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OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules

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OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules 

Post#1 » by NeedsMoreCheese » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:37 pm

Per wiretap. http://www.nj.com/nets/index.ssf/2008/0 ... trade.html

The second part of the title is of course something GAD will have great interest in,

Rod Thorn is about to fill his most glaring vacancy, and now all he have to do is wait for Orlando to do some clerical work. The Nets have an agreement in principle to make a sign-and-trade deal for free agent Keyon Dooling, a combo guard they have pursued for years, and he'll fit right in as a reserve for starters Vince Carter and Devin Harris.

"I'm hopeful ... that we can make a trade," was Thorn's closest statement resembling a confirmation Friday night.

An eight-year veteran, Dooling would be acquired by making use of a $3.3 million trade exception the Nets obtained in the Jason Kidd deal last February. That will now be transferred to the Magic, who will prepare a two-year contract that calls for a $3.3 million salary next year and a $3.5 million salary for 2009-10, with a partially-guaranteed third season that will pay him a pittance.

The process is expected to be completed by mid-week, after Orlando prepares the contract and the Nets give the 6-foot-3 Dooling his physical. But the process won't begin until the teams run the trade past the league Monday morning.

The trade gives the Nets a solid backcourt trio, with a feisty, long-armed third guard who can defend both spots effectively. But it also gives them 16 guaranteed contracts, so they have stepped up their efforts to move point guard Marcus Williams, who now becomes the odd man out again.

The most logical landing spot for Williams might be one of the many teams who have their own trade exceptions -- Seattle has two, in fact -- and wouldn't mind taking a chance on a work in progress with a $1.2 million price tag.

"I have no problems with going to 16 contracts," Thorn said. "We've got other things to do. Even if this does happen, we have work to do,and we have a lot of time to do it in."

Dooling, a 28-year-old Floridian who made $3.5 million last year -- he averaged 8.1 points and 1.8 assists in 72 games -- was looking like the odd man out in this free agent market until the Nets came calling. The Magic had offered him the biannual exception, which calls for a mere $4.1 million for two seasons. His agent, Rob Pelinka, rejected the offer, and Dooling himself called it an insult.

"I don't even know why they offered that bi-annual because I rejected it right away.
I don't know if they were trying to devalue me or whatever the case may be, but that wasn't acceptable," Dooling told Florida Today. "It's ridiculous. That's not a suitable offer for someone who was a good player on a good team. It wasn't a market value offer and that's the bottom line."

The Nets had no such misgivings, and they had no other immediate plans anyway for the trade exception, which expires in February.


I was going to let it go when they mishandled the whole "transfer" thing. (though that definitely isnt right). The main problem is them claiming the Magic offered the BAE to Dooling. Thats ridiculously stupid in an article about a S&T.
In order to do the S&T you need to have some sort of Bird Rights in the first place, if you have those Bird Rights you wouldnt offer your BAE.
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Re: OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules 

Post#2 » by paulpressey25 » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:40 pm

Ok...who do you want...Keyon Dooling or Tyronn Lue?

I'm glad Rod Thorn is willing to accomodate extra players on his roster to land such a talent.......
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Re: OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules 

Post#3 » by NeedsMoreCheese » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:44 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:Ok...who do you want...Keyon Dooling or Tyronn Lue?

I'm glad Rod Thorn is willing to accomodate extra players on his roster to land such a talent.......


Keyon Dooling is much better than Lue. Hes a good defender and has good size. This contract isnt a surprise PP, Dooling is definitely worth it for what he brings.
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Re: OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules 

Post#4 » by carmelbrownqueen » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:47 pm

For me the most interesting part of this article is the fact that yet another free agent point guard is off the market. Which could be important in our efforts to move Mo Williams. Teams like Miami have been looking for a relatively cheap guy to partner with or start over rookie Mario Chalmers.. and this is yet another body unavailable to them. Miami, GSW, etc. need a starting point guard and from the looks of available free agents they aren't really going to get one without making a trade.
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Re: OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules 

Post#5 » by NeedsMoreCheese » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:52 pm

carmelbrownqueen wrote:For me the most interesting part of this article is the fact that yet another free agent point guard is off the market. Which could be important in our efforts to move Mo Williams. Teams like Miami have been looking for a relatively cheap guy to partner with or start over rookie Mario Chalmers.. and this is yet another body unavailable to them. Miami, GSW, etc. need a starting point guard and from the looks of available free agents they aren't really going to get one without making a trade.


