.


Bums me out that he claims to be so dedicated to getting help...only to leave treatment for tropical drinks, sunshine, and Caribbean gold diggers.

Other than that, it is what it is. I could care less at this point. The Bucks got out nearly unscathed. We have money to spend for the future. That future is bright. Annnnnnd....we move on.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3472 » by MartyConlonOnTheRun » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:07 pm

Sky High wrote:This was the only part that kind of bothered me:

But more than a week before his scheduled departure from the facility, Sanders checked out, much to the consternation of those who helped orchestrate his treatment program. The plan was to stay four weeks, but Sanders departed more than a week before his scheduled departure and flew to the Caribbean.

"He says he wants the best treatment, but then he rejects the treatment," said an involved source who was disappointed because he said Sanders' advocates went to great lengths to find him a treatment regimen that would allow him to address his issues.


Bums me out that he claims to be so dedicated to getting help...only to leave treatment for tropical drinks, sunshine, and Caribbean gold diggers.

Other than that, it is what it is. I could care less at this point. The Bucks got out nearly unscathed. We have money to spend for the future. That future is bright. Annnnnnd....we move on.

Yeah, won't talk about his children or family when trying to get his life straight, but flying to the Carribean to smoke and hang out is pretty good plan.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3473 » by Prince12 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:08 pm

The bucks either thought Larry could seek enough help to get him through the contract or were just to scared to let him go through fear of fan backlash. I'm stunned they offered a contract that size with all these mental health clauses/guarantees. Seems like an awful bit of business but then again I shouldn't be suprised.
I to would've liked to here more about the training incident. I'm guessing if your suffering from depression the last thing you want to do is get smashed in training and he just decided he'd had enough.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3474 » by RayRayJones » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:09 pm

MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:Larry only looks out for himself. It's best he is off the team.


I agree with the latter; he shouldn't be on an NBA court right now, and even Larry agrees with that. I'm just hoping you're not using "Larry only looks out for himself" as a negative connotation. When you suffer from mental health problems, for the most part, that's all you can do.

Loved the piece, I think it's most interesting that as we wondered if Gery was right or not, there was national media paying attention to this. Larry's request to keep it private just kept it from being reported.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3475 » by RW23 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:22 pm

It's pretty damn hard for Larry apologists at this point. He ditched on his teammates, ignored the team and players, and then ditched on his treatment to go on vacation.

And I know, I know, "But he's depressed!" But as a fan of a team, it's hard to be anything better than extremely frustrated and annoyed with Larry and his actions.

That being said, I'm 100% with those that just want to move on. Can't wait until this thread disappears into the abyss.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3476 » by humanrefutation » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:23 pm

That was a fascinating article, especially when dealing with the dichotomy between Larry's statements and his actions.

Larry comes off as someone who has some insight into his struggles and seems to echo many of the things people who have knowledge of or experience with mental illness consistently emphasize - the stigma, the challenges with treatment, the impact of personal experiences, the types of events which can lead to episodes of decompensation, etc. But his choice to check out of treatment a week early doesn't look good for him, nor is it his decision to eschew the protections afforded by his contract for a buyout.

That being said, I could see how he could feel like the regimen the contract requires him to follow may not be helping to address his concerns and he'd rather take 40% of his deal and focus on methods that can better help to address the challenges he's dealing with, but it's always concerning when someone who is dealing with those kinds of issues try to go it alone.

It looks like the Bucks tried to work with Larry, and they deserve credit for that.

I'm just going to wish Larry the best and move on at this point.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3477 » by JayMKE » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:23 pm

Sky High wrote:This was the only part that kind of bothered me:

But more than a week before his scheduled departure from the facility, Sanders checked out, much to the consternation of those who helped orchestrate his treatment program. The plan was to stay four weeks, but Sanders departed more than a week before his scheduled departure and flew to the Caribbean.

"He says he wants the best treatment, but then he rejects the treatment," said an involved source who was disappointed because he said Sanders' advocates went to great lengths to find him a treatment regimen that would allow him to address his issues.


