PG: Did you guys know Lebron was good? Bucks Lose 108-90

[Badgerlander]

Spoiler:

I honestly don't know how some people can't see this








Also since the break Ersan is averaging-
13.6pts 6.9reb 1.1ast on 46.5%/41.8%/60% on 29.6min and 19.4% usage

just imagine Ersan's production replaced with Jabari

Just so I can understand it... for On-Court, high pie = good, and for Off-Court, high pie = bad, basically that the team plays better without them? So that bottom chart implies that the team is at its best with Zaza, MCW, and Middleton on the floor?

That's the way that I am taking it too, so somebody please correct me if that is completely wrong but it looks to me that our team since the break is at its best with the starting 5 on the court.

[MrPerfect1]

Since 1960, MCW is one of only TWO players who averaged more than 34 mpg in their first two seasons without cracking 40 percent FG or 70 percent FT. The good news? The other guy was Jason Kidd.

That's insanely sad and hilarious.

Not super surprising. I would bet that not too many players even average 34 mins/game each of their 1st 2 years, except for usually the best of the best prospects.

[M-C-G]

Ok, I tried to do some quick math from game logs, but if anyone has a way to run the data please do;

Bayless has played in 66 games this year;
1st 33 games average +/- of 3.6
2nd 33 games average +/- of -2.3

Then I wanted to see how bad his last 10 games have been;
Last 10 games average +/- of -9.7

Which is kind of amazing given that we have been fairly competitive in most the games. I am beginning to think it isn't the "bench" that is causing us to lose, it is the specifically the Bayless part of the bench that is killing us.

[VooDoo7]

This picture of Kidd & Bayless made me laugh this morning and I couldn't help but think of Rocky 3.

I saw this and this song immediately popped in my head.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcXURC_nNhc[/youtube]

[paulpressey25]

That's the way that I am taking it too, so somebody please correct me if that is completely wrong but it looks to me that our team since the break is at its best with the starting 5 on the court.

I think our starting five has played pretty well since the trade, especially on defense.

During yesterday's game I kept wondering who Kidd should sub in and realized there is no one reliable anywhere on that bench anymore. Since Henson went to the bench, he's been generally trash. Ennis is a good guy but he's so raw. Bayless has reverted back into what he's always been, a Charlie Bell/Gary Neal caliber player.

My only regret is that Miami, Indiana, Charlotte and Indy are all being given an open door by the Bucks to walk into the playoff spot, but all four are dumpster fires in their own way. That tells me that even if this team won "45 games" this year it wouldn't be representative of a quality team given how weak the East is.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Ok, well I think we have found the root of our month old disagreement here, and now we can all stop posting.

23 year old borderline allstars who just got moved for the rough equivalent of 3 #1's.... are really risky business

Darren Collison would have been a "borderline All-Star" in the East. It means nothing.

the return for knight, especially before flipping the pick for mcw, negates any argument against his value. he had, and has, a ton of value..... and using other similar players/contracts as an example, he would have maintained that value until at least age 25 or 26 barring career threatening injury. you could look back for years and struggle to find an exception to this scenario im painting

[Badgerlander]

That's the way that I am taking it too, so somebody please correct me if that is completely wrong but it looks to me that our team since the break is at its best with the starting 5 on the court.

I think our starting five has played pretty well since the trade, especially on defense.

During yesterday's game I kept wondering who Kidd should sub in and realized there is no one reliable anywhere on that bench anymore. Since Henson went to the bench, he's been generally trash. Ennis is a good guy but he's so raw. Bayless has reverted back into what he's always been, a Charlie Bell/Gary Neal caliber player.

My only regret is that Miami, Indiana, Charlotte and Indy are all being given an open door by the Bucks to walk into the playoff spot, but all four are dumpster fires in their own way. That tells me that even if this team won "45 games" this year it wouldn't be representative of a quality team given how weak the East is.

I just look forward to replacing Ersan with Jabari, getting to see what we have in Inglis, adding another player in the draft this summer and possibly an impact player in FA, along with a training camp for MCW/Ennis/Plum. It's not hard to anticipate next years improvement over this year.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

whoops

[mattg]

Be patient. Lets see what Kidd can do. We're taking a risk on a guy with elite PG skills. Next year we can start to draw conclusions once he has an actual roster. He's being forced to score. This roster is awful.

People keep saying this and it makes me think they are literally blind, but what elite skills are they referring to?

[machu46]

Be patient. Lets see what Kidd can do. We're taking a risk on a guy with elite PG skills. Next year we can start to draw conclusions once he has an actual roster. He's being forced to score. This roster is awful.

People keep saying this and it makes me think they are literally blind, but what elite skills are they referring to?

I'd say he has all the makings of an elite defender, and has elite size/athleticism for the PG position. Not elite, but he has very good passing skills, very good first step, and is very good at beating his man off the dribble/turning the corner off screens. And I think he has the potential to be pretty good at finishing around the rim and scoring from the post. He needs to learn to play with more balance when he's going up in traffic.

On the downside, his jump shot is obviously terrible right now, he still leaves his feet too often, especially for someone his size, and he tries to thread the needle too often. He's kinda similar to John Wall in his UK/first couple years in the NBA in that way, but those weaknesses are weaker for MCW and he's not the freakish out of this world athlete that Wall is.

And no, I'm not saying MCW will ever approach Wall as a player, so don't bother jumping on me for that. But he has a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses. His strengths just aren't as strong and weaknesses are weaker.

[averageposter]

I like MCW's defense right now and love the defensive potential for sure. I don't really sweat the jumper, of any one deficiency the jumper can be fixed over time. It needs to be, particularly if Giannis and Parker don't push their games further out with efficiency over time. While they are all 3 working on that spacing is going to be interesting the next year or two.

