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Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari

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Re: RE: Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#341 » by AussieBuck » Thu Dec 1, 2016 10:44 pm

Rockmaninoff wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:I'm not a big fan of these lineup things without somewhere near 1000 minutes but I'm conservative like that. Just too noisy, but given that it is the original topic of the thread:

Jabari without Plumlee or Henson: 174 minutes, 112.6 points per 100 minutes on offense, 108 per 100 on defense.

That's epic offense for those playing at home. Really **** bigs don't suit him I guess. Sample also includes I think 37 minutes without a centre.

Giannis/Jabari/Teletovic is 118/103 but only 44 minutes. Any combination of two of Giannis/Jabari/Monroe work but not all three.

I mean it's all basic stuff really. Can't have more than two guys on court who love scoring at the basket and Henson and Plumlee suck. I'd guess most of the above doesn't change over the course of the season, just need to embrace the obvious need for spacing at C for the minutes that Giannis and Jabari play together if we keep Jabari long term. It's a lot like Miami with Lebron and Wade. It didn't work properly until they ditched the traditional C idea and moved Bosh to spacing C.

The answer to this debate is THON. I **** knew it.

Pretty damn keen to find out. I mean we know he's the type of the player it's just whether he's actually the guy. Moves his feet like a guy who switch onto anyone and that jumper just hits the net so damn sweetly. I'll keep on stabbing at my voodoo dolls until some bigs get injured and we can offload some trash.
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#342 » by Ron Swanson » Thu Dec 1, 2016 10:53 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
Ron Swanson wrote:Yeah, I'm sick of debating it at this point, but I can't stop without saying that this idea of him needing to be a "superstar" in order to justify not selling high on him (if you see these proposals as selling high) is false.

Are Klay Thompson and Kyrie Irving superstars? No. Are they All-Star caliber guys who have been the 2nd and 3rd best players on championship teams despite objectively being paid more than they're worth on "max" contracts? Absolutely.


most of the guys open to a trade don't view him as a klay Thompson, kyrie, or any other perenenial multiple allstar type. do you think id debating this if I thought he was going to be our version of klay? or George? or kyrie? those guys aren't superstars but they aren't Glenn robinson and Michael redd either. theres the stars that step on the floor and help you win no matter who else is out there..... and theres the other kind of star.


And I'd absolutely love to see you even try to make an argument that Kyrie was a better/more impactful player that helped you win based on what they were at age 21:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1=irvinky01&y1=2014&y2=2017&player_id2=parkeja01

Per 36: Kyrie 21/6/3/1 on 53% TS, Jabari 20/6/2/1 on 53% TS.

Both volume scorers, poor defenders, and lack of above-average play-making skills. Wonder if Kyrie ever improved or was destined to just be a defensive sieve and volume scorer. I think you know where I'm going with this.

:dontknow:
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#343 » by DingleJerry » Thu Dec 1, 2016 10:57 pm

I'm actually still not totally convinced on Kyrie. I know he just hit the game winning lucky shot so I guess it's dumb to say. But I really think they could be better off right now with a better defender who could shoot. I grant that he provides good insurance on a LBJ injury and during his rest though. Also, being so young is a plus for him to eventually take more of the reigns back from LBJ as he ages.

I mean, when they were down 3-1 I'm sure everyone would've agreed with that statement. Couple lucky games shouldn't completely change it
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#344 » by yannisk » Thu Dec 1, 2016 10:59 pm

After all this talk I am sure Jabari will score 30 tonight and silence this thread till the next average game
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#345 » by freewhitemoon » Thu Dec 1, 2016 11:03 pm

To be fair, Kyrie's age 21 season was a down year for him - he actually had a better age 20 season. And bad defense at the PG position is way less detrimental than for a SF/PF. Kyrie had a 3.3 BPM versus a -0.9 BPM for Jabari, it's really not close in terms of impact.
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#346 » by Shaffty » Thu Dec 1, 2016 11:24 pm

yannisk wrote:After all this talk I am sure Jabari will score 30 tonight and silence this thread till the next average game


