Giannis +/- Player Pairs, w/ and w/out Jabari

[H2tObes]

Lol sure u didn't

ive been very clear. but I will repeat in response...

the original proposal by our moderator here was parker for crowder/Bradley/brk pick
id be all over that but its unrealistic as hell

then guys suggested parker for either of those guys and the pick
id probably do that put would prefer to put that in my back pocket and maybe pull the trigger around the deadline or draft if nothing changes

then one guy said parker for a solid rotational player
I'm assuming he meant a guy like bradley or crowder even up. I would not do that and I never agreed with that guy

and then maybe CHL or somebody else suggested Jabari for just the brklyn pick
I wouldn't do that either

so quit it with the bitch move comebacker to make your points trying to clown me. I'm not doing that with you....I don't want you to do it with me.

That dude gets so obnoxious in these conversations.

ETA: BTW my pick proposal includes Plumlee, either Mirza or Henson, and 3 expiring deals from Boston. That's better than just the pick. If Monroe opts out, the Bucks would have some cap space to work with. I think Giannis and Khris are enough of a draw to help the Bucks have one of their best free agency summers ever but they blew their wad too soon.

Careful about assuming Khris comes back 100%

[mattg]

And bad defense at the PG position is way less detrimental than for a SF/PF.

I don't really see how there's anything to support this.

There isn't. You can legitimately build a defense around PG defense and ball pressure, ask brad Stevens about that for example. Havoc on ball can set the table for the rest of your scheme just as much as having a dominant shot blocker in the paint. However it's just harder to find guys who are truly disruptive PG defenders who can play anything beyond spot minutes at that effort level.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

And quit the whole "nobodies saying trade him for pennies on the dollar" BS. There have been too many that have thrown out deals that have been exactly that for you guys to say that.

well then quote these deals and respond instead of this other crap youre doing

[coolhandluke121]

Yeah but that's very tangential to the argument. The Cavs comparison might not be appropriate as it's very rare to surround a superstar with offense-minded stars who are terrible defenders. It's a pretty unusual formula.

Gasol, Parker and Terry all stick out to me as offensive minded pretty terrible defenders who all played important roles off of superstars on championship teams.

Their teams needed them and I think the Bucks need a 20 ppg threat too. I just think Khris is enough in that regard and they'd be better off with better all-around players and glue guys up and down the roster.

Those teams also took care of their other needs. If any of them also had Khris, for example, but had gaping holes in some other position, they would be wise to consider trading one of their scorers for more help. But they really didn't have other gaping holes precisely because they allocated their resources more judiciously instead of having too many scorers.

It's telling that the Mavs and LAL are both on that list because there were times in the same decade that they both had more scorers (Glen Rice with LAL, Walker/Finley/Jamison with the Mavs) but were better after moving on from guys like that. And I don't know about Tony Parker being on there. He was a decent all-around player at his peak, not just a scorer. Gasol was a lot more versatile than Jabari as well.

[RRyder823]

And quit the whole "nobodies saying trade him for pennies on the dollar" BS. There have been too many that have thrown out deals that have been exactly that for you guys to say that.

well then quote these deals and respond instead of this other crap youre doing

Well there is the go to rotational starter so your allready at a point where "nobody" doesn't apply.

There's the using him to dump salary trades.

And while not "pennies" there's every single Boston trade that doesn't include all 3 of Bradley, Crowder and the Nets pick and even that isn't that close to the overpay people are saying that they'd trade Jabari for as that pick is the most overrated asset in the league right now. Jabari just has more value then 2 out of the 3.

Now the value hasn't been bad on all of these but acting like nobody has thrown out just horrible value for fit trades is disingenuous.

The real problem with this thread is tou guys have a set perception on what Jabari will be. And there's little to nothing that will take you off that. The rest of us are simply saying give the kid a little freaking time unless a legit star is comming back and nothing suggested is that outside of a few mentions of Boogie that got glossed over



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[Baddy Chuck]

Yeah but that's very tangential to the argument. The Cavs comparison might not be appropriate as it's very rare to surround a superstar with offense-minded stars who are terrible defenders. It's a pretty unusual formula.

Gasol, Parker and Terry all stick out to me as offensive minded pretty terrible defenders who all played important roles off of superstars on championship teams.

Their teams needed them and I think the Bucks need a 20 ppg threat too. I just think Khris is enough in that regard and they'd be better off with better all-around players and glue guys up and down the roster.

Those teams also took care of their other needs. If any of them also had Khris, for example, but had gaping holes in some other position, they would be wise to consider trading one of their scorers for more help. But they really didn't have other gaping holes precisely because they allocated their resources more judiciously instead of having too many scorers.

