PG Thread (Utah) - 2 Tanks left until trade deadline

[El Duderino]

Is it any coincidence that KM went back to being a chucking dumpster fire when Kidd came back?

Middleton is being used in a fashion that exceeds his skillset. He's mainly a 3 and D guy with pretty good passing abilities and someone who can be used in a post up here and there. Yet, sometimes Kidd has the offense running through Mids as if he's a Kobe or Wade type of shooting guard.

It's not his fault that he's to often being asked to be a type of player which he isn't. He's an above average SG, not a number one option on offense.

[Chapter29]

I was just talking to a friend about Middleton. He's being asked to do way too much. He's a 2nd or better yet 3rd guy. He's a 3 and D guy. Not a lead scorer and facilitator.

[AussieBuck]

I wish the team could get to see a 5 game stretch without Monroe but unfortunately you can't wish for that right before the trade deadline. What's funny is his rpm on ESPN is way higher than his real results I feel. Over the last 5 losses for example, he is minus 49 and Plumlee is plus 9. I have a feeling he might have the worst plus minus rating in games overall this year if you added them all up. This might be an addition by subtraction deal with him since I feel like the team usually plays better with Henson or Plums than Monroe. Add in the fact we have a terrible bench which is when those backup centers should be coming in and it really speaks to Monroe being a huge net negative.

I don't know quite what to make of Plumlee. For all intents and purposes, he seems to be a really good backup. He's not as good of a shot blocker as Henson, but he's better than Monroe (IMHO). He's more athletic than often given credit for. From what I've seen, he's a better leaper than Monroe, but has little offensive game. A real question - Why doesn't he see more time? What am I missing?

Plum isn't the most cerebral guy around.

[VooDoo7]

I don't get some of the pro-Kidd revisionist history with Prunty. Ton of us raved about Prunty at the time when the team looked so much better for weeks with him. If you want to tone down the hype, that's fine, but to say nothing at all was different is disingenuous. He clearly tried different things that Kidd didn't. He actually benched MCW for extended stretches and played Rashad at point guard, and ran the offense through Giannis at point forward. When has Kidd ever done that? Prunty also routinely benched both Monroe and Bayless when they were sucking on either end. Meanwhile Kidd just a couple games ago closed with Bayless on a night where Vaughn had it going and Bayless who was screwing us over all night. iirc is Bayless is averaging like 8 more minutes a game under Kidd than he was under Prunty.

Did he make any drastic changes in terms of plays, schemes, etc? No, but what he did was establish a level of accountability across all players, not just the young guys..he trusted everyone equally and that matters with young teams. He didn't bench the young guys the second they made a mistake, and did bench the vets when they deserved it. The rotations were much smoother and based on play rather than status. Guys just played with more freedom and confidence during that stretch and I don't think it was a coincidence.

This x100. Especially the last sentence. That doesn't show in the box scores, but anybody who watches the games should have seen the difference.

[El Duderino]

And perhaps you good competent players.

Last I checked Prunty is still a coach for us and likely still has a ton of input.

I question if Punty has little to any input during a game as to who Kidd subs in/subs out, along with most plays called. That's what a head coach does during a game. They don't keep checking in with the assistants before deciding who to take out, who to put in, how long to sit a certain player, and/or how long to keep certain players in the game.

[Prince12]

I wish the team could get to see a 5 game stretch without Monroe but unfortunately you can't wish for that right before the trade deadline. What's funny is his rpm on ESPN is way higher than his real results I feel. Over the last 5 losses for example, he is minus 49 and Plumlee is plus 9. I have a feeling he might have the worst plus minus rating in games overall this year if you added them all up. This might be an addition by subtraction deal with him since I feel like the team usually plays better with Henson or Plums than Monroe. Add in the fact we have a terrible bench which is when those backup centers should be coming in and it really speaks to Monroe being a huge net negative.

