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Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game?

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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#101 » by Balls2TheWalls » Wed Jul 2, 2008 12:01 am

power4wardjinx wrote:Yeah, an all-star center and a former All-Pro center are bums!!! Yikes. 54-110 gets you bums and that;s where we're at.

Rilamann's got a better perspective - the Cavs have some players that anybody would want, including Delonte, Boobie and Varejao. That's why, in addition to Lebron, they are so good, and, yes the Bucks are a perfect fit for Varejao. Charlie V isn't going to be hitting the boards.

Mo doesn't get us Varejao, this is about Redd. No way he's still safe from a trade, no matter what Michael Hunt, Europa or anybody else says.


Are we talking about Ben Wallace and Z? You have got to be kidding me. Both lie in the "geriatrics" part of my analysis.

Delonte and Boobie add up to nothing for me. Neither is very interesting. Varejao might be a good fit, but you better find a real player to send us if you wanna talk about Michael Redd.
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#102 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Jul 2, 2008 12:05 am

rilamann wrote:In response to DB's post on me blaming all the team's struggles on Mo.(this new board style sucks)

Its not all on Mo obviously but he has been one of the main reasons why this team has struggled to even hit 30 wins the 3 years he has started at PG.

I have to add that it is ironic (actualy it isnt) that the one year in the last 4 years in which Mo wasnt our starting PG just so happens the one in the last 4 years that we actually did make the playoffs.

The Reason Mo gets more blame and why he was a big reason for our struggles is simple,he is the PG.

The PG's job is to run the offense and get the ball to his teammates in their spots so that they can be effective.When you're ball hogging and turning the ball over at a high rate from the PG position your not only hurting the team with your own play but your also in doing that hurting the preformance of your teammates.

Its kinda like in football,you could have 3 all pro WR's but if your QB is trash and cant get them the ball and throws 3 picks every game its not going to matter if you 5 all pro WRs.

Its the same thing with basketball when you have a shoot first PG who turns the ball over at a high rate.

It doesnt matter who the Bucks have on the roster,as long as Mo Williams is the starting PG the Bucks as a team will always be in a position to fail/lose.

So is it all Mo's fault? No but he was one of the main reasons why the Bucks have struggled when he has been the starting PG.

And even with all that said his D is terrible and attitude is ****.


I didn't mean you insinuated that Mo was to blame for all the team's problems. But this idea that a team will only go as far as their PG will lead them is total and complete crap. Really, it is.

Delonte West isn't leading a team anywhere. He's not some crafty PG that knows how best to get his teammates the ball to be in the best possible position for them to succeed. Same with Jordan Farmar, same with Rajon Rondo. What they know is to get the hell out of the way when LeBron, Kobe and Pierce decide it's time to take over the game.

But their teams enjoyed quite a bit of success this season, right?

It would be different if Mo Williams was the team leader and/or their best player. But he's not Baron Davis, Chris Paul, Deron Williams or Chauncey Billups. People have argued that Redd is the best player. In '08 Bogut was the best player we've been told. Hell, back in November and December some people actually argued Yi was our best player. Nobody has made that argument for Mo, so why is he the guy that needs to carry the burden of leading this team anywhere.

If Bogut is the best player then shouldn't he have lead the team to more victories this spring? You can't say he didn't see the ball enough or get enough shots. Of centers in the NBA only Ming, Kaman, Z and Howard shot the ball more.

So if Bogut is our best player and he's getting his shots, then what's the excuse? Could it be that the team around him simply sucks? Or that if he's our best player then we're going to be a lotto team?

Is Mo a reason the Bucks won 26 games? Sure. Without him they might win 20, but I wouldn't bet on it.
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#103 » by power4wardjinx » Wed Jul 2, 2008 12:13 am

Michael Redd is 110-170 in games he's started since the Bucks got Mo. I'd trade Redd for a six pack of beer. He;s one of those guys who doesn't mind losing. Other teams don't even deny him the ball anymore -- they let him have it knowing that he's not going to be smart with it.

