PG Thread (Brooklyn) - Bucks prevent Brooklyn's 10th win.

[BucksPackers]

I think I dislike Telly more than Henson right now. Mostly because Telly is playing and Henson I haven't had to see in the last couple games.

[M-C-G]

I think I dislike Telly more than Henson right now. Mostly because Telly is playing and Henson I haven't had to see in the last couple games.

Moving Telly and Henson for expirings would make for a nice run up to the trade deadline.

[M-C-G]

For the D talk and whether swapping Jabari for Khris will help. I think it will help, but I doubt it will be really all that noticeable because the system is crap no matter who is in there.

So some can use that as a defense of Jabari and how we don't really know if this was all his fault. Which I think is fair, we know he wasn't personally a good defender but we also don't really know if we could have built a good system with him. There's plenty of good Ds in the NBA now and in recent years that include some crappy individual defenders. Long story short, we're long overdue to give up on this system and try something new.

Just give it to the end of the season, just a few more weeks. We'll tank, minimum Sweeney gets fired, maybe Kidd gets let go and we are looking good rolling into next season with another good talent added to the mix.

[buckboy]

Jabari fanboys acting like he wasn't one of the worst defenders in the NBA are funny.

Anyway, yeah, this team sucks. Kidd sucks. I hope we can trade some future money over the next week, but I'm pretty resigned to the Bucks sucking until Kidd is gone.

I went back through the PG thread to see where you are seeing people are suggesting anything about Jabari's defense and the closest I can come up with is people saying Jabari or no Jabari this team's defense is still trash. So yeah, I guess those fanboys are really out of their minds.

Gave up 122 points to the Lakers and 125 points to Nets within the last 6 days.

In this thread bud. Several references to "boy our defense still sucks so it must not have been Jabari derp"

[M-C-G]

Jabari fanboys acting like he wasn't one of the worst defenders in the NBA are funny.

Anyway, yeah, this team sucks. Kidd sucks. I hope we can trade some future money over the next week, but I'm pretty resigned to the Bucks sucking until Kidd is gone.

I went back through the PG thread to see where you are seeing people are suggesting anything about Jabari's defense and the closest I can come up with is people saying Jabari or no Jabari this team's defense is still trash. So yeah, I guess those fanboys are really out of their minds.

Gave up 122 points to the Lakers and 125 points to Nets within the last 6 days.

In this thread bud. Several references to "boy our defense still sucks so it must not have been Jabari derp"

I'm not sure I saw what you saw. But people are absolutely right to criticize the scheme sucking, because even without Jabari our defense does still suck. Think everyone agrees on that.

[crkone]

For the D talk and whether swapping Jabari for Khris will help. I think it will help, but I doubt it will be really all that noticeable because the system is crap no matter who is in there.

So some can use that as a defense of Jabari and how we don't really know if this was all his fault. Which I think is fair, we know he wasn't personally a good defender but we also don't really know if we could have built a good system with him. There's plenty of good Ds in the NBA now and in recent years that include some crappy individual defenders. Long story short, we're long overdue to give up on this system and try something new.

Delly and Snell routinely get beaten off the dribble (unless Delly is guarding a SF/PF), and Monroe and Thon (yet) don't offer help all that much. When your point of attack is weak and the help defense is limited to Giannis who has to come from the weak side of the court, no scheme is going to help. The Bucks also have to hedge with the big to slow down the opposing guards but the centers don't recover in time or take bad angles in recovering. It's like clockwork against the Bucks. Guard beats a Bucks guard with a PnR, Center hedges and takes a terrible position on the recovery, weakside comes to cover the wide open rolling big man, and the cascade of passes around the perimeter to the open man in the opposite corner. It's even easier if Delly or Snell have cement shoes and just get beaten off the dribble and we have to give weakside help to stop the penetration. Lopez was lighting it up until Kidd put Giannis on him at the end of the game since he was the only one who could stop that pick and pop.

[buckboy]

I went back through the PG thread to see where you are seeing people are suggesting anything about Jabari's defense and the closest I can come up with is people saying Jabari or no Jabari this team's defense is still trash. So yeah, I guess those fanboys are really out of their minds.

Gave up 122 points to the Lakers and 125 points to Nets within the last 6 days.

In this thread bud. Several references to "boy our defense still sucks so it must not have been Jabari derp"

I'm not sure I saw what you saw. But people are absolutely right to criticize the scheme sucking, because even without Jabari our defense does still suck. Think everyone agrees on that.

Agree. For sure.

[coolhandluke121]

No doubt the scheme is a huge problem. It looks so mechanical and unnatural. It's okay to try to coach some bad defensive instincts out of players, but it looks like this scheme is designed against the players' correct instincts as well. Like, "I know I should be staying with my guy by the arc, but coach told me to run to the paint and help, so I guess that's what I'll do." Extra split-second of thinking, plus a wide open corner 3. Total barf-o-rama.