I don't think you are really grasping the problems Jabari presents and why people are worried.
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#347 » by yannisk » Thu Dec 1, 2016 11:29 pm

Shaffty wrote:
yannisk wrote:After all this talk I am sure Jabari will score 30 tonight and silence this thread till the next average game


I don't think you are really grasping the problems Jabari presents and why people are worried.


i am worried myself and not about his scoring
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#348 » by Baddy Chuck » Thu Dec 1, 2016 11:33 pm

freewhitemoon wrote:And bad defense at the PG position is way less detrimental than for a SF/PF

Seriously disagree.
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#349 » by coolhandluke121 » Thu Dec 1, 2016 11:37 pm

M-C-G wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
steger_3434 wrote:CHL is seriously just a hater. When Jabari was putting up great numbers a couple weeks ago he was nowhere to be found. All of a sudden he's struggling again and he's online posting every 5 minutes. Dude, you bring up good points, but you're a hater through and through. I'll criticize Parker when he underperforms and praise him when he plays like I think he should. I never see you praise. Even when you say he does something well, there is always a BUT following it.

You have an agenda, you don't like Parker, never have, never will. At one point I read every one of your posts as I thought you were objective. It's just getting old now.

To the others in this thread, I can understand what people are saying. To me it's a wash and repeat cycle. Would I trade Jabari for a top 5 pick? I could be talked into it. But what happens after 2 years and that guy is playing like a Russel, Okafor, Mudiay, or hell even Wiggins for that matter? We trade that young guy again for another pick? Basketball players are human. You keep trading potential, for younger potential and a guy like Giannis will be a LeBron and leave.

Now no way in hell do I trade Parker for role players like some are suggesting. You can get role players whenever you want. Hell, you really want Bradley that bad trade are lottery protected top 8 pick for him and you probably have him. But that pick is so valuable right? How valuable is it if we already want to ship the number 2 pick out after not even two years of playing in the NBA?


hes been consistent from before the draft and hes stuck to his guns in the little stretches where parker looked like he was breaking out. hes not a hater. its been a consistent position and I respect him for it.


Yes, he has consistently flamed Jabari with "Brandon Jennings I told you so!!!!!!!" when he has bad games, and been quiet as **** when Jabari does well, all while dismissing any improvements or evidence along the way.

Kudos for him talking about he Antwan Jamisons, Joe Smith and Abdur Rahimms of the world as backhanded Jabari comments as well. It's some next generation negging.


Never mentioned Joe Smith but whatever. If anything, Jamison and SAR look like excessively generous comparisons at this point.

Also, I'll post when I damn well feel like it. What a stupid thing to bring up. I've been waiting to have this conversation for years and now that intelligent, mature people are willing to have it you better believe I'm going to participate. I've questioned Jabari plenty of times after good games too and I get the same vitriol so I can't break even either way, and I don't expect to given how long people here tend to stay in denial about players they want to like. And regardless of when I post, it doesn't change the merits of my arguments against Jabari anyway.

Maybe I'm not a Jabari hater. Maybe I'm being objective and you and Steger are just Jabari nut-huggers drinking the Kool-aid. (See how that kind of comment takes a sh*t on the whole conversation and is totally obnoxious? I'm sure you do.)

Maybe I just have higher standards for the kind of commitment the Bucks have made and will continue to make to Jabari when it comes to draft position, contract extension, and opportunity cost. And you damn well better believe those standards include strong evidence that they're a better team when he's playing (what we have so far is the exact opposite) instead of constantly having to question whether we'd be better off with a guy like Delfino or Ersan in their primes. That's not an unreasonable expectation.
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#350 » by coolhandluke121 » Thu Dec 1, 2016 11:48 pm

Baddy Chuck wrote:
freewhitemoon wrote:And bad defense at the PG position is way less detrimental than for a SF/PF

Seriously disagree.