I don't know quite what to make of Plumlee. For all intents and purposes, he seems to be a really good backup. He's not as good of a shot blocker as Henson, but he's better than Monroe (IMHO). He's more athletic than often given credit for. From what I've seen, he's a better leaper than Monroe, but has little offensive game. A real question - Why doesn't he see more time? What am I missing?

Plum isn't the most cerebral guy around.

Id be fine with Henson/Plumlee C rotation for the rest of this season. Plumlee is fine as a back up. Can actually jump, finishes plays off the glass and does block shots. All stuff we could only wish Monroe could do. He's been decent almost every time he's been asked to play when one of the other two are down.

[AussieBuck]

I don't know quite what to make of Plumlee. For all intents and purposes, he seems to be a really good backup. He's not as good of a shot blocker as Henson, but he's better than Monroe (IMHO). He's more athletic than often given credit for. From what I've seen, he's a better leaper than Monroe, but has little offensive game. A real question - Why doesn't he see more time? What am I missing?

Plum isn't the most cerebral guy around.

Id be fine with Henson/Plumlee C rotation for the rest of this season. Plumlee is fine as a back up. Can actually jump, finishes plays off the glass and does block shots. All stuff we could only wish Monroe could do. He's been decent almost every time he's been asked to play when one of the other two are down.

He's had good stints but also plenty of Gadz games. I'm fine with him finishing out the season getting minutes because I don't think he's much good and as you say he's the right style of C.

[Prince12]

Plum isn't the most cerebral guy around.

Id be fine with Henson/Plumlee C rotation for the rest of this season. Plumlee is fine as a back up. Can actually jump, finishes plays off the glass and does block shots. All stuff we could only wish Monroe could do. He's been decent almost every time he's been asked to play when one of the other two are down.

He's had good stints but also plenty of Gadz games. I'm fine with him finishing out the season getting minutes because I don't think he's much good and as you say he's the right style of C.

Oh for sure but the bigger issue is the fact we can't have any reliance on Henson. I wanted him gone after last season and the longer this year goes on the worse his contract looks and thats pretty bad considering its not crazy. His back is causing him to miss games aswell now. Great. Anyway, trade Monroe, start plumdog and ride this thing to april.

[milweskee]

Kidd's 3 point shooting restriction on Jabari and Giannis is the biggest reason why our team looks like scrap parts that don't fit. This tactic in Kidd's "development" of our supposed future stars is by far the worst thing he has done to this franchise from a coaching standpoint. I think this is understated around here and could ruin these players for their entire career. Kidd's ego surpasses and prevents the development of any potential alpha-dogs on this team. We needed a coach that was going to hand those kids the keys to the franchise. Instead he has handicapped them and made them half of what they could be. This is aside from all of the horrors of Kidd the GM.

[Prince12]

I know he said he did last year but i doubt Giannis has any restrictions on shooting threes he just passes them up. He actually is making a few corner threes which is a step in the right direction but hey, just keep jacking them up. Has there been a quote similar to the Giannis one to indicate Jabari has the same restriction? Maybe i missed it not sure but either way Jabari rarely, and i mean rarely has a look from three where I'm like yeah shoot it. He struggles to get the ball in any situation the way we are using him let alone being open for three.

[AussieBuck]

With Giannis you can see he needs to add a couple of feet to his comfortable range for non corner threes. Jabari's form allows for effortless threes. So many dudes are going to come off the ledge when he's nailing them like he did in that scrimmage. I think his form actually looks more suited to longer shots if anything.

[Prince12]

With Giannis you can see he needs to add a couple of feet to his comfortable range for non corner threes. Jabari's form allows for effortless threes. So many dudes are going to come off the ledge when he's nailing them like he did in that scrimmage. I think his form actually looks more suited to longer shots if anything.

I agree and personally I just feel the degree of Jabari's jumpers he tries to take is unnecessary. Always taking a couple extra dribbles, fading, leaning. And despite that he still makes his fair share. Get the shot up quicker, catch and shoot, there's no need to create when it's not required.