I'm not sayin we trade him for Z or Big Ben but both of those guys have accomplished more in their careers than our center, who has a lot to prove and those are two guys he has to prove it against. And they know how to win.

Cleveland wants Redd - give him up. We'll struggle to win 30 games with him on the roster.
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#104 » by Diggr14 » Wed Jul 2, 2008 12:15 am

Dont get me wrong, Mo needs to pick up his defense BIG TIME. But, having Small and Power Forwards or two that arent complete pushovers will go a long way to making him look a lot better. Mo Williams was not our biggest problem last year. The lack of a 3 or a 4 was our biggest problem. Mo and Michael do get a lot of deserved blame too, but the biggest problem last year was the forward position.
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#105 » by bango_the_buck » Wed Jul 2, 2008 12:19 am

power4wardjinx wrote:Michael Redd is 110-170 in games he's started since the Bucks got Mo. I'd trade Redd for a six pack of beer. He;s one of those guys who doesn't mind losing. Other teams don't even deny him the ball anymore -- they let him have it knowing that he's not going to be smart with it.

I'm not sayin we trade him for Z or Big Ben but both of those guys have accomplished more in their careers than our center, who has a lot to prove and those are two guys he has to prove it against. And they know how to win.

Cleveland wants Redd - give him up. We'll struggle to win 30 games with him on the roster.


Why do you keep using 'we' and 'our' when speaking of the Bucks? It's clear you're more of a Cavs fan...
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#106 » by power4wardjinx » Wed Jul 2, 2008 12:23 am

DrugBust wrote:
So is it all Mo's fault? No but he was one of the main reasons why the Bucks have struggled when he has been the starting PG.

And even with all that said his D is terrible and attitude is ****.


I didn't mean you insinuated that Mo was to blame for all the team's problems. But this idea that a team will only go as far as their PG will lead them is total and complete crap. Really, it is.

Delonte West isn't leading a team anywhere. He's not some crafty PG that knows how best to get his teammates the ball to be in the best possible position for them to succeed. Same with Jordan Farmar, same with Rajon Rondo. What they know is to get the hell out of the way when LeBron, Kobe and Pierce decide it's time to take over the game.

But their teams enjoyed quite a bit of success this season, right?

It would be different if Mo Williams was the team leader and/or their best player. But he's not Baron Davis, Chris Paul, Deron Williams or Chauncey Billups. People have argued that Redd is the best player. In '08 Bogut was the best player we've been told. Hell, back in November and December some people actually argued Yi was our best player. Nobody has made that argument for Mo, so why is he the guy that needs to carry the burden of leading this team anywhere.

Is Mo a reason the Bucks won 26 games? Sure. Without him they might win 20, but I wouldn't bet on it.[/quote]

I like Mo and wouldn't trade him, period. He shoots too damn well. I would bring him off the bench and start Sessions. Mo'd be deadly off the bench. To me this is still about Redd - he's got to go and the Bucks will suck until he goes. Mo did everything he could to prove that he could lead the team when Redd was out and he didn't do a bad job of it. He proved his point -- Mo should stay and find a new role under Skiles.
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#107 » by Balls2TheWalls » Wed Jul 2, 2008 12:24 am

I'm going to go on record and disagree with you. If I had to choose who to keep between Mo and Redd, I would keep Redd.

On top of that, there is no package that the Cavs could put together that would make me want to send them Redd.
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#108 » by Nowak008 » Wed Jul 2, 2008 12:35 am

xTitan wrote:Mo Williams is a very good, extremely undersized shooting guard. Williams has a very low basketball IQ, does not have any natural PG instincts in terms of running an offense. Mo is terrible at passing the ball to his teammmates at the correct time and putting it in the correct place, has no leadership skills, and is selfish.


