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ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Wes out for year pg. 37)

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ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Wes out for year pg. 37) 

Post#1 » by DH34Phan » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:02 pm

"First of all I've always believed analytics was crap," Barkley said on TNT's postgame coverage of the Rockets' 127-118 win over the Phoenix Suns. "You know I never mention the Rockets as legitimate contenders 'cause they're not. And listen, I wouldn't know Daryl Morey if he walked into this room right now."

Barkley made his case after saying the Rockets -- 36-16 and third in the West -- were poor on defense among playoff-contending teams despite being among the top statistical teams in the NBA defensively.

"Just because you've got good stats doesn't mean you're a good team defensively," Barkley said. "They're not a good defensive team. They gave up 118 points. No good team gives up 118 points."


An NBA coach, speaking to ESPN.com senior writer Ramona Shelburne, said there is value in the use of analytics but that it is limited.

"To say they've revolutionized everything about coaching or basketball is just wrong," the coach said.

The NBA coach said he uses analytics but that a lot of the statistics and formulas have been available for 10 years.

"You just had to look it up yourself on a computer," the coach said.

"These guys are bright, ambitious and a lot of them have carved out niches for themselves where they take credit for everything," the coach added. "You're taking people with a background in analytics. But they're out evaluating players and making decisions."


http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12308938/charles-barkley-fires-back-daryl-morey-houston-rockets-stats-idiot
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. HOU GM (Adv. Stats) 

Post#2 » by emunney » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:04 pm

Barkley is as out of his depth talking about data as Morey would be on the court.
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#3 » by JayMKE » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:15 pm

A lot of people want analytics in basketball to be like they are in baseball but I think there are certain intangibles in this game that cannot be measured statistically so their usefulness is much limited. That's not saying it doesn't have any value but there isn't going to be a movie made about Daryl Morey starring Brad Pitt any time soon.
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. HOU GM (Adv. Stats) 

Post#4 » by Ron Swanson » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:24 pm

I think somebody more eloquent than Charles Barkley is needed to convey the downside of taking analytics too far, because there is definitely a legitimate debate to be had with this issue. If used correctly, analytic stats are helpful for scouts and GMs to more accurately identify which players fit a certain role, and what personnel to surround your current players and coaching staff with.

Ultimately though, it's just that, another tool and not some magic "money-ball" philosophy that's going to revolutionize sports and build dynasties. Chuck's right on his basic premise, it's all about talent. If you don't have talented players, analytics are useless. Talent combined with a coaching staff and scouting dept. invested in analytics is maximizing it's effectiveness.

I think there's a growing wing of new age GMs who think that analytics is some fail-proof formula to build a contender and coincidentally ignore the important personal connections that make a team truly click. Numbers don't articulate personalities, tendencies, and cohesive chemistry. It's the guys who try to build a team like it's a simulated season in NBA 2K15 franchise mode that will fail. Which is where I think most old-school basketball guys are coming from in their criticism of analytics.

I was actually more surprised at how childish Morey came off through this whole thing. I don't think I've ever seen a GM resort to petty Twitter insults to try and slam a TV personality...
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#5 » by smauss » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:45 pm

"The NBA is about talent," Barkley continued. "All these guys who run these organizations who talk about analytics, they have one thing in common -- they're a bunch of guys who have never played the game, and they never got the girls in high school, and they just want to get in the game."


I And+'d Ron post, I have no dog in this fight but: This is absolute gold! :lol:
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#6 » by glenn » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:05 am

Not sure where else to put this, or if it's been mentioned elsewhere. Sad news.
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#7 » by Bernman » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:36 am

It was funny how Shaq and Barkley thought being really tall translated inherently into being knowledgeable about basketball. Shaq is aware that he was in the NBA because he was a 7-footer, right?

Even guys who were really good in spite their lack of height, like Isaiah, have royally sucked as NBA execs. So playing success doesn't near 1:1 equate to knowledge either. But a lot of former players sure delusionally like to believe it does which makes them insiders and others outsiders.

And I say this as someone who was a good overall athlete. Not near NBA good, but not near like he was describing either. It's not like I was sitting on benches with a clipboard.

