Quality defense at PG is harder to come by

[paul]

After the Dallas Kidd experiment fails, it looks like he'll be on the move. For mentoring purposes, it couldn't hurt bringing him in to tutor Sessions.

Develop Bogut and Yi, tank another year, and be poised to make moves in 2009-2010.

I've been secretely hoping this might happen, but didn't want to get flamed for suggesting it.....

[DH34Phan]

As much as I hate how overhyped Devin Harris gets on this board, he is a good defender and would be a good fit on our team. Although is it just me or does Sessions game remind you a lot of Harris when Harris was a first or second year player?

I don't see Devin Harris getting overrated.

If 15/6/3 while providing amazing defense is overrated, I guess he is.

Next year, in a full season with NJ, I can see him putting up 17/7/4, still with amazing defense.

[Wade-A-Holic]

After the Dallas Kidd experiment fails, it looks like he'll be on the move. For mentoring purposes, it couldn't hurt bringing him in to tutor Sessions.

Develop Bogut and Yi, tank another year, and be poised to make moves in 2009-2010.

It's a bad fit both ways. Kidd wants a shot at a title. He won't get that in Milwaukee.

Getting Kidd financially would cost way more than the Bucks should be willing to offer for an older player at this point.

If only every team could have a Jason Kidd to mentor their next point guard...

[jerrod]

that's kinda funny, 15 million a year to mentor a 2nd round pick

[europa]

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He's 32. Right now he's doing nothing for the Sixers except costing them valuable draft slots.

He's giving Philly fans a reason to believe they might have a very bright future instead of going nowhere post-AI. The team has been playing very good ball since the break and Miller's play has been a huge reason why. People in Philly are pumped about where this team is going. I'd take all of that over a few spots in a weak draft. The Bucks are going to be picking much higher than Philly and their future looks like s**t. Give me Andre Miller and Philly's future without a doubt.

[drew881]

I think it would be better to try to take advantage of Dallas in other ways. Chances are they won't be immediately dumping Kidd, but trying to get better in other places (it would be admitting too much failure to immediately dump kid)

I don't think we have anything they want, but if there is a way that we somehow do a threeway deal, we should try to pry away Brandon Bass in exchange for Villanueva.

[Nowak008]

This thread really wasn't about who we should get. Rather that unless you have an elite PG you will have to deal with the defensive issues at the PG position. The only way you can avoid it is if you have a strong facilitor at another position, and you can get away with Jaquc Vaugn/Eric Snow type.

[ReasonablySober]

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He's giving Philly fans a reason to believe they might have a very bright future instead of going nowhere post-AI. The team has been playing very good ball since the break and Miller's play has been a huge reason why. People in Philly are pumped about where this team is going. I'd take all of that over a few spots in a weak draft. The Bucks are going to be picking much higher than Philly and their future looks like s**t. Give me Andre Miller and Philly's future without a doubt.

I think they're a fine basketball team. But that future sucks unless they somehow can swing a trade for a franchise caliber big man. They certainly not getting one in the draft. They're going to be stuck in that good-not-great land for a while.

[europa]

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I think they're a fine basketball team. But that future sucks unless they somehow can swing a trade for a franchise caliber big man. They certainly not getting one in the draft. They're going to be stuck in that good-not-great land for a while.

I could not disagree more. I think they have a very bright future - with a lot riding on how much they end up paying Iggy. They definitely have to add more pieces but they have some strong pieces in place right now. Plus, they're learning how to win and that's a huge intangible.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

Why are some in such denial about the inevitability of old age? If a guy is 32, he's a couple years from being out of the league. We have seen thousands of players come through the NBA, and we know how long they can hang in there. The signs of decline don't always happen gradually a little each year. Sometimes it's a big injury, and sometimes it's just a sudden dropoff in athletic ability. Rest assured though, that it happens to everyone. And Andre Miller is 32.

Not only that, but I don't think Miller's D is fantastic. I've never seen him lock anyone down, though I haven't seen a ton of Sixers games.