Yeah but that's very tangential to the argument. The Cavs comparison might not be appropriate as it's very rare to surround a superstar with offense-minded stars who are terrible defenders. It's a pretty unusual formula.

In any case, Love and Irving basically didn't even play in the previous finals, so of course having them made the Cavs much better in 2016. That doesn't mean it's a great formula for success to have guys like that in the supporting cast; it just means it's better to have Love or Irving than nobody. The Cavs did still win 2 games in that series with surprise contributions from Thompson, Mozgov, and Dellavedova, so the role players did help them. They just didn't have enough legit NBA guys. We can only imagine whether they would have been better with, say, Bradley and Crowder instead of Irving, but there's no debate that they were better with Irving than being 2 men short. And Love wasn't needed in the finals; they were often better with Lebron at pf. So the Cavs example does fit in the sense that they didn't need the most putrid defender of their big 3 and were actually often better without him.

Lastly didn't we see the Cavs have the best record in the league and Mo make an asg after being shipped to the Cavs in a salary dump? They clearly didn't have enough good players, but the point is that you don't have to invest $20m per season and the opportunity cost of a #1 pick to get a good, efficient secondary scoring threat if that's really all he brings to the table.
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#351 » by FlagsFlyForever » Thu Dec 1, 2016 11:54 pm

emunney wrote:
ElPeregrino wrote:
emunney wrote:Much as it makes me sick, I think Khris is the guy we should be talking about trading (if we can still get anything like what we could have gotten over the summer). It just doesn't seem likely to me that he's going to come back as the same player. Would entertain serious offers for Jabari, but that's a 21 year old on the upswing. He's far from the end of his development.

Why would Middleton not come back as the same player? I'm not a doctor or an expert on injuries by any means, but people have brought up players in other sports who tore their hamstring off the bone and they seem to recover and return to 100% with a high success rate.


I'm going to need more than that. Everything I've read suggests likely degradation.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187705681200148X

In a series of 62 consecutive repairs, Wood et al. reported 80% of the patients return to their pre-injury level of sports at 6 months post-surgery. The author advocated for an early repair as delayed surgical treatment was associated with a more challenging procedure, an increased risk of sciatic nerve injury and reduced postoperative hamstring strength and endurance. Acute surgical repairs, lead to a mean postoperative hamstring strength and endurance of 84% and 89% respectively compared to that of the controlateral leg.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23805425

Each of the ruptures was managed with surgical fixation within 10 days of injury. All of the players reported full return of strength and attempted to resume play at the beginning of the following season, with 9 of the 10 actually returning to play. However, despite having no limitations related to the surgical repair, only 5 of the 10 athletes played in more than 1 game. Most NFL players who undergo acute surgical repair of complete proximal hamstring ruptures are able to RTP, but results are mixed regarding long-term participation. This finding may indicate that this injury is a marker for elite-level physical deterioration.

Thanks for the info. I'm not doubting you, I'm just trying to educate myself. The first quote says Middleton only has an 80% chance to return at 100% after 6 months. What about beyond 6 months? Am I wrong to assume that percentage would increase after 12 or 18 months? It also says the injuryed leg is 84-89% the strength and endurance of the uninjured leg. Could this not be because the athletes are limited in exercising that leg while recovering and must favor the healthy leg, thus strengthening it? The quote also states success rate increases for patients who don't delay surgery and Middleton had his surgery 9 days after suffering his injury so that should improve his odds.


The second quote says 9 out of 10 NFL players returned from the injury, but longterm results are mixed. That is scary, but I'd be curious of the level of these players pre-injury and also what the return rate of other injuries are because NFL players only average a 3 year career as it is. It may not be fair to blame the injury for the players not having long-term success.


Prince12 said "this injury happens semi-regularly in Australian football. If the surgery was successful then long term I'm not that concerned." Anecdotal, but it's already more than I know about this injury so I do defer to others with more knowledge than me.

