Malik Allen: Our starting PF?

[LUKE23]

Elson and Allen are in the mix to start ahead of CV it appears, so Elson may actually end up being the player to start instead of Allen.

Elson/Allen, Allen/Elson. Not much difference. Both vet retreads that don't offer much besides "experience" or "intangibles" or whatever other cliche you want to throw out there. Either of them starting would be the worst starting PF in the NBA.

I can understand the argument if one of these guys was prime Ben Wallace on defense, even with putrid offensive contributions. But that isn't the case with either player.

[BDUB_30]

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Inside information isn't well received on these boards, so what is known is often not posted.

Also you can't go off of what is or isn't reported via Milwaukee media. Our best reporter on Bucks type info is still trying to get back into the swing of things due to his bypass surgery. The rest are complete and utter garbage. They will likely report on Media Day interviews until well into the season. They don't do a good job of forecasting anything and typically supply us with info well after it's a non issue.

maybe its because people have used the guise of " inside information " to validate their own personal opionons ..?



lets not act like random realgm posters have a problem getting credable inside information ... the problem is how those who claim to have insiders to often have used this premise to validate their own weird , personal agenda .




i mean the tj ford inside information on this board use to be flat out laughable . its intereting how " inside inofrmation " usually comes in the midst of a heated topic ..and how " inside information " usually centers around ones favorite player ....

[LUKE23]

i disagree completly with the notion that cv and allen are equaly as bad on defense .

I never stated they were equally bad, just that Allen's upgrade in D doesn't make up for the loss of offense/rebounding/passing/transition game. Allen is not a great defender. I wouldn't even call him good.

[Raptors90102]

It doesn't matter if you try on defense if you're not good at it, just the same as it's irrelevant if someone works really really hard on their shooting but it doesn't translate to games. Production is what matters.

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i disagree completly with the notion that cv and allen are equaly as bad on defense .



Allen is better as an individual ..but where allen completly SMOKES CV is with his ability to learn and implement himself into team defensive concepts !!!!! CV's court awearness , meaning knwowing and reacting to where the opposition is , is completly HORRID !


This team is working on team defesnive schemes, im sure their working on zones and skiles wants guys that have quick response times to rotations and not unaware , out of postion lazy players . !


to act like allen and cv are a wash on the defensive end , by implying that Allen tries , and cv doesnt but theyre both bad so somehow effort means nothing in your equation is extremely flawed . No sorry , effort and awarness can make an average one on one defender at least become usuable in a teams defensive schemes because u know his effort is going to at least make him AWARE !

I am jus curious as to how you know all this? Watching a bunch of games on TV doesn't tell us ANYTHING about how good or bad a player's reflexes and court awareness are. For all we know, CV might have struggled because the guards don't communicate on defense or do such a horrible job that it catches our bigs offguard and thow them off? Unless someone sits through a bunch of practices and watches players up close and personal, no one can tell how good or bad one's court awareness is. From the passes that CV had made over the past 3 years, it seems the guy has a pretty good court awareness. He knows where players and where are they going. Maybe all a guy like CV needs is a defensive system where everyone's talking and everyone's communicating so that guys know exactly what their teammates are going to do so that they are better prepared to react to the oppistion's offensive sets.

In all of this, we're forgetting that Skiles has always been fascinated by those journeymen veterans who play the yes-sir man role perfectly for Skiles to fall in love with them. It doesn't mean that Allen did beat CV out for the job, it could probably be that Skiles' vet love got Allen the nod.

[bucksbrewerspackersfan]

I think Allen or Elson starting is not the best but putting CV into the starting line up does not help him. Also who is say who is a better defender then CV (I mean look at him since when could ever to defend). Anyone of those two will be better defensive players then CV. Having more scoring options won't help this team this year in the starting line up unless you are talking about someone like Redd or even better. We need a man to play D in the paint not just Bogut and we need to mix things up. I am not a fan of Allen or Elson starting but I don't want to see CV start until he prove he can guard a toaster..