I do struggle to say he's got above average vision. I think its obvious he's looking more than a guy like Knight and is seeing stuff Knight didn't but the turnovers should be lower for somebody with great vision. The turnovers are of the same variety and frequency of Knight and he had head down looking to score.

[coolhandluke121]

Surround MCW with good shooters at every position and let him put up numbers. That will hide some of his flaws. Then flip him for a top-10 pick. As a trade asset, I have confidence that he has more expected value than the unknown Lakers' pick. There are a lot of realistic scenarios next year that could move that pick out of the top 10 or into the top 3, where it's protected. And it's very likely that it will be protected this year.

[GoldenAntlers]

I didn't get a chance to view this game, but I saw the quarterly updates.

At half I had hope.
After the 3rd I had hope.
After the game ended, well, I guess I wasn't surprised.
Incredible though, how such a turn can take place after what appeared to be an even matched game.

Unfortunately, it is now time to sign me up for the tank.
Next season should be fun.

[mattg]

Be patient. Lets see what Kidd can do. We're taking a risk on a guy with elite PG skills. Next year we can start to draw conclusions once he has an actual roster. He's being forced to score. This roster is awful.

People keep saying this and it makes me think they are literally blind, but what elite skills are they referring to?

I'd say he has all the makings of an elite defender, and has elite size/athleticism for the PG position. Not elite, but he has very good passing skills, very good first step, and is very good at beating his man off the dribble/turning the corner off screens. And I think he has the potential to be pretty good at finishing around the rim and scoring from the post. He needs to learn to play with more balance when he's going up in traffic.

On the downside, his jump shot is obviously terrible right now, he still leaves his feet too often, especially for someone his size, and he tries to thread the needle too often. He's kinda similar to John Wall in his UK/first couple years in the NBA in that way, but those weaknesses are weaker for MCW and he's not the freakish out of this world athlete that Wall is.

And no, I'm not saying MCW will ever approach Wall as a player, so don't bother jumping on me for that. But he has a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses. His strengths just aren't as strong and weaknesses are weaker.

He has good size/athletic ability obviously. He can defend. However if we are talking basketball skills, which is what continually gets referenced, he is nowhere close to elite in any category and closer to the exact opposite of elite in most. MCW is toolsy, not skilled in any form or fashion. There is a major major difference and it needs to be said.

[Max Green]

RealGM Bucks forum... the place where 90% of people want to rebuild through the draft and preach patience with youth... also the place where 90% of people tend to want to give up on young players when they aren't great right away.

#Truth

[machu46]

People keep saying this and it makes me think they are literally blind, but what elite skills are they referring to?

I'd say he has all the makings of an elite defender, and has elite size/athleticism for the PG position. Not elite, but he has very good passing skills, very good first step, and is very good at beating his man off the dribble/turning the corner off screens. And I think he has the potential to be pretty good at finishing around the rim and scoring from the post. He needs to learn to play with more balance when he's going up in traffic.

On the downside, his jump shot is obviously terrible right now, he still leaves his feet too often, especially for someone his size, and he tries to thread the needle too often. He's kinda similar to John Wall in his UK/first couple years in the NBA in that way, but those weaknesses are weaker for MCW and he's not the freakish out of this world athlete that Wall is.

And no, I'm not saying MCW will ever approach Wall as a player, so don't bother jumping on me for that. But he has a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses. His strengths just aren't as strong and weaknesses are weaker.

He has good size/athletic ability obviously. He can defend. However if we are talking basketball skills, which is what continually gets referenced, he is nowhere close to elite in any category and closer to the exact opposite of elite in most. MCW is toolsy, not skilled in any form or fashion. There is a major major difference and it needs to be said.

I wouldn't say he's elite in any category right now, but he's close to it defensively and I think he will be once he gets more comfortable with our rotations. But yeah, I agree he's more toolsy than skilled at the moment but you could say that about our potential franchise savior too.

[M-C-G]

Off topic, but "elite" gets thrown around here way too often. We need a word for whatever is right below elite, like top notch, upper class or something.

I haven't seen anything really elite on this team, but maybe I am being overly critical.

[El Duderino]

yes. i keep saying it because its true. even at 15mil he still has a positive value around the league in trade at the level of play hed shown.

Ok, well I think we have found the root of our month old disagreement here, and now we can all stop posting.

A couple weeks back I asked him to find for me value contracts of non-all star players that were paid $8 to $10mm or more a year and whether those contracts worked out. There were like four in the last 15 years and he even admitted as such after he did the research. But hey, the guy not suiting up for Phoenix that is shooting 35% while Phoenix wins with him in street clothes will easily be a positive asset after he's locked in for 4/$60 come July.

The biggest problem with guys who get large contracts which they don't perform up to and then their team tries to trade those type of guys is the team almost always has to take back a similar amount in salary for cap reasons.

[Baddy Chuck]

RealGM Bucks forum... the place where 90% of people want to rebuild through the draft and preach patience with youth... also the place where 90% of people tend to want to give up on young players when they aren't great right away.

#Truth

I think one disconnect we have here seems to be a lot of people willing to give MCW a clean slate since the trade and those of us that aren't. There's been a lot of tape of MCW to this point, he isn't exactly young and he hasn't exactly been good. I want good young players, I don't think MCW is a good young player. Same reasoning I basically gave up on Jennings early on.

[Ron Swanson]

Off topic, but "elite" gets thrown around here way too often. We need a word for whatever is right below elite, like top notch, upper class or something.

I haven't seen anything really elite on this team, but maybe I am being overly critical.

Agreed. It especially mucks up legitimate debates when people use it to describe attributes that aren't really quantifiable. For instance, Chris Paul has "elite" court vision. MCW does not.