Dinan: player development key this year for ticket sales in 2017

[JEIS]

The front office would be the ones with fragile egos, as I said, because writing this off as another year of development covers up for their failures.

From my perspective, the FO is even more on the hot seat. You lose Middleton and the whole season is lost to development? It's an admission that this team IS a fragile construction and not very well assembled. Virtually all teams lose some players for parts of the season, but the good ones are able to adapt and thrive. Dinan's comments indicate that at least he doesn't see this as a good team - yet.

I think most of us saw how screwed we were when we lost Middleton. Our team is too young to lose a player of Kris' Calibre... What we didn't expect was tank from the get go. Putting Moose, Jabari, Beas, Vaughn rotations on the floor for extended periods of time...looked pretty tanky.

[Bernman]

I think most of us saw how screwed we were when we lost Middleton. Our team is too young to lose a player of Kris' Calibre... What we didn't expect was tank from the get go. Putting Moose, Jabari, Beas, Vaughn rotations on the floor for extended periods of time...looked pretty tanky.

But what we're saying is if roster construction was done properly, we shouldn't have been screwed for losing our 3rd greatest talent. Injuries and youth are the go to cop outs for this organization for the last 15 years. They're almost always too young and/or too injured. The reality is often we're not that young or that injured, and that's the case right now with 1 injury and vets like Monroe, Della, Beasley, Terry, Snell, Teletovic, Plumlee, Henson, and Novak. Even Giannis, Jabari, and Brogdon should be most of the way into their development now. Giannis is in his 4th year, Jabari 3rd year, and Brogdon is about to be 24. Injuries and youth aren't excuses to anyone who is paying attention, therefore it shouldn't have any benefit practically with the hardcore fan. The casual fan is just going to come around when you're winning. So making a statement like that is just a hail mary and protection of their egos.

[JEIS]

I think most of us saw how screwed we were when we lost Middleton. Our team is too young to lose a player of Kris' Calibre... What we didn't expect was tank from the get go. Putting Moose, Jabari, Beas, Vaughn rotations on the floor for extended periods of time...looked pretty tanky.

But what we're saying is if roster construction was done properly, we shouldn't have been screwed for losing our 3rd greatest talent. Injuries and youth are the go to cop outs for this organization for the last 15 years. They're almost always too young and/or too injured. The reality is often we're not that young or that injured, and that's the case right now with 1 injury and vets like Monroe, Della, Beasley, Terry, Snell, Teletovic, Plumlee, Henson, and Novak. Even Giannis, Jabari, and Brogdon should be most now. Giannis is in his 4th year, Jabari 3rd year, and Brogdon is about to be 24. Injuries and youth aren't excuses to anyone who is paying attention, therefore it shouldn't have any benefit practically with the hardcore fan. The casual fan is just going to come around when you're winning. So making a statement like that is just a hail mary and protection of their egos.

I get what you are saying and you make a lot of valid points. Middleton is not even an all-star, but he was our most consistent offensive player. A good team should be built to withstand an injury and not have an entire season "wasted"(trying to make the playoffs?). I agree with you.

Nobody on this team likely thinks they are making it to the finals this year. From owners on down.

I don't think we are tanking in the way where we are playing our worst players, we are just trying to develop our youth. Letting Giannis, Jabari, Vaughn, Thon, Brogdon make thier mistakes. They will bust their butts, they won't tank and purposely miss shots, but Kidd will likely tinker with rotations, see what works, what doesn't... maybe implement different schemes.

Injuries and youth are the only good excuses... Our team is crappy, we have a lot of young talent that is beginning to blossom, however our team is extremely flawed. Scheme, our offense, our defense, execution, communication between players and coaches. Delly is the best player for this young team. He is getting everyone on the same page.

I would rather the team say, we know we are !%#$ed. We are going to get a very good pick/player via draft. We are not going to mortgage the future to just to make it to the playoffs this year, because even if they made it, the wouldn't contend for a championship. We would all be sick if after it is all said and done, we don't ever get to a championship because we needed to bust our @$$ and make it to the playoffs without Middleton. That is the crap we use to do. This feels different, different goals. The payoff is likely two to three years down the road. I know most of us want to win and we get impatient. I get it. This is when Giannis, Jabari, Middleton, Thon, Vaughn, Telly, Delly, high draft pick, other draft pick... it will take time for the team to gel. They need to get this core time to play together.

[raferfenix]

We were looking real thin in the backcourt even before Middleton went down.

If 2/3 of Snell, Brogdon and Vaughn become rotation players we have a bit of breathing room. But it's also totally possible our guard rotation is one of the very worst in the league this season.

And if we are considering Giannis a guard then think about whoever is guarding the other team's small guys.