On 11/27 Mo put up 14 and 9 on 60% shooting against the Sixers. On 1/8 Mo put up 21 and 9 on 50% shooting. His worst game against the Sixers was 1/30, where he put up only 14 and 2, but still shot 50%. That's the big defensive upgrade that we need?

[jerrod]

i was always surprised when people would include dre in the list of good defensive pgs.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

Stats vs Sixers.
TJ Ford Oct 31: 14 and 12, 46% shooting.
Jason Kidd Nov 3: 16 and 10 (and 14 boards), 42% shooting.
TJ Ford Nov 9: 16 and 5, 55% shooting.
Chris Paul Nov 11: 16 and 9, 60% shooting.
Chauncy Billups Nov 23: 11 and 9, 33% shooting.
Deron Williams Nov 30: 15 and 15, 50% shooting.
Jason Kidd Dec 1: 19 and 8, 58% shooting.
Deron Williams Jan 2: 15 and 20, 54% shooting.
Chauncy Billups Jan 23: 19 and 5, 50% shooting.
Chauncy Billups Mar 12: 15 and 2, 44% shooting.

It doesn't look like Andre Miller is doing a good job of producing below average nights from his opponents.

[paul]

Why are some in such denial about the inevitability of old age? If a guy is 32, he's a couple years from being out of the league. We have seen thousands of players come through the NBA, and we know how long they can hang in there. The signs of decline don't always happen gradually a little each year. Sometimes it's a big injury, and sometimes it's just a sudden dropoff in athletic ability. Rest assured though, that it happens to everyone. And Andre Miller is 32.

Not only that, but I don't think Miller's D is fantastic. I've never seen him lock anyone down, though I haven't seen a ton of Sixers games.

On 11/27 Mo put up 14 and 9 on 60% shooting against the Sixers. On 1/8 Mo put up 21 and 9 on 50% shooting. His worst game against the Sixers was 1/30, where he put up only 14 and 2, but still shot 50%. That's the big defensive upgrade that we need?

Just a couple of points on that. No one is denying Mo is a fine offensive talent, as far as instant individual offense goes he's close to as good as any PG going around, yet two of those three games mentioned he was held to below his season averages offensively. Also in those games Miller had comparable or better stats in all 3. 11/27 - Miller had 18/9 , 1/8 Miller had 13/9, 1/30 Miller had 14/7.

In those 3 games Miller had a combined 25 assists and 3 turnovers.

Mo had a combined 20 assists and 10 turnovers.

So Miller was able to force Mo into 10 TO's for 20 assists, whilst having 5 more assists and 7 less TO's himself? Sounds like a pretty big defensive upgrade at the point to me.

I don't think Miller is a lockdown defender either, but I do think he's a good solid defender. Add that to his ability to facilitate the offense and create for others, and it's a pretty good package.

[paul]

Stats vs Sixers.
TJ Ford Oct 31: 14 and 12, 46% shooting.
Jason Kidd Nov 3: 16 and 10 (and 14 boards), 42% shooting.
TJ Ford Nov 9: 16 and 5, 55% shooting.
Chris Paul Nov 11: 16 and 9, 60% shooting.
Chauncy Billups Nov 23: 11 and 9, 33% shooting.
Deron Williams Nov 30: 15 and 15, 50% shooting.
Jason Kidd Dec 1: 19 and 8, 58% shooting.
Deron Williams Jan 2: 15 and 20, 54% shooting.
Chauncy Billups Jan 23: 19 and 5, 50% shooting.
Chauncy Billups Mar 12: 15 and 2, 44% shooting.

It doesn't look like Andre Miller is doing a good job of producing below average nights from his opponents.

huh? I would say 5 of those 10 performances would be rated as below average compared to the opposition player's season numbers, and a couple more are only about average. When was the last time we had a pg capable of holding an opposition player to below average nights for 5 out of 10 games? The other thing I would say there is he didn't get 'lit up' in that entire run, and that list contains the absolute 'who's who' of point guards. How do Mo's numbers look against those guys I wonder?

