TI: Mo Williams / Gadzuric for Kenyon Martin

[Chapter29]

No way I take on a player like Martin. None.

To me it seems very straight forward. We have a player who relies heavily on his athleticism. He is getting to the age where his athleticism will start to fade. He has not one but two bad knees. He makes 14M next season and is under contract for 2 more after that. Whats not to love? His stats are decent and I got a chance to see him a few times this season and he looked ok. Not the athlete he once was, but still not too bad. Not even close to a player that I pay 14M for.

Sorry Wise, I am with you quite often, but this one simply doesn't work. You asked the question of Martin or Mo and Gadz. Well I choose C, neither. Gadz isn't likely to be moved so I am not going to get my hopes up there. Mo on the other hand is a prime candidate to be moved imo.

[MilBucksBackOnTop06]

Excellent idea. Superb! You have been doing some homework my friend...

I like...

We might have to take on some years to get the guy we need. In fact, Jefferson was his best when the Nets has Martin alongside him.

I love it. Martin is a nasty and tough small size but big heart PF who works his tail off on both ends of the floor.

I always like Bobby Huggins players from Cincinatti. Say what you want about their bad character and whatnot...those boys can play ball!

They compete and they challenge you! Scott Skiles was the ultimate gamer in college and in his Pro career even at 6'1 or 6' 2 that he was. He knows what I am talkin about and see that trait in others.

If healthy I would not mind rollin the dice on Nene Hilario simply because he is still young and still has some upside, but Martin and Jefferson's familiarity outweigh that.

I dont know if they get along or not, but they played well on the court at the same time and got to back to back NBA Finals.

I can get with that....can't you?

Good choice....Wise1

[MilBucksBackOnTop06]

$46M remaining on his deal and he's really hit a bit of a decline. Also, with this year's team, I want our PF to be able to step out and hit a jumper. RJ is an inconsistent outside shooter, and Bogut is non-existent there, barring improvement. We need someone in the frontcourt that can keep the D honest.

Charlie V would still be on the roster and could be subbed in to stretch the defense if needed. Martin is no slouch on the glass. Even after his knee surgery, he averaged 6.5 boards in 30mpg playing next to rebound hog Marcus Camby. Martin also averaged a steal and a block at his position which isn't bad. This team needs swagger and attitude on the floor. I think we can do worse than Kenyon Martin if we're looking for a veteran to help us win more games right now.

Wise1
LOL....dont waste your time trying to explain this to these guys! LOL..they are nuts! Martin would be perfect if you still had Villanueva to come off the bench with Alexander!

Like I said I would rather have Nene, or go get Okur like I said in the free agent thread to stretch the floor like one poster said.

But there is nothing wrong with Kenyon Martin at all. This injury crap all of you are bringing up is ridiculous. That is not a factor. Bogut and Redd get hurt more then Martin does!!! LOL...

Every team has banged up players. Martin plays gritty and he plays hurt and he plays tough and he can still rebound!

When healthy, if healthy, he is a beast in the East who keeps his man off the boards. A guy shooting jump shots like Villanueva is not in position to box out and trigger the fastbreak nor, stop guys like Howard, O'Neal, Bosh, Thomas, Noah from hitting the offensive glass!

Plus it will put too much pressure on soft Bogut...You need a grunt! Not a jump shooter. You need to use Bogut more out away from the basket at times to utilize his passing and ask him to get a jump shot.

He always wears down at the end of the season so you need a guy like Martin or Nene. You are not gonna find that perfect fit nitpicking about injury history. Get a training staff and assistant coaches who will work with KMart to keep him in shape.

And someone said it will effect out depth. No it won't. You know what,...the NBA has so many young guys in it and there is such an international influx, there are a lot of guys who are good veterans who have been kicked to the curb you can bring in.

This is not like MLB where there is a shortage of pitchers. There are plenty of role and bench guys you can get. Just try to get the best starting 5 you can.

I like this wise1 and I see where you are coming from. Martin is an excellent choice.

[vlietinho]

You've gone a long way Wise, from 'the island' to not even spelling my boy's name correctly in the threadtitle

About the trade, I like Kenyon's game, but don't like his contract, nor his injuryproneness. So I would pass on this one.

[Wise1]

Oh my vlietinho, I"m embarrased now. lol. I at least owe Gadzuric enough respect to spell his name right. Corrected.

As far as Martin goes, I think the contract is a non issue since Mo and Gadz combined make more over a greater period of time. I also don't think we'd have a "hard" commit of 3 years of Martin's contract since it could be moved as a huge expiring after year 2. To me, it's essentially a 2 year but I'd still have no problem if we had to carry the contract for a 3rd year since we'd have about $50 mil coming off of the books after 2010-11.

Here's where my mind is over this deal. I think Sessions is going to be a player. A true general that can distribute the ball at will to our offensive weapons. Although bringing in a guy like Hinrich provides security, I don't think it's necessary to bring him in. I think Sessions + Bell = Hinrich at half the price. I'd throw another small contract to Royal Ivey who also fits Skiles' scrappy profile. If someone's out there that's better than Ivey and can come cheaply, go and get him instead (Duhon).

So with the point guard situation shored up (Sessions, Duhon/Ivey, Bell) we place our focus on power forward. Our consensus favorites are AV, Collison, Haslem and maybe a few others. The downside to any of those deals would be that we wouldn't likely be able to get rid of years 4-6 of Gadz' contract and not even I expected the team to make good on the backend of that deal. Losing that contract has to be a major priority if Skiles does not plan to make Gadzuric a key rotation player.