Well thats the thing, like i said i the previous post, those guys werent really in the mix because Dooling was higher priced than the BAE (Otherwise he never would have opted out this year) to begin with. As for Miami, they already have about 4 mil a year of wasted space at PG (Marcus Banks) next to Chalmers, so obviously they arent willing to spend much unless they really like the guy. Plus that whole Marion situation still seems unsettled to me, I think a shakeup still will happen before the season for them.
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Re: OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules 

Post#6 » by EastSideBucksFan » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:46 pm

Does anyone know what the hell Kiki is doing?

I mean, I thought their whole goal was to have cap space in two years to land Lebron.

Now, they give Keyon Dooling a 3 year deal and Ed Najera a 4 year deal.......WTF?

They move Jefferson to save money and then give marginal role players long term deals.

Complain all you want about Lue and Malik Allen, I'm just glad we aren't handing out deals like Kiki.

Makes no sense to me at all, the guy has no clear sense of direction for that franchise.
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Re: OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules 

Post#7 » by GrandAdmiralDan » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:32 pm

Kohl Is A Mome wrote:Per wiretap. http://www.nj.com/nets/index.ssf/2008/0 ... trade.html

The second part of the title is of course something GAD will have great interest in,

Rod Thorn is about to fill his most glaring vacancy, and now all he have to do is wait for Orlando to do some clerical work. The Nets have an agreement in principle to make a sign-and-trade deal for free agent Keyon Dooling, a combo guard they have pursued for years, and he'll fit right in as a reserve for starters Vince Carter and Devin Harris.

"I'm hopeful ... that we can make a trade," was Thorn's closest statement resembling a confirmation Friday night.

An eight-year veteran, Dooling would be acquired by making use of a $3.3 million trade exception the Nets obtained in the Jason Kidd deal last February. That will now be transferred to the Magic, who will prepare a two-year contract that calls for a $3.3 million salary next year and a $3.5 million salary for 2009-10, with a partially-guaranteed third season that will pay him a pittance.

The process is expected to be completed by mid-week, after Orlando prepares the contract and the Nets give the 6-foot-3 Dooling his physical. But the process won't begin until the teams run the trade past the league Monday morning.

The trade gives the Nets a solid backcourt trio, with a feisty, long-armed third guard who can defend both spots effectively. But it also gives them 16 guaranteed contracts, so they have stepped up their efforts to move point guard Marcus Williams, who now becomes the odd man out again.

The most logical landing spot for Williams might be one of the many teams who have their own trade exceptions -- Seattle has two, in fact -- and wouldn't mind taking a chance on a work in progress with a $1.2 million price tag.

"I have no problems with going to 16 contracts," Thorn said. "We've got other things to do. Even if this does happen, we have work to do,and we have a lot of time to do it in."

Dooling, a 28-year-old Floridian who made $3.5 million last year -- he averaged 8.1 points and 1.8 assists in 72 games -- was looking like the odd man out in this free agent market until the Nets came calling. The Magic had offered him the biannual exception, which calls for a mere $4.1 million for two seasons. His agent, Rob Pelinka, rejected the offer, and Dooling himself called it an insult.

"I don't even know why they offered that bi-annual because I rejected it right away.
I don't know if they were trying to devalue me or whatever the case may be, but that wasn't acceptable," Dooling told Florida Today. "It's ridiculous. That's not a suitable offer for someone who was a good player on a good team. It wasn't a market value offer and that's the bottom line."

The Nets had no such misgivings, and they had no other immediate plans anyway for the trade exception, which expires in February.


I was going to let it go when they mishandled the whole "transfer" thing. (though that definitely isnt right). The main problem is them claiming the Magic offered the BAE to Dooling. Thats ridiculously stupid in an article about a S&T.
In order to do the S&T you need to have some sort of Bird Rights in the first place, if you have those Bird Rights you wouldnt offer your BAE.


Right you are.
Obviously most people here know that one of my pet peeves is media relaying information that isn't accurate or isn't as precise as it should be.

The thing with Dooling is that the offer they talk about him getting was presumably for the same amount as the BAE. It is common for teams to take the amount that a particular exception is worth and make an offer to that player for the same amount, but the team wouldn't actually be using that particular exception.