It's telling that the Mavs and LAL are both on that list because there were times in the same decade that they both had more scorers (Glen Rice with LAL, Walker/Finley/Jamison with the Mavs) but were better after moving on from guys like that. And I don't know about Tony Parker being on there. He was a decent all-around player at his peak, not just a scorer. Gasol was a lot more versatile than Jabari as well.

Meh, this is pretty much devolving back into the "I don't think Jabari is very good arguments", not too interested in getting into that.

I think obviously teams would love to all be the Golden State Warriors and have super talents on both sides of the ball off their superstar but personally, I'm not buying that the "offensive minded stars" thing is an unusual formula. Those ones I pointed out you can argue semantics but they were all that, though they also had guys like Kidd, Odom etc to fill that "all around" role as well. Teams like the Kidd Net's had VC to go with the Richard Jefferson, those Howard Orlando teams had Rashard Lewis to go with the Hedo Turkoglu. I think you'd find tons more teams to make arguments if you went down the list of title contenders. Good teams have a ton of talent. I think the argument could be made that Jabari could be one of those extremely talented guys that greatly impacts a great team, you would obviously disagree. I think the argument that these guys are unusual on good teams is pretty stupid though.

[coolhandluke121]

I think the argument that these guys are unusual on good teams is pretty stupid though.

Those teams had their supporting cast too though. You can have guys like that if you also have a good supporting cast, but the real question is whether it's more important to have that kind of star power or have a good supporting cast when you don't necessarily have the option of having both. It would be very unusual for a top-heavy roster with a crap supporting cast like the Bucks to be a contender, but I don't think it would be rare for a roster featuring Giannis and Khris and some great glue guys to be a contender - especially if you also get a top-3 pick and nail that to replace the star power you traded away.

I see this team being a lot like the following groups:
Mullin/Hardaway/Richmond
Arenas/Jamison/Hughes
Allen/Robinson/Cassell
Finley/Nash/Dirk
Iverson/Melo/K-Mart
Pierce/Walker/Payton
Carter/RJ/Kidd
Brand/Odom/Maggette/Miller

Again it's just so common for teams like that to be much better on paper than they are on the court. Those were all pretty mediocre teams. Any of those teams could have traded one of their star scorers for better depth and gotten better, and in several cases they did.

[coolhandluke121]

I think the argument that these guys are unusual on good teams is pretty stupid though.

Those teams had their supporting cast too though. You can have guys like that if you also have a good supporting cast, but the real question is whether it's more important to have that kind of star power or have a good supporting cast when you don't necessarily have the option of having both. It would be very unusual for a top-heavy roster with a crap supporting cast like the Bucks to be a contender, but I don't think it would be rare for a roster featuring Giannis and Khris and some great glue guys to be a contender - especially if you also get a top-3 pick and nail that to replace the star power you traded away.

I see this team being a lot like the following groups:
Mullin/Hardaway/Richmond
Arenas/Jamison/Hughes
Allen/Robinson/Cassell
Finley/Nash/Dirk
Iverson/Melo/K-Mart
Pierce/Walker/Payton
Carter/RJ/Kidd
Brand/Odom/Maggette/Miller

Again it's just so common for teams like that to be much better on paper than they are on the court. Those were all pretty mediocre teams. Any of those teams could have traded one of their star scorers for better depth and gotten better, and in several cases they did.

[Baddy Chuck]

Sure, you usually need a top heavy roster on top of a great supporting cast? I'm not disagreeing. Often that "top heavy" part usually includes some very "Jabari" like players. That's all I'm arguing. It's not unusual, as you said it was, at all. I have no interest in getting into anything else regarding if it's better to trade Jabari or anything of the sort.

[Shaffty]

Bucks put the nets away here with a no jabari lineup

[Prez]

Bucks put the nets away here with a no jabari lineup

You mean like when the Bucks put away the defending champs last game on the back of Jabari in a no Giannis lineup?

[Baddy Chuck]

Bucks put the nets away here with a no jabari lineup

And he was in the lineup that ran up the comfortable lead before he was taken out. Was in during the time we went from a tie game to up 9 when he was taken out. We were up 12 at the end of the quarter.

[H2tObes]

Bucks put the nets away here with a no jabari lineup

Please change your avatar sir, it has been revoked

[coolhandluke121]

One thing about this game is it made me wonder how good that BK pick will be. They don't have their own pick for 2 years and they have no incentive to tank. They'll play hard all year and they're reasonably well-coached, whereas a lot of other teams will be resting guys and dicking with lineups once they're out of it.