This is a very rare injury and there are not many comparables of a star player around Middleton's age suffering this injury. The only one I found was Samir Nasri (soccer) who just returned from the injury this year and seems to be 100%.
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#352 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Fri Dec 2, 2016 12:05 am

Ron Swanson wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
Ron Swanson wrote:Yeah, I'm sick of debating it at this point, but I can't stop without saying that this idea of him needing to be a "superstar" in order to justify not selling high on him (if you see these proposals as selling high) is false.

Are Klay Thompson and Kyrie Irving superstars? No. Are they All-Star caliber guys who have been the 2nd and 3rd best players on championship teams despite objectively being paid more than they're worth on "max" contracts? Absolutely.


most of the guys open to a trade don't view him as a klay Thompson, kyrie, or any other perenenial multiple allstar type. do you think id debating this if I thought he was going to be our version of klay? or George? or kyrie? those guys aren't superstars but they aren't Glenn robinson and Michael redd either. theres the stars that step on the floor and help you win no matter who else is out there..... and theres the other kind of star.


And I'd absolutely love to see you even try to make an argument that Kyrie was a better/more impactful player that helped you win based on what they were at age 21:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1=irvinky01&y1=2014&y2=2017&player_id2=parkeja01

Per 36: Kyrie 21/6/3/1 on 53% TS, Jabari 20/6/2/1 on 53% TS.

Both volume scorers, poor defenders, and lack of above-average play-making skills. Wonder if Kyrie ever improved or was destined to just be a defensive sieve and volume scorer. I think you know where I'm going with this.

:dontknow:


if the cavs were my team and got noticeably worse with kyrie on the floor id listen to offers with him too.
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#353 » by bizarro » Fri Dec 2, 2016 12:09 am

emunney wrote:
Ron Swanson wrote:
Max Green wrote:You would think Parker is one of the worst players in the league after reading this thread. He's 21 averaging 20.5/6.6/2.4 at 1.2 steals a game per36, 117 games into his career while still improving. He's the type of young talent that you would pray a GM was dumb enough to make available if he was on another team. The whole Boston rumor started because of Brad Steven's praising his talent specifically and Bill Simmons throwing out trade ideas try and get him in a Celtics uniform.


This is actually a pretty relevant statement. The overall mood on this board when I first starting posting back in 2013 was that high picks and high upside, blue-chip prospects were the only way to eventually carry us out of the dregs of the NBA cellar and back into respectability. We were constantly debating which overlooked young players with All-Star upside that we could poach from other teams if made available.

The idea of signing role-players like Jeff Teague and Kyle Korver were frowned upon as moves that wouldn't have moved the needle, yet those are the kinds of players that now seem coveted and worth punting on elite potential for (Bradley, Crowder). We needed high picks, star prospects, and we needed to be patient with them. We debated endlessly about how you can't just have one star and expect to win a championship. With the way Jabari is being dissected right now, the irony is palpable, and also confusing.


I don't even like wading into this because I don't want to trade Jabari, but this really is an unnecessary simplification. The people who want to trade him have been pretty clear and specific about why they don't think he's going to work out and why they think it'd be beneficial to move him. I don't see many people saying trade him for just Crowder, and in a strong draft, it's hard to argue that getting a guy who is *clearly* better than Jabari now (Crowder) plus a top 5 pick (elite potential) is the type of thing anybody should find confusing or ironic.

What I always come back to with these kinds of arguments is that it's always, always, always about perception and how we all differently view and project the individual players we're talking about. I think Jabari will eventually be a good enough offensive player that he'll be able to afford to be bad defensively. I think he's going to be a *much better* offensive player than Big Dog, mainly because I think he's going to be a prolific 3 point shooter who doesn't turn the ball over. A lot of people agree with me on this and a lot of people don't. In spite of that belief and the disagreements, I still would be willing to entertain any ideas that would help the team make more sense around the one guy we've got who is truly irreplaceable. And then again, you're running up against the same stuff -- my ideas of which players might bring us closer to that are the result of my thoughts about those guys, which stand to be somewhat different from anyone else's. So we talk about it and try to learn new ways to think about things and get better.