If they didn't want to explain it, the least they should have done would have been to say "BAE equivalent" and add in something to the effect of "even though the 'bird rights' they had on Dooling would have permitted them a larger offer"

That is an important distinction. Because on the one hand you may have a team offering all that they are able to by themselves (BAE or all of the MLE they have left) and on the other hand you have a team just offering an amount that they feel would be the amount other teams may be offering.

EastSideBucksFan wrote:Does anyone know what the hell Kiki is doing?

I mean, I thought their whole goal was to have cap space in two years to land Lebron.

Now, they give Keyon Dooling a 3 year deal and Ed Najera a 4 year deal.......WTF?

They move Jefferson to save money and then give marginal role players long term deals.

Complain all you want about Lue and Malik Allen, I'm just glad we aren't handing out deals like Kiki.

Makes no sense to me at all, the guy has no clear sense of direction for that franchise.


I haven't looked into it completely, but Dooling's deal doesn't seem like it is actually a 3 year deal.
It looks like the Nets were willing to effectively give him a 2 year contract. But S&T contracts must be for a minimum of 3 years. You are only required to have the first year of that contract fully guaranteed though. Clearly this isn't a reliable report when it comes to details, but this report says "a partially-guaranteed third season that will pay him a pittance."
My guess is that they guaranteed only 200k or something small like that, but I'm not sure what this paper equates to "a pittance"
Again, I hope they weren't able to give the actual amount, because if they were, and they went with "a pittance" instead, that is bad journalism, IMO.

Why even guaranty any of it in that third year? It was probably just something they negotiated. In order to get out of having to pay the non-guaranteed part of Dooling's salary that season, the Nets will have to waive him, which means they couldn't re-sign him with bird rights, and they also couldn't S&T him. That takes away some of Dooling's options next time he might be a free agent, so the amount that they partially guaranteed might in effect be compensation for having to be put in that situation.
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Re: OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules 

Post#8 » by carmelbrownqueen » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:51 pm

Dooling might be the better defender but both Lue and Dooling along with a number of those PG signings all add up to the same thing.. backup guys that aren't meant to play very many minutes unless absolutely necessary. They shouldn't be starting for any team in this league, and I'm not sure they should have a prominent roll off the bench really. Their decent players and that's about it.

But back to what I was saying before about the walls closing in on teams looking to upgrade their depth or maybe even talent at the PG position. The following guys are off the market now:

Keyon Dooling
Anthony Johnson
Carlos Arroyo (signed in Russia I think)
Tyronn Lue
Chris Duhon
Anthony Carter
Beno Udrih
Jose Calderon

I might have missed a few names, but let's just say there aren't a lot of prominient but cheap players left on the market. There are a few guys still available but the options are getting real thin for teams looking to grab a point guard. Sure guys like Shaun Livingston are still out there on the market but many doubt that he will be ready to play at anything close to 100% by the start of the season. Other's fear that he may never be able to play a completely healthy season for the rest of his young career. We'll see what happens but I highly doubt teams like GSW really want to try and execute Nellie ball with the guys still available as free agents running the point. Miami could foreseeable try and go with Mario Chalmers and Marcus Banks (who they have been trying to unload since they got him) as their main PG rotation, but if that was their best or most desired option then they would have never sought to sign guys like Dooling, Lue, etc. and wouldn't be rumored to be interested in guys like Jamaal Tinsley. Bring on the more interesting or enticing Mo Williams offers! :D
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Re: OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules 

Post#9 » by andonewheel » Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:05 pm

Arroyo signed in Russia? Yikes, didn't hear that somehow.

I like Keyon a lot more than Lue. It sounds like Keyon's contract goes to near the minimum in two years when NJ wants to make their FA push.
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Re: OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules 

Post#10 » by bstein14 » Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:40 pm

I don't see a problem with this article at all...

They had a quote from Dooling saying "I don't know what they offered the BAE"...

So its not like they're making it up, they have a direct quote.

Obviously Orlando felt that was what he was worth and would be what another team might offer so that's what they offered... even if it wasn't technically the BAE but rather paid him using bird rights.

The same thing is started all the time when a team resigns its own FA or matches a MLE offer... they say a player was signed to a MLE contract... which for all intents and purposes it is a MLE sized contract.