[Treebeard]

I don't know quite what to make of Plumlee. For all intents and purposes, he seems to be a really good backup. He's not as good of a shot blocker as Henson, but he's better than Monroe (IMHO). He's more athletic than often given credit for. From what I've seen, he's a better leaper than Monroe, but has little offensive game. A real question - Why doesn't he see more time? What am I missing?

Plum isn't the most cerebral guy around.

Id be fine with Henson/Plumlee C rotation for the rest of this season. Plumlee is fine as a back up. Can actually jump, finishes plays off the glass and does block shots. All stuff we could only wish Monroe could do. He's been decent almost every time he's been asked to play when one of the other two are down.

If Plumlee gets included in any deal, that's fine - he's just a guy. Perhaps it's that I find Henson frequently very frustrating to watch. Henson's consistenly inconsistent and I get the feeling that he really drops off against better competition more often. Playoff Henson was a one-off to me. Plumlee seems like a more consistent back-up, but I've no data to back up either supposition though.

[Prince12]

Plum isn't the most cerebral guy around.

Id be fine with Henson/Plumlee C rotation for the rest of this season. Plumlee is fine as a back up. Can actually jump, finishes plays off the glass and does block shots. All stuff we could only wish Monroe could do. He's been decent almost every time he's been asked to play when one of the other two are down.

If Plumlee gets included in any deal, that's fine - he's just a guy. Perhaps it's that I find Henson frequently very frustrating to watch. Henson's consistenly inconsistent and I get the feeling that he really drops off against better competition more often. Playoff Henson was a one-off to me. Plumlee seems like a more consistent back-up I've got no data to back up either supposition though.

I suspect both are just ok backups it's just Henson plays every night. But yeah playoff Henson was a once off, we have a four year sample size to know that. Inconsistent effort, energy and just soft. Has the tools which is frustrating.

[Prez]

With Giannis you can see he needs to add a couple of feet to his comfortable range for non corner threes. Jabari's form allows for effortless threes. So many dudes are going to come off the ledge when he's nailing them like he did in that scrimmage. I think his form actually looks more suited to longer shots if anything.

It's just frustrating because you know he has the tools to do everything we need him to, but we just gotta be patient with it. He can clearly shoot, he just needs game practice, more reps in the summer, and no Kidd over his shoulder telling him not to shoot them. And every time he handles the ball it looks like a guy who once had nasty handles but is just too damn rusty. I honestly think he's gonna explode next year, like Simeon Jabari in the NBA. Having an entire offseason where he can focus exclusively on his game and tightening up all his skills is gonna be a game changer for him and this team.

[AussieBuck]

With Giannis you can see he needs to add a couple of feet to his comfortable range for non corner threes. Jabari's form allows for effortless threes. So many dudes are going to come off the ledge when he's nailing them like he did in that scrimmage. I think his form actually looks more suited to longer shots if anything.

It's just frustrating because you know he has the tools to do everything we need him to, but we just gotta be patient with it. He can clearly shoot, he just needs game practice, more reps in the summer, and no Kidd over his shoulder telling him not to shoot them. And every time he handles the ball it looks like a guy who once had nasty handles but is just too damn rusty. I honestly think he's gonna explode next year, like Simeon Jabari in the NBA. Having an entire offseason where he can focus exclusively on his game and tightening up all his skills is gonna be a game changer for him and this team.

From seeing a ton of guys recover from ACL injuries in Australian football I'm not surprised by Jabari's hesitation. Lots of posters here see that he can run and jump and look explosive and think that he's not affected by the injury anymore. Particularly in big dudes the agility particularly in traffic just isn't there in the season immediately post surgery. He's going to be a completely different dude next season when he's got his confidence in his body back.