So why not kill two birds with one stone. You lose both Mo and Gadz' longterm commitment in one fell swoop and you get a veteran power forward that can help you win now. If anyone watched Kenyon Martin play last year, you wouldn't predict that his game will fall off dramatically next season. In fact, his athleticism showed further signs of recovery from his surgery. I'd say that he has "at least" two years of reasonable production left (while still being a better overall player than a guy like Haslem). Martin has the intangibles that this team needs to change it's culture....swagger and attitude / a guy that won't back down from anyone on the court. Alexandar and Jefferson were a start, but Martin would certainly augment the toughness that JA and RJ bring to the table.

Let's look at the worst case scenario. Say Martin blows out both knees and retires (well in that case the team may be able to appeal to the league for some type of relief...not sure of the CBA provision regarding career ending injuries). In the small likelihood that happens OR K-Mart is in and out of the lineup due to complications, we STILL have CV, young JA and perhaps Ersan as security blankets to step in and play.

If the Bucks ever hope to lose the commitment to Gadzuric, I think this deal is there for the taking and I personally would be all over it. I think both teams benefit here.

[Wise1]

...and for the record, Martin played in and STARTED 75 games last season. I'd say his health is improving.

[skones]

...and for the record, Martin played in and STARTED 75 games last season. I'd say his health is improving.

71.......

[Wise1]

...and for the record, Martin played in and STARTED 75 games last season. I'd say his health is improving.

71.......

According to this source, 75:

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... le/08/7/97

However, I won't quibble over 4 games if this source is incorrect. I still think this would be an acceptable deal for the Bucks.

[skones]

...and for the record, Martin played in and STARTED 75 games last season. I'd say his health is improving.

71.......

According to this source, 75:

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... le/08/7/97

However, I won't quibble over 4 games if this source is incorrect. I still think this would be an acceptable deal for the Bucks.

Yahoo, ESPN, and NBA all have 71, and I agree.

[trwi7]

Don't we want a rebounder next to Bogut? I don't see how adding a guy who averaged 7.3, 6.3, 10.0 (in two games) and 6.5 rebounds the past four years while averaging over 30 minutes really helps us. Especially when he has a long term contract, he's way overpaid and he's been injured.

[Wise1]

Being overpaid is irrelevant in this scenario since the money owed to him would be less than what we send out and owed over a shorter period of time. Also, has Mo not been injured as well? We're on the hook for FIVE more years with Mo.

As far as rebounding, I think Bogut will get the lions share at near 10 and CV isn't a bad rebounder either.

If you don't think Martin brings more to the table than CV and you don't mind sitting on Gadz' contract, then I can understand why this deal wouldn't be for you.

[vlietinho]

Oh my vlietinho, I"m embarrased now. lol. I at least owe Gadzuric enough respect to spell his name right. Corrected.

As far as Martin goes, I think the contract is a non issue since Mo and Gadz combined make more over a greater period of time. I also don't think we'd have a "hard" commit of 3 years of Martin's contract since it could be moved as a huge expiring after year 2. To me, it's essentially a 2 year but I'd still have no problem if we had to carry the contract for a 3rd year since we'd have about $50 mil coming off of the books after 2010-11.

Here's where my mind is over this deal. I think Sessions is going to be a player. A true general that can distribute the ball at will to our offensive weapons. Although bringing in a guy like Hinrich provides security, I don't think it's necessary to bring him in. I think Sessions + Bell = Hinrich at half the price. I'd throw another small contract to Royal Ivey who also fits Skiles' scrappy profile. If someone's out there that's better than Ivey and can come cheaply, go and get him instead (Duhon).

So with the point guard situation shored up (Sessions, Duhon/Ivey, Bell) we place our focus on power forward. Our consensus favorites are AV, Collison, Haslem and maybe a few others. The downside to any of those deals would be that we wouldn't likely be able to get rid of years 4-6 of Gadz' contract and not even I expected the team to make good on the backend of that deal. Losing that contract has to be a major priority if Skiles does not plan to make Gadzuric a key rotation player.

So why not kill two birds with one stone. You lose both Mo and Gadz' longterm commitment in one fell swoop and you get a veteran power forward that can help you win now. If anyone watched Kenyon Martin play last year, you wouldn't predict that his game will fall off dramatically next season. In fact, his athleticism showed further signs of recovery from his surgery. I'd say that he has "at least" two years of reasonable production left (while still being a better overall player than a guy like Haslem). Martin has the intangibles that this team needs to change it's culture....swagger and attitude / a guy that won't back down from anyone on the court. Alexandar and Jefferson were a start, but Martin would certainly augment the toughness that JA and RJ bring to the table.

Let's look at the worst case scenario. Say Martin blows out both knees and retires (well in that case the team may be able to appeal to the league for some type of relief...not sure of the CBA provision regarding career ending injuries). In the small likelihood that happens OR K-Mart is in and out of the lineup due to complications, we STILL have CV, young JA and perhaps Ersan as security blankets to step in and play.

If the Bucks ever hope to lose the commitment to Gadzuric, I think this deal is there for the taking and I personally would be all over it. I think both teams benefit here.

You say Sessions is (going to be) a player, I say perhaps.., in a few years.. I really doubt it, and if he is or will be, he aint ready, yet IMO

So if we deal Mo and Gadz for Kenyon we'd be stuck with Bell and Sessions as PG. Bell isnt a PG imo, (he's a SG who can defend well. And I dont like Ivey much at all. So I'll still pass