[sdn40]

The part that really bothers me is that if we wait too much longer to get our schit together, there will be a lot of people in Giannis' ear telling him he is wasting his time here. And as he becomes more acclimated to the American way, he will start to listen, and I can't blame him. If we crap the bed and he walks - that'll be just about all I could stand. Move them to Seattle

[pifhluk23]

Vegas thought Middleton was worth 3.5 wins fwiw. Dropped from 39 to 36.5 when he got injured.

[Bernman]

Vegas thought Middleton was worth 3.5 wins fwiw. Dropped from 39 to 36.5 when he got injured.

That's 2.5, actually.

Yeah, that shouldn't bury us. I think upper 40's was a reasonable expectation with solid moves this offseason, normal development, and if Middleton doesn't get injured. So then we should have dropped into the mid 40's.

The Pelicans' match was better, but it was by far our best this season. Overall they've looked like a low 30's type team, so they would have dropped from 35. That's about 13 off from where they should be at this point. It's a huge gap.

We were .500 2 seasons ago, then made a big fa signing, two mid-level ones this offseason, retained guys, and got Jabari healthy. We should expect results even if one thinks they overachieved 2 seasons ago. A 7-game improvement in 2 seasons is far from too lofty of a bar.

They practically threw away assets, didn't sell high/buy low instead did the opposite, made a couple questionable first rounders, signings, paid little attention to fit, etc.; and now they want to delay heat for it.

This season isn't over yet, and maybe we see a turnaround, but unlike others I don't like the lack of confidence, even if it's warranted at this point. It's more what that lack of confidence reflects.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

a team president who recently publicly trashed the city from him New York office.

I'm nitpicking here because most of your post is spot on. As far as Feigin though, he didn't say anything that I haven't heard from a thousand other people that are Milwaukee natives...and he was in Madison when he said it.

And I've seen him with his family walking around the east side. I'm almost positive he lives within city limits which is totally different than someone that lives in mequon or left his family in New York.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

a team president who recently publicly trashed the city from him New York office.

I'm nitpicking here because most of your post is spot on. As far as Feigin though, he didn't say anything that I haven't heard from a thousand other people that are Milwaukee natives...and he was in Madison when he said it.

I stand corrected on the New York thing. If he said it in Madison I was wrong.

My point with that is he wasn't talking like before they got their money though. Then the people of Wisconsin were amazing - government cuts check - most racist place ever. For me it not about racism or not racism anyway it's about billionaires **** on people they proclaimed to love after they took their tax money. And I brought it up I this thread only because it shows a pattern of crappy management, in that case from a PR standpoint.

If he didn't care about the city why did he make the comment? He had no incentive to be brutally honest about a city he lives and works in unless he wants to make it better. I'm sorry some people got their panties in a bunch but we are a really segragated city which breeds racism. It was a dumb thing to say from a pr standpoint but I have no idea how you take an honest comment like that as someone turning his back on a city.

[Buckrageous]

I'm nitpicking here because most of your post is spot on. As far as Feigin though, he didn't say anything that I haven't heard from a thousand other people that are Milwaukee natives...and he was in Madison when he said it.

I stand corrected on the New York thing. If he said it in Madison I was wrong.

My point with that is he wasn't talking like before they got their money though. Then the people of Wisconsin were amazing - government cuts check - most racist place ever. For me it not about racism or not racism anyway it's about billionaires **** on people they proclaimed to love after they took their tax money. And I brought it up I this thread only because it shows a pattern of crappy management, in that case from a PR standpoint.

If he didn't care about the city why did he make the comment? He had no incentive to be brutally honest about a city he lives and works in unless he wants to make it better. I'm sorry some people got their panties in a bunch but we are a really segragated city which breeds racism. It was a dumb thing to say from a pr standpoint but I have no idea how you take an honest comment like that as someone turning his back on a city.

Was he making the city better with his brutal honesty before they got the arena money?

[paulpressey25]

We were .500 2 seasons ago, then made a big fa signing, two mid-level ones this offseason, retained guys, and got Jabari healthy. We should expect results even if one thinks they overachieved 2 seasons ago. A 7-game improvement in 2 seasons is far from too lofty of a bar.

Yeah, if the local media and fanbase falls for the "We're going to suck and pitch the season aside obviously because we lost Khris Middleton" line then there is no hope for anyone to bring accountability here.

But I don't think internally all three of those guys are that stupid. If you got all three in the room to talk honestly they'd all say it's been a **** the last three years. I'm not sure though that they'd all agree as to the reasons why.

[JEIS]

Vegas thought Middleton was worth 3.5 wins fwiw. Dropped from 39 to 36.5 when he got injured.

That's 2.5, actually.

Yeah, that shouldn't bury us. I think upper 40's was a reasonable expectation with solid moves this offseason, normal development, and if Middleton doesn't get injured. So then we should have dropped into the mid 40's.

The Pelicans' match was better, but it was by far our best this season. Overall they've looked like a low 30's type team, so they would have dropped from 35. That's about 13 off from where they should be at this point. It's a huge gap.