If Mo is an undersized shooting guard like you say, Mo is actually an elite passer for his position. 2nd in asts among SG's beind Iverson.


. I have a real problem with those extremely intelligent posters who claim he plays hard, he runs fast and gets his shot, if that is playing hard then he is the hardest player in the world, if you are smart enough to include defensive effort and the ability to make players around you better, then he does not play hard at all.


Mo doesn't play hard? Even Europa concedes Mo plays hard. He has a great work ethic and has gotten better every season into the league. Mo won't become an allstar next year, he will though probably get better.

th87 wrote:
And who's to say he won't improve upon his weaknesses?


Agreed. We brought in one of the 3 best defensive coaches in the league, and with Mo's work ethic I can see Mo being mediocre.

adamcz wrote:
Now Mo isn't as exciting a performer as Gil is, but their impact on wins isn't vastly different. They are both gifted scorers (with Gil being better around the basket and with insane range, and Mo being better in the midrange) who pass moderately well. They also both lack interest in playing defense. At equal salaries, I would rather have Arenas, mostly because he is more fun to watch. But at $20 million for Arenas vs $9 million for Mo? Such a deal ought to raise Mo's trade value.


Very good question. I have seen what giving a max deal to a non elite player can do to a team. I'll take Mo.

He is an offensive force. I don't care what anyone says, but the name of the game is putting the ball in the basket and Mo does it almost as well as any PG in the league. He's efficient, shoots well from all over the court and is a proven fourth quarter, crunch time performer.


Very underrated quality imo.

I think the mythical true point guard is a deserved tounge in cheek jab. There aren't many of the type of point guards that make their teammates better. Paul and Williams, plus the aging Kidd and Nash (and Billups?). Once we start talking about the next level down - Blake, Ford, Hinrich, Davis, Miller - then we have to argue all day long about whether they truly do whatever it is the "true" pg does. I'm not saying they don't - just saying it's a fact that people argue it on the boards of those guys' teams. We had a couple of those guys on our team and we argued about it all the time.


Yep. I'd be fine with people admitting they want a guy like Eric Snow as the PG, I just can't stand the "need a guy with good court vision" BS. We aren't getting a better passing/playing making PG then Mo. We just aren't.

What those people seem to miss is that Mo being a shoot first PG wouldnt be so bad if he didnt take garbage selfish shots.


Yea having the 2nd best mid range jumper is such a garbage shot. :rolleyes:

REDDzone wrote: If he was even good enough defensively to be labeled as "just below average", I wouldn't even consider trading him. Honestly.


You don't think Skiles could get him to that?
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#109 » by power4wardjinx » Wed Jul 2, 2008 12:37 am

bango_the_buck wrote:Why do you keep using 'we' and 'our' when speaking of the Bucks? It's clear you're more of a Cavs fan...



How is that clear? Because I know something about the Cavs and am not wearing Michael Redd goggles? I'm no fan of disgraceful basketball or the Van Gundy clear out offense that Redd decides he should play whenever the mood strikes him.

"We" and "our" to me means retiring Marques Johnson's number and trading Michael Redd, who's killed the team down the stretch twice in two playoff runs - 2004 and 06. Pathetic - you should look at the game logs.

I want Redd off my team, and if to you that makes me a Cavs fan, you should start watching the Cavs and some of these players so quickly dismissed as garbage on this board. Our guys have been coming up short for years, Bogut included (he's yet to outplay Ilgauskus).
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#110 » by bango_the_buck » Wed Jul 2, 2008 12:43 am

power4wardjinx wrote:I'll punch your lights out if you think for one second the Milwaukee Bucks matter.

They don't. PERIOD.


Quite the fan. GO BUCKS!!!! :roll:
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#111 » by REDDzone » Wed Jul 2, 2008 12:45 am

Who knows Nowak, but as I stated in your thread about keeping the starting five together, there has to be some point where we all come to terms with the fact that its the players, and not the coach, that are not interested in defense.