That doesn't diminish the importance of personnel though. They've replaced Jabari with Beasley, Mirza, and a very heavy-legged Khris in his 3rd game back from a severe leg injury. The fact that the defense still usually sucks doesn't redeem Parker at all. I think several snarky posts in here are grasping at straws. "Man, the defense sure is better without Jabari!" is a sarcastic counter-argument to something that was never the argument in the first place. If we had replaced him with Crowder, then we'd have a chance to test some of the theories that were proposed. Beasley not so much.

[paulpressey25]

Monroe and Thon (yet) don't offer help all that much.

This to me is the biggest problem. I know you guys hate me for this, but Monroe for Rolo solves this situation IMO.

Would I like someone even better? Sure, but that guy needs to be realistic to acquire.

[coolhandluke121]

Delly and Snell routinely get beaten off the dribble (unless Delly is guarding a SF/PF), and Monroe and Thon (yet) don't offer help all that much. When your point of attack is weak and the help defense is limited to Giannis who has to come from the weak side of the court, no scheme is going to help.

This is an underrated factor. There's a certain type of player who Delly looks great against, but quick guys who are resilient enough to not be bothered by his physicality, strong enough to stay on balance, and able to go in either direction off the dribble, like Dinwiddie, continue to make mincemeat of his in-your-face gimmick defense.

Brogdon isn't all that much better to be honest, and Khris can't keep up in his condition. But I think we also saw that Dinwiddie is just massively underrated as a prospect. He looked like a rich man's Alec Burks or Shaun Livingston. And they did hit 3's at a pretty astounding rate.

[jute2003]

Jabari was a net neutral player this year. Why are people trying to shoehorn their bull agenda into this?

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[crkone]

Monroe and Thon (yet) don't offer help all that much.

This to me is the biggest problem. I know you guys hate me for this, but Monroe for Rolo solves this situation IMO.

Would I like someone even better? Sure, but that guy needs to be realistic to acquire.

A guy who can bust up a PnR and recover with his hands up without picking his own player would bring so much to the floor. I don't know if it's bad teaching by the coaches or just players who don't understand it. I'd try to get a known better defender and a coach who can teach basic defensive principles.

[Ron Swanson]

Thon will start offering more help defense the more minutes you play him. He's already made huge strides from the beginning of the year when he was absolutely clueless on where to be on the floor.

[Beorn]

Diddiwindie has had several injuries so far, but he has some nice attributes for a PG.
Delly hasn't worked especially good so far defensively, but he's below Telly and (Especially) Henson in the departure list. Get rid of Henson, Telly (though I still beleive there's a really useful player there under a different coach) and get anything for Beas and I'm fine.

[buckboy]

Jabari was a net neutral player this year. Why are people trying to shoehorn their bull agenda into this?

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Great question.

[coolhandluke121]

Jabari was a net neutral player this year. Why are people trying to shoehorn their bull agenda into this?

I don't know if you're talking about me or the Jabari fans, but I definitely agree that he was roughly a net neutral. Nobody expects them to get better until they replace him with someone who's good enough on both ends of the court to be a clear positive. Beasley and Mirza don't count. Thon and Khris don't either, at least not right now. They need time to come around. I think the team will be much better in March, but it could obviously take until next year.

[Max Green]

Jabari fanboys acting like he wasn't one of the worst defenders in the NBA are funny.

Anyway, yeah, this team sucks. Kidd sucks. I hope we can trade some future money over the next week, but I'm pretty resigned to the Bucks sucking until Kidd is gone.

I went back through the PG thread to see where you are seeing people are suggesting anything about Jabari's defense and the closest I can come up with is people saying Jabari or no Jabari this team's defense is still trash. So yeah, I guess those fanboys are really out of their minds.

Gave up 122 points to the Lakers and 125 points to Nets within the last 6 days.

Yup, some were absolutely convinced that our defense was in for a big improvement without Parker sabotaging it and the point we've been making all a long has been that our defense sucks with or without the worst defender in the league.

[crkone]

Thon will start offering more help defense the more minutes you play him. He's already made huge strides from the beginning of the year when he was absolutely clueless on where to be on the floor.

Yeah his help will be okay with reps. He definitely needs to not skip leg day after watching him try to deny Lopez position in the post. He at least goes 110%, he just needs the functional strength.

[crkone]

What I really like about Mids is he does understand the defensive scheme. Numerous times he recognized the ball swinging to the open man a pass or two before it happened and either deflected it or was a step late getting there.

[coolhandluke121]

Yup, some were absolutely convinced that our defense was in for a big improvement without Parker sabotaging it and the point we've been making all a long has been that our defense sucks with or without the worst defender in the league.

They still have probably 2 of the 10 worst forward defenders in the league though, and they're getting a significant chunk of Jabari's minutes.