We were .500 2 seasons ago, then made a big fa signing, two mid-level ones this offseason, retained guys, and got Jabari healthy. We should expect results even if one thinks they overachieved 2 seasons ago. A 7-game improvement in 2 seasons is far from too lofty of a bar.

They practically threw away assets, didn't sell high/buy low instead did the opposite, made a couple questionable first rounders, signings, paid little attention to fit, etc.; and now they want to delay heat for it.

This season isn't over yet, and maybe we see a turnaround, but unlike others I don't like the lack of confidence, even if it's warranted at this point. It's more what that lack of confidence reflects.

Two years ago we were winning with our vets, but that actually may have set us back even further. Just think if we had a top 4 pick in the 2015 draft. Not saying they didn't gain valuable experience being there, but long term it may have stopped us from getting a player that would be very impactful on our team currently.
I think the lack of confidence is them just looking at things realistically. We sucked last year with Giannis, Jabari, and Midds being healthy.... you lose Midds you are not likely to set the world on fire... Hell, maybe Giannis goes ape $#@% and carries this team on his back, Jabari starts to get it and become the duo we think they can be, Telly becomes a lights out sharp shooter, Delly is the glue that keeps this team bandaged together.. Monroe keeps busting his butt, Plumlee turns back into Giannis' go to dunk machine, Vaughn turns into a legit player... all this could happen and they could be fighting for a playoff spot. Who knows... They have to play the games.

The front office made some pretty bad moves. MCW, Monroe, Vasquez, trading second round picks, some poor extensions sanders, Henson, Plumlee, we gave up Zaza and Dudley for the hell of it. I am not saying let them off the hook for anything above. They screwed up... They are/trying to fix some of their screw ups... Sanders, MCW, trying to get rid of Monroe, not re-signing trashquez. Still they were bad moves setting this team back.

I am all for a tank season. That is our best option at getting another star player on our team while keeping them off of another team. This season doesn't matter. Another player combined with Giannis, Jabari, Kris, Thon will help with our chances at winning a championship... and will prevent us from possibly losing a championship if one of our big three does go down.

I really think it is bold Kidd making a lineup putting out all your players who suck on Defense and force them to play D. Making them accountable, or look stupid for not busting their butts. Sink or swim.

It does suck not having hope for your team 4 games into the season as well... I get it.

[Pachinko_]

I don't like the idea of tanking... a team that gets used to losing takes forever to learn to win, regardless what you pull out of the draft hat. Years.

And getting a top pick is not a guarantee you're getting a great player, much less a player that will help you from day 1, or even year 1. I'd rather take our chances and try to unearth the next Kawhi/Manu/Draymond with a low or low-ish pick while the team has already started to win.

[trwi7]

I don't like the idea of tanking... a team that gets used to losing takes forever to learn to win, regardless what you pull out of the draft hat. Years.

San Antonio tanked for Duncan when Robinson was out for the season. They immediately started winning. Seattle/OKC drafted Durant and Westbrook and were winning within a couple of years.

You can win pretty quickly as long as you draft well and don't have complete idiots filling in the roster around them.

[Pachinko_]

I don't like the idea of tanking... a team that gets used to losing takes forever to learn to win, regardless what you pull out of the draft hat. Years.

San Antonio tanked for Duncan when Robinson was out for the season. They immediately started winning. Seattle/OKC drafted Durant and Westbrook and were winning within a couple of years.

You can win pretty quickly as long as you draft well and don't have complete idiots filling in the roster around them.

Sure, but, how many teams tried to do the same, failed, and got stuck in failed team wasteland for years?

not every team trying to tank gets a #1-2 pick, not every draft contains a future MVP, not every future MVP entering the league has been the obvious #1 pick. Just too many things can go wrong in the process, and if you get this wrong...

[HKPackFan]

To tank or not to tank is that the question?


Some years the #1 Pick is the golden ticket to change the fortunes of a franchise.....Sometimes..not so much.

Big Dog and Bogut were very good players, but are they guys that are worth tanking an entire season?

We accidentally tanked our way to Jabari Parker...And now there's talk about him not being so great and some feel tempted to trade him for another shot at the lotto. Was he worth tanking for an entire season?

I don't know. I do know you want to play some winning basketball at some point or a guy like Giannis will eventually get frustrated and walk away. I was hoping there would be some progress this year, but even this year isn't super important in the grand scheme of things.

We can build around Giannis, but we also have to give him a reason to want to stick around in a few years. We also have to give the paying fans a reason to put their hard earned money into a bucks ticket.

My bro was a season ticket holder forever, he finally decided to not buy tix. I don't blame him, financial stuff comes up, and you wonder.....Do I really want to watch a **** product year after year?

If management has a 4 year plan or whatever it is, that would be great to see them build toward it. But to temporary build something by the seat of their pants, realize it's crap, and then watch the team suffer and repeat the same mistakes, well that's not fair to the paying customer.