ATL: Salary Cap Set to Explode/1st Round Playoff Talk

[brettski]

David Lee gets 3 minutes?? Oh how the "mighty" has fallen

[stellation]

David Lee gets 3 minutes?? Oh how the "mighty" has fallen

To be fair he has had a back injury and hadn't played for 3 weeks, he actually looked okay out there but appeared to be on managed minutes.

[KidA24]

Are the Bucks still paying Gooden?

After two weeks ago, nope! DREW GOODEN IS OFF THE BOOKS!

[DavidDunn21]

jordans the most overrated player in history, and his game wouldnt translate well in this era.

Come on bro seriously cut the homer ****

if i said pippen > jordan, would it add validity to my comments?

You'd be doubling down on insanity.



Plus, Pippen is already the most overrated player in history

[coolhandluke121]

It is true that Jordan's game wouldn't translate well in the sense that so many people would not consider him the undisputed best player ever if he had played in an era where zone defenses were allowed and hand-checks were not. The cult of personality that's been built up around Jordan is partly a product of his era and marketability. The marketing machine and isoball rules helped blur the line between legend and myth. Having such a great supporting cast helps too. Imagine replacing Lebron or Duncan or Kareem or Shaq or Hakeem with a player the caliber of Pete Myers, adding a few halfway decent bench players, and still winning 50+ while being a contender. That's astounding.

If MJ gets more votes than anyone else for best player ever, that's fine. But the people who act like there's absolutely no doubt about it and want to shoot down any debate whatsoever are as loony as scientologists, and he's overrated in the sense that there's a lot of them. There are plenty of legitimate question marks and counterpoints.

[DavidDunn21]

It is true that Jordan's game wouldn't translate well in the sense that so many people would not consider him the undisputed best player ever if he had played in an era where zone defenses were allowed and hand-checks were not. The cult of personality that's been built up around Jordan is partly a product of his era and marketability. The marketing machine and isoball rules helped blur the line between legend and myth. Having such a great supporting cast helps too. Imagine replacing Lebron or Duncan or Kareem or Shaq or Hakeem with a player the caliber of Pete Myers, adding a few halfway decent bench players, and still winning 50+ while being a contender. That's astounding.

If MJ gets more votes than anyone else for best player ever, that's fine. But the people who act like there's absolutely no doubt about it and want to shoot down any debate whatsoever are as loony as scientologists, and he's overrated in the sense that there's a lot of them. There are plenty of legitimate question marks and counterpoints.

Not really.

First of all, he played in his era, not this one. Secondly, he'd still be the most physically gifted SG in the league. His gifts dwarfed Prime Wade and Kobe's gifts, and they destroyed their era when healthy. Thirdly, he was the best two way player ever. You think that might translate today? How many free throws would he get today? Fourth, there has never been anyone mentally superior.

So, I'm a Bucks fan, but....you are mistaken in the extreme. If anything, he's underrated.

[ackypoo]

you dont get it both ways. if you want to talk about the era, then clearly bill russell > michael jordan and its not even close. if you want to disregard era, then you need to take into account that jordans game, which so far, non of his supporters will address.

[El Duderino]

It is true that Jordan's game wouldn't translate well in the sense that so many people would not consider him the undisputed best player ever if he had played in an era where zone defenses were allowed and hand-checks were not. The cult of personality that's been built up around Jordan is partly a product of his era and marketability. The marketing machine and isoball rules helped blur the line between legend and myth. Having such a great supporting cast helps too. Imagine replacing Lebron or Duncan or Kareem or Shaq or Hakeem with a player the caliber of Pete Myers, adding a few halfway decent bench players, and still winning 50+ while being a contender. That's astounding.

If MJ gets more votes than anyone else for best player ever, that's fine. But the people who act like there's absolutely no doubt about it and want to shoot down any debate whatsoever are as loony as scientologists, and he's overrated in the sense that there's a lot of them. There are plenty of legitimate question marks and counterpoints.

Not really.

First of all, he played in his era, not this one. Secondly, he'd still be the most physically gifted SG in the league. His gifts dwarfed Prime Wade and Kobe's gifts, and they destroyed their era when healthy. Thirdly, he was the best two way player ever. You think that might translate today? How many free throws would he get today? Fourth, there has never been anyone mentally superior.

No doubt

James Harden averaged 10 free throws a game and he's nowhere near the player Jordan was in his prime. With no hand checks and super physical defense removed from the game today, he's absolutely live at at free throw line today.

It's so hard to compare players from different times and with differing supporting casts. Take Bird and Magic for example. Both all time greats, yet both had amazing supporting casts. On the flip side, both teams often had to face each other in the Finals or else each team would have more rings. Plus, the East was so loaded back then. Just getting to the Finals was a major accomplishment. As great as LeBron is, those Heat teams never had to face a really tough to brutal path in the East to just make the Finals as other champions needed to get out of their conference.

Of the all time greats, i do think that Hakeem just might be the most underrated. He easily could have another couple of rings with a better supporting cast over his prime years.