To be honest I see the same thing as last year coming to pass. The first few games we will see improved defense out of everyone, but in the long run the fact that we have the worst defensive backcourt in the NBA will catch up to us. Do you have enough faith in Skiles that he can turn THE worst defensive backcourt in the NBA into a backcourt capable of ever contending? I'd be shocked, personally, but I guess we will see.
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#112 » by power4wardjinx » Wed Jul 2, 2008 12:47 am

bango_the_buck wrote:
power4wardjinx wrote:I'll punch your lights out if you think for one second the Milwaukee Bucks matter.

They don't. PERIOD.


Quite the fan. GO BUCKS!!!! :roll:


They don't matter, not enough to be punching anyone out over, which is what that was about ... and, no, won't be buying tickets next season if Redd is on the team.
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#113 » by El Duderino » Wed Jul 2, 2008 1:03 am

xTitan wrote:
You're saying the onus on the Bucks making the playoffs is on Mo Williams? As opposed to the Redd, the guy making the max or Bogut, the #1 overall pick?

News to me...


The onus is always on the guy running your offense and deciding who gets the ball where and when, this is the case especially with Bogut but also Redd. I remember Terry Stotts saying one time that its tough for the bigs because they are at the mercy of the ball handlers quite a bit.



I want a different starting PG on the Bucks this year, but how Mo ran the Bucks offense the last few years is far overrated as the problem for why the Bucks record sucked during that time. The production of the offense during that time when the team was healthy would have been good enough for the Bucks to be in the playoffs.

It was being the second worst defensive team in the NBA the last two years and being a poor rebounding team that far and away were the biggest reasons for the teams failure. The Bucks were like a baseball team with a solid to good offense, but also had the worst pitching staff in the league and an error prone defense.

Now obviously the sieve like defense from Mo at PG played a sizable factor in why the defense sucked so bad. With that said, when Mo missed games via injury the last two years, the defense was just as bad or worse than when he was on the court and the Bucks winning percentage was even worse than when he played. That right there tells the story about just how deep the defensive woes on the Bucks were if a terrible defender like Mo can miss games and nothing on defense improves.

Softness oozed out of every pore from the Bucks teams the last two years and nothing needs to be improved more than that if they want to win more games. Skiles coaching and the changes so far on the team are a good start, i suspect a tougher PG is also high on the agenda.
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#114 » by Debit One » Wed Jul 2, 2008 1:12 am

Nowak008 wrote:We brought in one of the 3 best defensive coaches in the league, and with Mo's work ethic I can see Mo being mediocre.


The hilarity of this sentence is just too much for me. If I didn't know who authored it, I would swear that it was written by a Mo detractor who was trying to be sarcastic.

Yes, given a stellar defensive coach Mo just might improve his defense to "mediocre" status.

:rofl:
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#115 » by Nowak008 » Wed Jul 2, 2008 1:15 am

REDDzone wrote:Who knows Nowak, but as I stated in your thread about keeping the starting five together, there has to be some point where we all come to terms with the fact that its the players, and not the coach, that are not interested in defense.

To be honest I see the same thing as last year coming to pass. The first few games we will see improved defense out of everyone, but in the long run the fact that we have the worst defensive backcourt in the NBA will catch up to us. Do you have enough faith in Skiles that he can turn THE worst defensive backcourt in the NBA into a backcourt capable of ever contending? I'd be shocked, personally, but I guess we will see.


That could very well be.

The problem with last year is our locker room was such a disaster. Bell held out and didn't want to play for the team, Simmons/CV were mad they weren't starting, the whole Yi drama, Bogut saying borderline racist remarks, with LK drunk at the helm. The good news is that the worst offenders are gone.

What we do know is they have show they have the ability. With Skiles resume I think he can make this team good enough on D.