I agree with Ronald and Smauss that analytics have become overrated and to reach your potential in terms of basketball knowledge you need a blend of analytics and the eye test. The eye test has more potential validity, analytics more reliability. Incidentally, Chuck realizes he uses analytics when he cites a 20-10 performance, right? It's just an inferior form. So he's pro inferior analytics.
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#8 » by DanoMac » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:20 am

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Tjonessltrib/status/565741739831721984[/tweet]
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#9 » by Prince12 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:24 am

Harden not getting the calls tonight, refreshing.
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#10 » by Prince12 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:31 am

Dirk gets an All-star Guernsey. Interesting, probably would've picked a few ahead of him but I'll never knock Dirk.
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#11 » by DH34Phan » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:41 am

DanoMac wrote:[tweet]https://twitter.com/Tjonessltrib/status/565741739831721984[/tweet]

Maybe having Ersan and Zaza would make Kanter want to come to Milwaukee. And his brother plays for UWGB. :D

I'd offer Henson and the Clippers 1st. They'd probably want more, though.
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#12 » by Prince12 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:46 am

DH34Phan wrote:
DanoMac wrote:[tweet]https://twitter.com/Tjonessltrib/status/565741739831721984[/tweet]

Maybe having Ersan and Zaza would make Kanter want to come to Milwaukee. And his brother plays for UWGB. :D

I'd offer Henson and the Clippers 1st. They'd probably want more, though.

I'm fairly certain any trade we make is including Ersan.
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#13 » by DH34Phan » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:55 am

Bucks getting love from Van Gundy and Jackson on the ESPN game. Says Kidd should be in the conversation for Coach of the Year. Also mentioned losing Jabari and Sanders.
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#14 » by blazza18 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:08 am

Houston play the least entertaining game of all the good teams in the league. It's 4pm here and this games putting me to sleep.
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#15 » by SpursNBucks » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:54 am

JayMKE wrote:A lot of people want analytics in basketball to be like they are in baseball but I think there are certain intangibles in this game that cannot be measured statistically so their usefulness is much limited. That's not saying it doesn't have any value but there isn't going to be a movie made about Daryl Morey starring Brad Pitt any time soon.


Excellent summary
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. HOU GM (Adv. Stats) 

Post#16 » by SpursNBucks » Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:02 am

Ron Swanson wrote:I think somebody more eloquent than Charles Barkley is needed to convey the downside of taking analytics too far, because there is definitely a legitimate debate to be had with this issue. If used correctly, analytic stats are helpful for scouts and GMs to more accurately identify which players fit a certain role, and what personnel to surround your current players and coaching staff with.

Ultimately though, it's just that, another tool and not some magic "money-ball" philosophy that's going to revolutionize sports and build dynasties. Chuck's right on his basic premise, it's all about talent. If you don't have talented players, analytics are useless. Talent combined with a coaching staff and scouting dept. invested in analytics is maximizing it's effectiveness.

I think there's a growing wing of new age GMs who think that analytics is some fail-proof formula to build a contender and coincidentally ignore the important personal connections that make a team truly click. Numbers don't articulate personalities, tendencies, and cohesive chemistry. It's the guys who try to build a team like it's a simulated season in NBA 2K15 franchise mode that will fail. Which is where I think most old-school basketball guys are coming from in their criticism of analytics.

I was actually more surprised at how childish Morey came off through this whole thing. I don't think I've ever seen a GM resort to petty Twitter insults to try and slam a TV personality...


Agree - The Bucks board is full of the BB Analytic stat geeks who think it is the end-all. The fact is it's just another tool, and often has plenty of flaws. It's fine to quote if for fun, but realize the flaws - many of the same type of analytic s contradict each other.
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#17 » by Prince12 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:02 am

blazza18 wrote:Houston play the least entertaining game of all the good teams in the league. It's 4pm here and this games putting me to sleep.

As if shooting 45 3's wasn't enough with a mixture of Harden arm flapping they decided to chuck in 2 minutes of hack-a-Jordan. I did nod off.
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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#18 » by Ill-yasova » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:51 pm

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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#19 » by Badgerlander » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:07 pm

[tweet]https://twitter.com/IAmDPick/status/565887462547800064[/tweet]

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Re: ATL: Barkley vs. Houston GM (Advanced Stats) 

Post#20 » by sidney lanier » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:16 pm

Bernman wrote: Incidentally, Chuck realizes he uses analytics when he cites a 20-10 performance, right? It's just an inferior form. So he's pro inferior analytics.


That silly syllogism encapsulates the problem I see with those who use analytics, and I suspect it's part of the reason Barkley played the nerd card in his rant.

We all want to learn more about the game and seek reliable ways to compare players and performances. When advocates of analytics come across as the fundamentalist sect of some weird religion and chide everyone else for the level or quality of their knowledge and belief, I find it distasteful. Add the annoying trait of playing with statistics without a demonstrable understanding of the basics of real (mathematical) statistics (which understanding carries with it some humility about data and the way it can be used) and I think they make themselves fair game for criticism.

The analogy I've used a dozen times in these discussions is a policeman's flashlight. Analytics guys tend to use their flashlight as a club, the way a policeman uses his flashlight. Especially around here, and maybe everywhere, we're clubbed over the head with numbers purporting to prove things they don't really prove. Better to live in a world where we shine the flashlight on the subject and all work together to try to understand what we're looking at.
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