THIS^

There's a sang in the Zen Buddhist tradition: "Belief is a good thing until you believe it."

This applies here. Conversing with others passionately and respectfully while not hopelessly clinging to a belief is helpful. It allows you to actually think about things in new ways. It also helps not take oneself so damn seriously.

I for one, am reminded of patience and age and a lost rookie year in a young player who has improved measurably since the mid-point of last year. I've been highly skeptical of Jabari since his pre-draft days because of what I witnessed his Freshman season and because I was utterly infatuated with Embiid (and still am) - not to mention, I love defensive prowess. I can definitely admit to the great progress I see in his game and i am certainly not looking for reasons to dump a young and ascending player. And, at the end of the day, the only Buck who is untouchable is Giannis in my eyes. You build around him in the best way possible. If that means trading Jabari for a great package that fits this bill, I think the Bucks would be foolish to not seriously consider it.
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#354 » by Ron Swanson » Fri Dec 2, 2016 12:09 am

freewhitemoon wrote:And bad defense at the PG position is way less detrimental than for a SF/PF.


I don't really see how there's anything to support this.
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#355 » by UWM_Brew_Buck » Fri Dec 2, 2016 12:13 am

No way I do that Boston deal, completely different scenario if it was a guaranteed top 3 pick but it is obviously not. I am still high on Jabari and I wouldn't consider breaking him into pieces this early.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#356 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Fri Dec 2, 2016 12:20 am

RRyder823 wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
RRyder823 wrote:I thought it reached that level when Brain said all he'd need in a trade for Jabari would be a rotational starting player, and literally nothing else, and GoS agreed. I was wrong

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I didn't agree with that lmao

Lol sure u didn't


ive been very clear. but I will repeat in response...

the original proposal by our moderator here was parker for crowder/Bradley/brk pick
id be all over that but its unrealistic as hell

then guys suggested parker for either of those guys and the pick
id probably do that put would prefer to put that in my back pocket and maybe pull the trigger around the deadline or draft if nothing changes

then one guy said parker for a solid rotational player
I'm assuming he meant a guy like bradley or crowder even up. I would not do that and I never agreed with that guy

and then maybe CHL or somebody else suggested Jabari for just the brklyn pick
I wouldn't do that either

so quit it with the bitch move comebacker to make your points trying to clown me. I'm not doing that with you....I don't want you to do it with me.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#357 » by coolhandluke121 » Fri Dec 2, 2016 12:25 am

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
RRyder823 wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
I didn't agree with that lmao

Lol sure u didn't


ive been very clear. but I will repeat in response...

the original proposal by our moderator here was parker for crowder/Bradley/brk pick
id be all over that but its unrealistic as hell

then guys suggested parker for either of those guys and the pick
id probably do that put would prefer to put that in my back pocket and maybe pull the trigger around the deadline or draft if nothing changes

then one guy said parker for a solid rotational player
I'm assuming he meant a guy like bradley or crowder even up. I would not do that and I never agreed with that guy

and then maybe CHL or somebody else suggested Jabari for just the brklyn pick
I wouldn't do that either

so quit it with the bitch move comebacker to make your points trying to clown me. I'm not doing that with you....I don't want you to do it with me.


That dude gets so obnoxious in these conversations.

ETA: BTW my pick proposal includes Plumlee, either Mirza or Henson, and 3 expiring deals from Boston. That's better than just the pick. If Monroe opts out, the Bucks would have some cap space to work with. I think Giannis and Khris are enough of a draw to help the Bucks have one of their best free agency summers ever but they blew their wad too soon.
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Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#358 » by Baddy Chuck » Fri Dec 2, 2016 12:29 am

coolhandluke121 wrote:Yeah but that's very tangential to the argument. The Cavs comparison might not be appropriate as it's very rare to surround a superstar with offense-minded stars who are terrible defenders. It's a pretty unusual formula.