And the trade exception will go to Orlando... and $4.1 million over 2 years is basically what the BAE is over 2 years...
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Re: OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules 

Post#11 » by BlueJeep » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:25 pm

LUE > drooling
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Re: OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules 

Post#12 » by NeedsMoreCheese » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:35 am

bstein14 wrote:I don't see a problem with this article at all...

They had a quote from Dooling saying "I don't know what they offered the BAE"...

So its not like they're making it up, they have a direct quote.

Obviously Orlando felt that was what he was worth and would be what another team might offer so that's what they offered... even if it wasn't technically the BAE but rather paid him using bird rights.

The same thing is started all the time when a team resigns its own FA or matches a MLE offer... they say a player was signed to a MLE contract... which for all intents and purposes it is a MLE sized contract.

And the trade exception will go to Orlando... and $4.1 million over 2 years is basically what the BAE is over 2 years...


Actually thats not true, A new one is created. You can never actually trade one of those. And whether they got that quote from Dooling or stated it themselves about the BAE, thats not the point. Its irresponsible journalism to not clarify the huge error.
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Re: OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules 

Post#13 » by NeedsMoreCheese » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:03 am

carmelbrownqueen wrote:Dooling might be the better defender but both Lue and Dooling along with a number of those PG signings all add up to the same thing.. backup guys that aren't meant to play very many minutes unless absolutely necessary. They shouldn't be starting for any team in this league, and I'm not sure they should have a prominent roll off the bench really. Their decent players and that's about it.

But back to what I was saying before about the walls closing in on teams looking to upgrade their depth or maybe even talent at the PG position. The following guys are off the market now:

Keyon Dooling
Anthony Johnson
Carlos Arroyo (signed in Russia I think)
Tyronn Lue
Chris Duhon
Anthony Carter
Beno Udrih
Jose Calderon

I might have missed a few names, but let's just say there aren't a lot of prominient but cheap players left on the market. There are a few guys still available but the options are getting real thin for teams looking to grab a point guard. Sure guys like Shaun Livingston are still out there on the market but many doubt that he will be ready to play at anything close to 100% by the start of the season. Other's fear that he may never be able to play a completely healthy season for the rest of his young career. We'll see what happens but I highly doubt teams like GSW really want to try and execute Nellie ball with the guys still available as free agents running the point. Miami could foreseeable try and go with Mario Chalmers and Marcus Banks (who they have been trying to unload since they got him) as their main PG rotation, but if that was their best or most desired option then they would have never sought to sign guys like Dooling, Lue, etc. and wouldn't be rumored to be interested in guys like Jamaal Tinsley. Bring on the more interesting or enticing Mo Williams offers! :D


I couldnt find anything about Arroyo signing with Russia, you could be right but, Delfino signed in Russia recently, maybe you're mixing up which Carlos you read? :D
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Re: OT: Nets S&T for Dooling, NJ Paper slaughters CBA Rules 

Post#14 » by bstein14 » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:18 am

Kohl Is A Mome wrote:
bstein14 wrote:I don't see a problem with this article at all...

They had a quote from Dooling saying "I don't know what they offered the BAE"...

So its not like they're making it up, they have a direct quote.

Obviously Orlando felt that was what he was worth and would be what another team might offer so that's what they offered... even if it wasn't technically the BAE but rather paid him using bird rights.

The same thing is started all the time when a team resigns its own FA or matches a MLE offer... they say a player was signed to a MLE contract... which for all intents and purposes it is a MLE sized contract.

And the trade exception will go to Orlando... and $4.1 million over 2 years is basically what the BAE is over 2 years...


Actually thats not true, A new one is created. You can never actually trade one of those. And whether they got that quote from Dooling or stated it themselves about the BAE, thats not the point. Its irresponsible journalism to not clarify the huge error.


Yes technically a new trade exception is created but basically the tells it like it is. NJ will lose their trade exception and Orlando will gain one in the same amount...

Basically you are trading a trade exception. If you have a $10 million trade exception and you trade for a player who makes $6 million you will stay have $4 million of your trade exception left and the other team will gain the $6 million trade exception. So I don't see the problem with stating it how it was stated. I've seen many more articles written that are completely wrong or not possible under the CBA and this one at least gets the gist of everything correct.

There is no misinformation at all.

Orlando offered Dooling a BAE amount contract... Dooling was quoted in the article talking about the offer. It'd be the same thing if Atlanta offered Josh Childress a MLE amount contract offer.

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