[Wade-A-Holic]

Signing Chris Duhon would suffice if we're simply looking for some defense at the point guard spot. I'm sure Earl Watson isn't on Seattle's "untouchable" list. Hinrich is probably available (and is someone I've always liked a lot). Kyle Lowry plays defense and is one of about a dozen young point guards that Memphis seems to have. Jarrett Jack is available, but is turnover prone.

Honestly, stoppers at point guard don't really exist right now. A healthy Shaun Livingston may have been the closest thing recently because he had the length and quickness to really bother people.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

No one is denying Mo is a fine offensive talent, as far as instant individual offense goes he's close to as good as any PG going around, yet two of those three games mentioned he was held to below his season averages offensively.

The lowest fg% Miller has held Mo to this year is 50%.

Also in those games Miller had comparable or better stats in all 3. 11/27 - Miller had 18/9 , 1/8 Miller had 13/9, 1/30 Miller had 14/7.

In those 3 games Miller had a combined 25 assists and 3 turnovers.

Those numbers are 100% off topic.

huh? I would say 5 of those 10 performances would be rated as below average compared to the opposition player's season numbers,

Look again. Those fg%'s are sky high, and the assist numbers are healthy as well. Even if you were right about 5 out of 10 being below average (you aren't), that would mean his defensive abilities are neutral, not good.

A good defensive player should be able to hold his opponent to below average fg%'s, and cause some very poor games now and then (obviously not every night). I'm not seeing anyone create a strong case for Miller being a good defender.

[Nowak008]

There is a reason why there isn't many good defensive PG's in the league. Its hard to contain PG penetration with all of the pick n rolls in this league. Takes a team effort to contain that play.

[El Duderino]

Miller is a fine PG and certainly better than anyone the Bucks have. He's due 10 million next year and odds are high he'll have another productive season.

After that is when things will get dicey in regards to Miller. He might have another two very solid seasons in him, one at least. My guess is though he'll be wanting longer than a two year deal, more like four or five years.

It will be interesting to see if a team caves and gives Miller four or five years. This is the NBA and teams love giving out bad contracts they later regret.

[paul]

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Look again. Those fg%'s are sky high, and the assist numbers are healthy as well. Even if you were right about 5 out of 10 being below average (you aren't), that would mean his defensive abilities are neutral, not good.

A good defensive player should be able to hold his opponent to below average fg%'s, and cause some very poor games now and then (obviously not every night). I'm not seeing anyone create a strong case for Miller being a good defender.

How is adding in what Miller did to Mo in those same games 100% off topic? You brought up Mo not me, essentially saying he'd burnt Miller, when in fact Miller's offensive games were far more effective and efficient than Mo's in the matchups, meaning Miller's defense was far superior to Mo's.

As for the fg%'s of the 4 best PG's in the game (not TJ obviously) vs Miller there was nothing startling there except for CP shooting 60%, yet in that game he only had 16 points (5 below his season average), so in that case doesn't that mean Miller's done a good job allowing CP to get so few shots? All the other percentages range from 33% to 55%, and the highest score anyone had was 19 points? Are you freaking kidding me? If a guy scores 30 at 70% then that's awesome, but if a guy scores 15 on 54% who the hell cares, particularly when that guy averages 20?

Mo can't hold a guy like Udrih to under 20 and your trying to make an argument that Miller isn't a good defender by saying that he held the 4 best point guards in the league to under 20 points? That's a seriously weak argument, and if anything enhances the argument that Miller is a good defender.

I suspect if you looked at every PG's numbers vs those 4 guys these would be right up there with the best you would find in the league. He obvoiusly owns Billups, Deron's had a lot of assists against him but not a lot of points, held CP3 to under both his scoring and assist averages and Kidd to about his career numbers or just over. Yep, those numbers are terrible.....

[Wade-A-Holic]

There is a reason why there isn't many good defensive PG's in the league. Its hard to contain PG penetration with all of the pick n rolls in this league. Takes a team effort to contain that play.

True. Also, the league has really cracked down on any kind of physical contact on the perimeter, so it's much more difficult to contain.