Gasol, Parker and Terry all stick out to me as offensive minded pretty terrible defenders who all played important roles off of superstars on championship teams.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#359 » by RRyder823 » Fri Dec 2, 2016 12:33 am

coolhandluke121 wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
RRyder823 wrote:Lol sure u didn't


ive been very clear. but I will repeat in response...

the original proposal by our moderator here was parker for crowder/Bradley/brk pick
id be all over that but its unrealistic as hell

then guys suggested parker for either of those guys and the pick
id probably do that put would prefer to put that in my back pocket and maybe pull the trigger around the deadline or draft if nothing changes

then one guy said parker for a solid rotational player
I'm assuming he meant a guy like bradley or crowder even up. I would not do that and I never agreed with that guy

and then maybe CHL or somebody else suggested Jabari for just the brklyn pick
I wouldn't do that either

so quit it with the bitch move comebacker to make your points trying to clown me. I'm not doing that with you....I don't want you to do it with me.


That dude gets so obnoxious in these conversations.


Yep. Because when your reply and to a post and type that you agree that doesn't mean that you actually agree. But yeah. I'm the obnoxious one on a board where last year everyone preached patience with the core but now people want to trade a piece of said core for spare parts before he's even finished 2 seasons worth of games because in their minds they allready have decided how good he'll be despite him improving pretty much every month he's played

And quit the whole "nobodies saying trade him for pennies on the dollar" BS. There have been too many that have thrown out deals that have been exactly that for you guys to say that.

But by all means continue on

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari 

Post#360 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Fri Dec 2, 2016 12:40 am

coolhandluke121 wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
RRyder823 wrote:Lol sure u didn't


ive been very clear. but I will repeat in response...

the original proposal by our moderator here was parker for crowder/Bradley/brk pick
id be all over that but its unrealistic as hell

then guys suggested parker for either of those guys and the pick
id probably do that put would prefer to put that in my back pocket and maybe pull the trigger around the deadline or draft if nothing changes

then one guy said parker for a solid rotational player
I'm assuming he meant a guy like bradley or crowder even up. I would not do that and I never agreed with that guy

and then maybe CHL or somebody else suggested Jabari for just the brklyn pick
I wouldn't do that either

so quit it with the bitch move comebacker to make your points trying to clown me. I'm not doing that with you....I don't want you to do it with me.


That dude gets so obnoxious in these conversations.

ETA: BTW my pick proposal includes Plumlee, either Mirza or Henson, and 3 expiring deals from Boston. That's better than just the pick. If Monroe opts out, the Bucks would have some cap space to work with. I think Giannis and Khris are enough of a draw to help the Bucks have one of their best free agency summers ever but they blew their wad too soon.


personally id need a guaranteed 3rd dude coming back our way or id be too scared to pull the trigger myself. the pick and freed up cash needs to be icing for me..... but not the prize.

my theory is right now with guys like Jabari, middleton, crowder, and Bradley that its hard to even pick out the guy who has the most impact or the least. I would say Jabari has the most upside even if its in a way modern teams don't value it all that much.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&hint=Khris+Middleton&player_id1_select=Khris+Middleton&y1=2016&player_id1=middlkh01&hint=Jabari+Parker&player_id2_select=Jabari+Parker&y2=2017&player_id2=parkeja01&hint=Avery+Bradley&player_id3_select=Avery+Bradley&y3=2017&player_id3=bradlav01&hint=Jae+Crowder&player_id4_select=Jae+Crowder&y4=2017&player_id4=crowdja01

so anyway.... that's where I'm at...... well that and I'm glad that our side(the side open to discussion of a move)..... isn't discussing this like our wives do when we tell them they don't need that really cute dress they think they cant live without.

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