[HaroldinGMinor]

Jordan is probably one of the top 10 defensive guards of all time.

He could also score on occasion.

[Jez2983]

When we watched Rose get to the basket at ease on 1/2 a knee (in 2-legs combined) in this Playoff series, it doesn't occur that prime uninjured Jordan would do the same? Maybe he wasn't an excellent 3-pt shooter but he always had an excellent jumpshot. It's hard to imagine he wouldn't have been able to hit a bunch of open 3's on a team with good ball movement.

Not that I'm trying to argue who's the greetest, but I don't think diminishing Jordan is the way to win that argument.

[Sherman Douglas]

Hey just a reminder that we could have the current NBA MVP on our team but chose Monta Ellis instead have a great monday!!!!!!

[German Athens]

For the people who don't think Jordan would translate to today. Think of Kobe except a better athlete and defender. I'm pretty sure that still translates to today.

[ackypoo]

kobes a better shooter from the 3 point line and from 10ft-3point line.

jordans game would still be about getting to the rim and drawing fouls.

his FTr is also significantly less than kobes, so he didnt draw fouls at that high of a rate.

also, considering kobe was in his prime 10 years ago when iso ball was still prevalent, its not really a great comparison at all.

[HurricaneKid]

For the people who don't think Jordan would translate to today. Think of Kobe except a better athlete and defender. I'm pretty sure that still translates to today.

And the entire world mocked Kobe and his selfishness the entirety of his play this season. Thats kind of the point. In MJ's day the league established defensive rules that would reinforce the superstars power. The most efficient play in the league was ISO for your best player. Now the least efficient play is that same ISO play. So unless MJ completely changed his game his success would be far more limited today than it was in his day.

[coolhandluke121]

For the people who don't think Jordan would translate to today. Think of Kobe except a better athlete and defender. I'm pretty sure that still translates to today.

Let's get one thing clear: MJ would be great today and would be in the discussion for all-time greatest no matter what era he played in, but the rules of his era favored him more than the rules of today would. He is better than Wade and Kobe. That is obvious. But it's not so obvious that he's the most valuable player ever, and the myriad people who act like it is and attack anyone who has the audacity to even question it are over-rating him. It's the textbook definition of a cult of personality.

MJ has complained about how players today don't have to deal with the physicality of his era. However, he was the biggest, strongest, most athletic sg of his era, so the fact that so much physicality was allowed actually worked in his favor. Opposing sg's could hand-check him, but he was strong enough to handle it. Then he could do the same to them on the other end of the court. Without hand-checking, he might not have been the dominant defender he was then. There was one season he was asked to guard quick opposing pg's, and it didn't go well at all. Even being allowed to hand-check them, he had difficulty staying in front of them. If he had to guard pg's today, he wouldn't even be able to hand-check them. It's hard to envision him doing what Lebron did to Rose, one of the quickest pg's in history, in that playoff series when Rose was the MVP. The next season Lebron successfully guarded David West, arguably the most rugged low-post player in the game, in another series. That wouldn't happen with MJ. He didn't even want to guard sf's.

The illegal defense rules prevented teams from shading to help until someone got the ball, which made it easier for guys to live on penetration. Without a 3-point shot, it's harder now to be the kind of player who can get the matchup he wants, demand the ball, and score 30 ppg. Great scorers like Curry, Harden, Lebron, and Durant all shoot the 3 very well. Guys like Melo, Westbrook, Rose, and even Kobe still score a lot, but have been less efficient since zone defenses were incorporated than they would have been in the isoball era because they don't shoot the 3 as well. Teams are allowed to defend spots on the floor instead of being forced to defend each player man-to-man. MJ was a good jump-shooter, but in this era teams wouldn't be a half-step too late on a regular basis when helping in the lane or doubling in the post. Would MJ be the kind of unselfish player who gave it up every time he should? I believe he would adapt and figure it out, but his personality was to do it himself so it would be a struggle. His personality was perfect for his era, but his teams were 1-9 in his first 3 playoff series and there were legit questions about whether he would always be too ball-dominant to lead his team to success. Phil got him to buy in, just like he did with Kobe, but without his guidance neither of their careers are nearly as impressive as their one-on-one talent would suggest. History has been rewritten to call him the ultimate winner, but he had even bigger issues than young Lebron when it came to people questioning him.

[GreatDane]

kobes a better shooter from the 3 point line and from 10ft-3point line.

jordans game would still be about getting to the rim and drawing fouls.

his FTr is also significantly less than kobes, so he didnt draw fouls at that high of a rate.

also, considering kobe was in his prime 10 years ago when iso ball was still prevalent, its not really a great comparison at all.

Considering what a foul is today compared to the 90's, Jordan would get to the line 20 times a game. Michael would absolutely dominate the NBA if he were to have played in this current era. He can still defend. He can still hit big shots. He can still get to the basket. None of that goes away because he's playing in a different era, it's ludicrous to even think that.

[coolhandluke121]

As usual, any discussion about MJ turns into an intellectual vacuum.