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Has Hammond extended Bogut already?

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Post#181 » by magpies » Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:52 pm

I don't believe for a moment that both Redd and Mo will be gone, I wish it would happen but it reality their value won't be alot as they never have delivered for a full season. Yes they can score but not much else

Redd needs to goto a team where he is the second option while Mo needs a coach who tells him what to do and when he doesn't he gets benched.

In the end I am hoping Redd goes, he is expensive in both pay packets and on the defensive end.

Redd to The Bulls and give us Gordon and thomas
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Post#182 » by Nowak008 » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:46 am

europa wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I'll cite another example. There was plenty of discussion about the J/S stories which painted Redd in a negative light. Post after post after post after post was made about his behavior. Now we have the Yahoo story which paints Mo in a negative light and it's barely generated any discussion. It wasn't until Ilhan specifically drew the attention of the pro-Mo crowd that someone (you) responded.


So if the Mo nation doesn't respond first we are dodging this article? I didn't wake up until 2 because I drank a bunch of long islands, so I couldn't beat sigra to that particular post.

Whether you and others want to admit it, there is a double standard involving Mo and other players on this team and there has been one for some time now. I'm with you - I hope they both get traded this summer and we can be done with all of this garbage and start all over. But the double standard does exist and it's never made a lick of sense to me.


Double standard compared to what? Mo gets destroyed by 95% of this board. There are maybe 5 ppl that defend him.
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Post#183 » by europa » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:51 am

I agree with icat that this discussion probably doesn't need to go on any longer in a thread about Bogut. I'll just say that the Yahoo story was up for several days and little was said about the statements made about Mo. Were it not for Ilhan basically calling out Mo fans for comment it probably would have vanished to the second or third page by now.

Compare that with the fireworks that went off in the forum immediately when it came to the J/S stories about Redd and so many other examples and it's difficult, make that impossible, for me to believe there is no double standard involving Mo and other players on this team. If you disagree, that's fine. We'll agree to disagree and move on.
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Post#184 » by paulpressey25 » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:31 am

Nowak008 wrote:Double standard compared to what? Mo gets destroyed by 95% of this board. There are maybe 5 ppl that defend him.


Nowak, Midranger, Drugbust, Jerrod......

I think there were about 100 of us two-years ago.....but the numbers left on Mo island keep dwindling. Mo's gotta find the immunity idol this summer.
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Post#185 » by trwi7 » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:35 am

paulpressey25 wrote:Nowak, Midranger, Drugbust, Jerrod......


I feel so left out. :cry:
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Post#186 » by Nowak008 » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:43 am

REDDzone wrote:I'd love to hear the parts of my post you agree/disagree with as far as Mo's IQ goes.

I know some where debateable, this is the Bucks forum, let's debate.

:D


You ask and shall receive. :D I'll debate anything with a reasonable poster. Especially one of my favorite posters. :love:



REDDzone wrote:I think he takes ill-advised shots at times. Particularly in transition, I feel he settles for mid-range jumpers too often when he could probably get his teammates an easier shot.


I don't particularly disagree.

Although I will say I think it has less to do with basketball IQ then confidence in his shot (he is pretty good at making that pull up jumper) and lack of confidence in his teammates. Another thing that I think changed his mentality was when Redd got hurt. Mo went from being facilitator to a scorer. When Mo was in that role he was brilliant. Soon after that the whole go to war with me speech with LK happened and screwed the team up beyond repair.

I think he is a horrible transition defender. Not that he lacks the talent to be good in transition, just the IQ. Oftentimes I see him doing the thing that annoys me so much when he will foul a player, but just not hard enough so that they still got a shot up. I always think its fairly common sense if you are going to foul in transition then wrap 'em up so they can't get an and one.


It is stupid no doubt, but I think that has more to do with Mo being soft.

I think he and Redd jack up way too many ISO three's at the end of the quarter. Could be on coaches, could be them, either way it seems that one coach out of three would have at least one end of quarter play that didn't involve 15 second dribble then jack a three pointer.


I don't have a problem with this as much as most people do for these reasons:

1)High pick n roll with Mo/Redd is a very effective play. Lots of teams run a high pick n roll with their best player at the end of a quarter. Watch for it in the playoffs.

2)We will get the last shot of the quarter. The opponent won't get another shot at getting a basket. (Mo actually referenced this. It was the infamous time Europa took that quote out of context.)

3)We will probably get a FG attempt. That play has a low chance of getting a TO, and it is important to get a shot off.


I also believe there comes a time when you have to adjust to who you are defending and learn to either go over or under the screen, based on their shooting abilities. I don't see Mo doing a great job in that regard.


I don't disagree. I think it has to do with Mo just being a bad defender. He knows that he needs to get over the screen, but he just can't. Also I'd like to point out that it is probably the hardest thing to defend in the NBA. Thats why 100% of the NBA use the pick n roll and sometimes do it several times a possession.

Then there is the obvious cliche answers of going for two when we needed three, and calling a timeout that we didn't have. I feel like both of those mistakes are ones that high-school point guards should know better than to make. And before anyone says "But Ramon did it too!!" I'll say right now, Ramon is also an idiot for doing it.


Can't argue with that. It was indeed stupid. There is something to be said that all of those plays happened under coach K. That never happened under Stotts, Porter, Karl as far as I remember.