Bums me out that he claims to be so dedicated to getting help...only to leave treatment for tropical drinks, sunshine, and Caribbean gold diggers.

Other than that, it is what it is. I could care less at this point. The Bucks got out nearly unscathed. We have money to spend for the future. That future is bright. Annnnnnd....we move on.


I dunno man, that Wisconsin winter is so brutal it can't be good for your mental health. It just never ends...

76 here without a cloud in the sky btw :P
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3478 » by Sky High » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:26 pm

JayMKE wrote:
Sky High wrote:This was the only part that kind of bothered me:

But more than a week before his scheduled departure from the facility, Sanders checked out, much to the consternation of those who helped orchestrate his treatment program. The plan was to stay four weeks, but Sanders departed more than a week before his scheduled departure and flew to the Caribbean.

"He says he wants the best treatment, but then he rejects the treatment," said an involved source who was disappointed because he said Sanders' advocates went to great lengths to find him a treatment regimen that would allow him to address his issues.


Bums me out that he claims to be so dedicated to getting help...only to leave treatment for tropical drinks, sunshine, and Caribbean gold diggers.

Other than that, it is what it is. I could care less at this point. The Bucks got out nearly unscathed. We have money to spend for the future. That future is bright. Annnnnnd....we move on.


I dunno man, that Wisconsin winter is so brutal it can't be good for your mental health. It just never ends...

76 here without a cloud in the sky btw :P


You know, I didn't even look at it that way. Good point. The weather out here is blasphemes :banghead: This will be my last winter here in WI. I'm done. Just over it.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3479 » by BobbyLight » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:27 pm

Sky High wrote:This was the only part that kind of bothered me:

But more than a week before his scheduled departure from the facility, Sanders checked out, much to the consternation of those who helped orchestrate his treatment program. The plan was to stay four weeks, but Sanders departed more than a week before his scheduled departure and flew to the Caribbean.

"He says he wants the best treatment, but then he rejects the treatment," said an involved source who was disappointed because he said Sanders' advocates went to great lengths to find him a treatment regimen that would allow him to address his issues.


Bums me out that he claims to be so dedicated to getting help...only to leave treatment for tropical drinks, sunshine, and Caribbean gold diggers.


Yeah, this right here was why I said since his video came out that he's just using this as an excuse. He's a fraud. The fact that he has mental issues are probably not fraudulent, but his desire to help himself is nothing more than a shell to protect himself from criticism.

The other two things that stuck out were:

Soon after he departed the facility, Sanders instructed his agents to seek a buyout from the Bucks, against their advice.


So no we know that. He wanted to get away so badly to help himself that he asked to get some money he didn't earn, all while not being in compliance with the plan he agreed to complete to help him deal with his issues. Nice.

Although Sanders prefers marijuana's natural quality and feels its effects are gentler, it's exceedingly difficult to find a professional clinician who will back him. They maintain that whatever effects it might have treating pain, marijuana unequivocally does not help mental health or performance and can exacerbate a condition such as depression.

"It has the potential to damage the brain," says Ira Glick, a professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Stanford who has consulted for or worked with the NBA and NFL. "[Sanders] should have a competent physician to manage his pain problems, as well as diagnose and treat his mental and/or psychiatric problems."


Again, another thing that makes me think he doesn't really care. If he wanted to get better and is really depressed with a mood disorder, weed is going to murder his chances of getting better. I believe weed can maybe help some mental issues, but it certainly isn't depression or mood disorders and there is a ton of scientific evidence to back that up. Drugs and alcohol are not your friend.

At the end of the day, you're right. We got out of this much more easier than we could have and now he can do as he pleases and the team can move forward without him. Which they seem to be doing just fine with.
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Re: The Larry Sanders conundrum (ESPN story pg 174) 

Post#3480 » by worthlessBucks » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:30 pm

I don't think anybody here would have advocated an early signing of Larry if we were privy to the knowledge that he had issues beyond what we saw in his ejections. Big screw up there.

Up and leave to the Caribbean. Ya man.
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