[MilHammer]

With Giannis you can see he needs to add a couple of feet to his comfortable range for non corner threes. Jabari's form allows for effortless threes. So many dudes are going to come off the ledge when he's nailing them like he did in that scrimmage. I think his form actually looks more suited to longer shots if anything.

It's just frustrating because you know he has the tools to do everything we need him to, but we just gotta be patient with it. He can clearly shoot, he just needs game practice, more reps in the summer, and no Kidd over his shoulder telling him not to shoot them. And every time he handles the ball it looks like a guy who once had nasty handles but is just too damn rusty. I honestly think he's gonna explode next year, like Simeon Jabari in the NBA. Having an entire offseason where he can focus exclusively on his game and tightening up all his skills is gonna be a game changer for him and this team.

From seeing a ton of guys recover from ACL injuries in Australian football I'm not surprised by Jabari's hesitation. Lots of posters here see that he can run and jump and look explosive and think that he's not affected by the injury anymore. Particularly in big dudes the agility particularly in traffic just isn't there in the season immediately post surgery. He's going to be a completely different dude next season when he's got his confidence in his body back.

I totally agree with this. It's not like the skillset isn't there, he's already shown that he can shoot, and that he has the moves and handle to get separation. If anything, I feel like he's most hesitant to really put the shakes on people, and throw his weight into his movement, since he's scared of his leg giving out on a non-contact play, like it did last year. As soon as he feels 100% and comfortable in his own body again, it will all come back to him.

[ReasonablySober]

I love how Middleton's being used. Let him be a primary facilitator and take his lumps now. It doesn't matter if he turns it over nine times.

[Chapter29]

And perhaps you good competent players.

Last I checked Prunty is still a coach for us and likely still has a ton of input.

I question if Punty has little to any input during a game as to who Kidd subs in/subs out, along with most plays called. That's what a head coach does during a game. They don't keep checking in with the assistants before deciding who to take out, who to put in, how long to sit a certain player, and/or how long to keep certain players in the game.

A young inexperienced coach like Kidd certainly does lean on his more experienced assistants. He'd be foolish not too. Heck his first year, his assistants did a ton of the work.

[emunney]

With Giannis you can see he needs to add a couple of feet to his comfortable range for non corner threes. Jabari's form allows for effortless threes. So many dudes are going to come off the ledge when he's nailing them like he did in that scrimmage. I think his form actually looks more suited to longer shots if anything.

It's just frustrating because you know he has the tools to do everything we need him to, but we just gotta be patient with it. He can clearly shoot, he just needs game practice, more reps in the summer, and no Kidd over his shoulder telling him not to shoot them. And every time he handles the ball it looks like a guy who once had nasty handles but is just too damn rusty. I honestly think he's gonna explode next year, like Simeon Jabari in the NBA. Having an entire offseason where he can focus exclusively on his game and tightening up all his skills is gonna be a game changer for him and this team.

From seeing a ton of guys recover from ACL injuries in Australian football I'm not surprised by Jabari's hesitation. Lots of posters here see that he can run and jump and look explosive and think that he's not affected by the injury anymore. Particularly in big dudes the agility particularly in traffic just isn't there in the season immediately post surgery. He's going to be a completely different dude next season when he's got his confidence in his body back.

There are no guarantees about guys coming all the way back, but everything I can see him going through feels so familiar to me. He's coming along fine. The most important stuff is that he's moving forward and he's healthy. He needs minutes more than anybody else on the team, because the stuff he's trying to improve on can't be simulated in any other way. He needs to be comfortable taking contact with his left foot on the ground and pushing back with it. It's easier to jump because you learn how to fall pretty quickly. Playing to contact is the hardest thing. Can't imagine how tough it is on that level of competition.

Of course he can continue to work on his skills, too, but timing and the mental recovery are the big bottleneck now, and that's exactly what I would expect. I can't say I'm not concerned, because some guys never get past that, but there are no red flags that I've seen. He's moving great.