But I do want to say that I don't believe Mo to have a low basketball IQ in general. I just think he has a below average IQ for a starting point guard in the NBA. I like him as a player, I just feel that we are too bad defensively in other areas without having to cover for a liability at the point spot. It really isn't anything against Mo.


Fair enough.

I think what bothers me the most is that people say that Mo can't lead a good offense and be the starting PG on a contender. Our offense last year was extremely potent with Ersan/Noel getting 20 mins a night. You need superstars to be a contender, and the biggest problem that Mo and Redd have is that they both need to play with one to be more effective.
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Post#187 » by midranger » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:53 am

I don't think that Mo is a particularly smart player. For many of the reasons stated.

I disagree that he's a poor transition defender though. Maybe it just comes from watching Redd for half a decade, but Mo was fine getting back. He even stopped a couple 2 on 1 breaks this year. The rest of the team is horrible though, highlighted by Redd who is the worst in the history of basketball. Mo's defensive struggles are largely man on man.

I also disagree that Mo shouldn't be taking the end of quarter shots. Redd essentially refuses to do so. And over the past 2 years, I'd estimate that Mo has made ~25 end of quarter shots on a fairly high percentage.

The rest is pretty spot on. The pull-ups in transition with no one back to rebound, the dribbling the ball off his foot every other game, the going for a layup down 3, the over dribbling, etc...
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Post#188 » by paulpressey25 » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:02 am

In reality everyone is correct in all these threads.

We've got five massive mistakes:

Bogut over Paul
Redd for the Max
Gadz over ZaZa
Bobby Simmons over about 10 other FA's we could have pursued with that cash.
Retaining Mo for $52mm rather than going after Billups or Dre Miller.
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Post#189 » by Mike X » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:02 am

For those worried about Bogut this summer, he wont be joining the Austrlian team for work-outs or games till his contract is resolved. So if it takes till July (can it be done before then ?) he will have plenty of time to rest and work on a jump-shot.
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Post#190 » by Nowak008 » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:07 am

trwi7 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I feel so left out. :cry:


Well you need to come to the aid of your Mo nation brothern more often then!

My 5 had the ones listed above along with carwin with his cool Mo sig.
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Post#191 » by europa » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:39 am

I'm not sure there's much more to be said about either one of them. It's all been said. I think the only thing left is to see what Hammond does with them this summer.
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Post#192 » by El Duderino » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:40 am

europa wrote:I agree with icat that this discussion probably doesn't need to go on any longer in a thread about Bogut. I'll just say that the Yahoo story was up for several days and little was said about the statements made about Mo. Were it not for Ilhan basically calling out Mo fans for comment it probably would have vanished to the second or third page by now.

Compare that with the fireworks that went off in the forum immediately when it came to the J/S stories about Redd and so many other examples and it's difficult, make that impossible, for me to believe there is no double standard involving Mo and other players on this team. If you disagree, that's fine. We'll agree to disagree and move on.



I think the reason is there isn't much left to say about Mo

If a poll was put up on here about whether the Bucks should trade Mo if possible, my guess is the yes trade him would end up around 80% at minimum, could even end up over 90%.

The vast majority here not only want to move on from Mo, i think most here are quite sure that Hammond/Skiles will at the very least shop Mo around.

When it comes to Redd, there are a lot of people on here who want him traded, myself included, but he has more supporters left to stick up for him to at least some degree than Mo does.
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Post#193 » by REDDzone » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:53 pm

Nowak, good posts and I think we agree on more than both originally thought. Couple of points though...
I don't have a problem with this as much as most people do for these reasons:

1)High pick n roll with Mo/Redd is a very effective play. Lots of teams run a high pick n roll with their best player at the end of a quarter. Watch for it in the playoffs.


I wasn't really referencing the high pick-n-roll. I think that is a good play because there is less likelihood of a turnover, etc. I was more referencing the dribble for 15 seconds then launch a shot with no screens whatsoever.

And yes, I see it all the time in the play-offs. I always notice it now when I got pissed at it once but Epi was so kind to point me in the direction of pretty much every team doing it. :wink:

I think what bothers me the most is that people say that Mo can't lead a good offense and be the starting PG on a contender. Our offense last year was extremely potent with Ersan/Noel getting 20 mins a night. You need superstars to be a contender, and the biggest problem that Mo and Redd have is that they both need to play with one to be more effective.


Yep, Mo led the Bucks to the sixth best offense in the league a couple of months into the season. There is absolutely no reason Mo cannot lead a good offense, and I think this board will realize how much his mid-range jumper means to this team if he is traded in the off-season.

I argued this very point sooo many times last year when I was a huge Mo supporter. (I flip-flop on Mo every couple months, just to keep it interesting)
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Post#194 » by LISTEN2JAZZ » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:33 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:Nowak, Midranger, Drugbust, Jerrod......

I think there were about 100 of us two-years ago.....but the numbers left on Mo island keep dwindling. Mo's gotta find the immunity idol this summer.
I don't know if I qualify for that club or not. He's equally great on offense and horrible on defense. Has an average salary. Isn't the problem with our team, but isn't the solution either. I don't see him as somebody that we need to have extreme feelings about one way or another.

But around here, maybe that makes me part of Mo-love nation?

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