So maybe I call Boston and ask for BOTH of the Nets' picks.

[Ron Swanson]

If the numbers don't match the eye test, then maybe that tells you something about how reliable those numbers are. I honestly don't know how many "mic drop" games that Jabari has to have before his most vocal detractors finally just shut up and let the kid develop. Just like the game where he dropped 28 and hit 6 threes after people questioned if he'd ever be good shooter, Idk...

[Rockmaninoff]

One thing about this game is it made me wonder how good that BK pick will be. They don't have their own pick for 2 years and they have no incentive to tank. They'll play hard all year and they're reasonably well-coached, whereas a lot of other teams will be resting guys and dicking with lineups once they're out of it.




So maybe I call Boston and ask for BOTH of the Nets' picks.

Yeah, I think if Lin can stay healthy for a stretch, they won't be terrible.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

One thing about this game is it made me wonder how good that BK pick will be. They don't have their own pick for 2 years and they have no incentive to tank. They'll play hard all year and they're reasonably well-coached, whereas a lot of other teams will be resting guys and dicking with lineups once they're out of it.

So maybe I call Boston and ask for BOTH of the Nets' picks.

they've been blown out by 17+ points in 6 out of their last 8. other than that 1 game against the clips where Kilpatrick got stupid hot in the 4th and they came from 13 down in the last qtr they completely stink.

that pick is going to be an amazing pick.... but I still need a guy back in this deal that replaces what Jabari is to this team right at this moment. I'm willing to give up the upside Jabari has but not his current ppg production. give me 16-20 ppg back in a lunch pail guy.....and then you need to sweeten it for me with the lotto pick as well because my guy still has all that sexy what if maybe could even be a supastar appeal that's still on the table with the fans.

[Magic Giannison]

Bucks put the nets away here with a no jabari lineup

You mean like when the Bucks put away the defending champs last game on the back of Jabari in a no Giannis lineup?

Nah he means when Bucks were down by 12 in first, Giannis came in and we did a 9-0 run.

[MiltownHawkeye]

And quit the whole "nobodies saying trade him for pennies on the dollar" BS. There have been too many that have thrown out deals that have been exactly that for you guys to say that.

well then quote these deals and respond instead of this other crap youre doing

1. Jabari for Exum and Favors

2. Jabari, Henson, and Monroe for Jerebko, A. Johnson, and BKN 1st

[M-C-G]

hes been consistent from before the draft and hes stuck to his guns in the little stretches where parker looked like he was breaking out. hes not a hater. its been a consistent position and I respect him for it.

Yes, he has consistently flamed Jabari with "Brandon Jennings I told you so!!!!!!!" when he has bad games, and been quiet as **** when Jabari does well, all while dismissing any improvements or evidence along the way.

Kudos for him talking about he Antwan Jamisons, Joe Smith and Abdur Rahimms of the world as backhanded Jabari comments as well. It's some next generation negging.

Never mentioned Joe Smith but whatever. If anything, Jamison and SAR look like excessively generous comparisons at this point.

Also, I'll post when I damn well feel like it. What a stupid thing to bring up. I've been waiting to have this conversation for years and now that intelligent, mature people are willing to have it you better believe I'm going to participate. I've questioned Jabari plenty of times after good games too and I get the same vitriol so I can't break even either way, and I don't expect to given how long people here tend to stay in denial about players they want to like. And regardless of when I post, it doesn't change the merits of my arguments against Jabari anyway.

Maybe I'm not a Jabari hater. Maybe I'm being objective and you and Steger are just Jabari nut-huggers drinking the Kool-aid. (See how that kind of comment takes a sh*t on the whole conversation and is totally obnoxious? I'm sure you do.)

Maybe I just have higher standards for the kind of commitment the Bucks have made and will continue to make to Jabari when it comes to draft position, contract extension, and opportunity cost. And you damn well better believe those standards include strong evidence that they're a better team when he's playing (what we have so far is the exact opposite) instead of constantly having to question whether we'd be better off with a guy like Delfino or Ersan in their primes. That's not an unreasonable expectation.

Of course post when you want, but at least acknowledge what you are doing. You regularly try to undermine him, regularly try to get a rise out of people with player comparison and regularly ignore improvements in his game and then play the high ground card when that actually gets a rise out of people. You aren't an idiot, you know exactly what you are doing and obviously enjoy the results of the discussion you are getting (which is the whole point of being on realgm isn't it?).

Just drop the holier than thou, I'm just trying to have an earnest discussion crap and immature people can't handle that.