As far as contending, it won't matter unless Bogut becomes Brand. With this current lineup + a FA like Landry we could have fun team that puts up a bunch of points up. winning 50 games the next couple of years.

If we can become a good rebounding team we will be fine. One of our biggest problems the last 2 years is after we finally got a stop we could never get a critical rebound. Second chance possessions have such a high FG percentage.
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#116 » by power4wardjinx » Wed Jul 2, 2008 1:16 am

Good post Xtitan - Anybody who was at the games knows how hard Mo worked, especially when Redd was out. Mo was trying to do good on the floor for much of last year but really didn't have the space to do anything w/ Redd out there. The thing imploded when Redd came back from injury - remember the Knicks and Clippers games at home??? The Clippers game in particular I remember Mo throwing himself all over the court trying to win that game but to no avail. Redd refused to shoot in the first half, hogged the ball in the second half and Bogut got outplayed by Chris Kaman. Mo did everything he could, even got Cassell benched only to see Dan Dickau win the game with a couple of threes.

Mo is not the problem Bucks fans make him out to be -- it's Redd, Redd, Redd. Mo works hard, plays hard, could get it together on defense better but he is a solid pro who can shoot the lights out. I don't want to see him traded - we won't get much back for him.
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#117 » by cam2win » Wed Jul 2, 2008 1:23 am

power4wardjinx wrote:
bango_the_buck wrote:
power4wardjinx wrote:I'll punch your lights out if you think for one second the Milwaukee Bucks matter.

They don't. PERIOD.


Quite the fan. GO BUCKS!!!! :roll:


They don't matter, not enough to be punching anyone out over, which is what that was about ... and, no, won't be buying tickets next season if Redd is on the team.


Least all the real fans here will know they won't have to worry about sitting next to you and your anger issues at the games.

And for you to say Bogut hasn't outplayed Ilgauskas yet is laughable. Big Z's lack of mobility is one of the things hindering lebron on the cavs from being a legit team.
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#118 » by power4wardjinx » Wed Jul 2, 2008 1:30 am

Check the logs and boxes ... here I'll help you out: http://basketball-reference.com

Bogut didn't outplay Z all last year. That's fact - maybe you're laughing to keep from crying, though Langston Hughes was talking about things a little more important than basketball.
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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#119 » by old skool » Wed Jul 2, 2008 1:54 am

I like Mo as a player. I recognize his limitations. But one fact is undeniable. The more he plays, the fewer wins the Bucks log. The more he sits, the more success the Bucks have. The two playoff appearances over the last five years have come when TJ Ford did most of the starting at PG. When we relied on Mo, the team has struggled.

It is a rare player who can succeed on both ends of the court in the NBA. Most players have to rest and recover on one end or the other. Mo is not talented enough to do both. The Bucks have needed him as a scorer the last two years. He was their second best offensive player both seasons. My hope for Mo is that he continues to develop and becomes a top point guard after a few years (ala Chaucey Billups who was let go by several teams while he was developing). I hope that he also can become more well rounded on defense if he does not have to expend so much effort on the offensive end - especially if the Bucks have some legitimate front court starters.

The Bucks organization holds some responsibility for the mess of the last two years. Having zero depth at PG and no solid NBA forwards has been a lot to over come. Part of that is trying to give CV and Yi a chance to develop, and giving Simmons a chance to regain the game that he had a couple of years ago. But the lack of skill at multiple positions has been telling - and has left Redd and Mo over matched when the other team can focus on them. They are not superstar caliber players like Kobe or Lebron.

Finally there has been the coaching turnover. sKiles is the fifth coach in the last seven years. At some point, the musical coaches becomes counter productive.

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Re: Why Do You Guys Not Like Mo Williams' Game? 

Post#120 » by randy84 » Wed Jul 2, 2008 2:42 am

All that I can say is if you can't win more than 26 games with a PG that averages 17 pts, and 6 assists a game, then you suck as a basketball coach.

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