[europa]

There is no source of any information that I trust more than my own eyes.

Nothing wrong with that at all. What I've seen with my own eyes is Villanueva failing to supplant a journeyman (Skinner), an overmatched rookie (Yi) and now he may not beat out two more journeymen (Allen and Elson). That's what I've seen with my own eyes - not to mention all of the things I saw with my own eyes that should have prevented the Bucks from trading for Villanueva in the first place.

And thanks for the welcome back sis.

[raferfenix]

This has turned into a really great thread-----I only regret to hear CBQ imply that she and other insiders are reticent to post insider info on these boards due to the crybabying about what is reported. There was a pretty incredible stream of insider info coming through this board last season, and that info about the inner workings of the organization directly led to the paper bag revolt which certainly was a part of the complete shakeup of the team. It's ridiculous that a few insider reported trade scenarios that did not go through would get rid of the kind of credibility that has led to ESPN even recognizing the screwed up management structure here!

The problem is that fans are ignoring what they see with their eyes and are lying ot themsevles about what is going on with our players. This was most apparent with Mo, as everyone wished really hard that he would ahve more value to both our team and around the league than what we were being told by our insiders. Anyone remember how that turned out (and this paragraph is my official "welcome back" to you Europa )

Now, people are ignoring what they are seeing with CV. Or, more specifically, what they are reading from Bucks journalists far too lazy to write anything but what is fed to them directly from the most credible of sources (even despite their obvious biases). What we are seeing in print from what are essentially stenographers to the Bucks organization is that CV IS GETTING BEAT OUT IN CAMP!

It is not this board that is clamoring for him to get beat out, it is the Bucks organization preparing fans through their allies in the press that this is what is happening....for the second season in a row. If CV was playing like the player we all wish he could be who would easily earn a starting spot this would not be an issue, but the fact of the matter is that that clearly is not the case. Fans need to accept this instead of shooting the messengers!

[BDUB_30]

It doesn't matter if you try on defense if you're not good at it, just the same as it's irrelevant if someone works really really hard on their shooting but it doesn't translate to games. Production is what matters.

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i disagree completly with the notion that cv and allen are equaly as bad on defense .



Allen is better as an individual ..but where allen completly SMOKES CV is with his ability to learn and implement himself into team defensive concepts !!!!! CV's court awearness , meaning knwowing and reacting to where the opposition is , is completly HORRID !


This team is working on team defesnive schemes, im sure their working on zones and skiles wants guys that have quick response times to rotations and not unaware , out of postion lazy players . !


to act like allen and cv are a wash on the defensive end , by implying that Allen tries , and cv doesnt but theyre both bad so somehow effort means nothing in your equation is extremely flawed . No sorry , effort and awarness can make an average one on one defender at least become usuable in a teams defensive schemes because u know his effort is going to at least make him AWARE !

I am jus curious as to how you know all this? Watching a bunch of games on TV doesn't tell us ANYTHING about how good or bad a player's reflexes and court awareness are. For all we know, CV might have struggled because the guards don't communicate on defense or do such a horrible job that it catches our bigs offguard and thow them off? Unless someone sits through a bunch of practices and watches players up close and personal, no one can tell how good or bad one's court awareness is. From the passes that CV had made over the past 3 years, it seems the guy has a pretty good court awareness. He knows where players and where are they going. Maybe all a guy like CV needs is a defensive system where everyone's talking and everyone's communicating so that guys know exactly what their teammates are going to do so that they are better prepared to react to the oppistion's offensive sets.

In all of this, we're forgetting that Skiles has always been fascinated by those journeymen veterans who play the yes-sir man role perfectly for Skiles to fall in love with them. It doesn't mean that Allen did beat CV out for the job, it could probably be that Skiles' vet love got Allen the nod.

If watching players play the game isnt enough evidence of their abilities on the court , then i really cant imagine how anyone could ever have an opionon on the game . My opionon isnt based just on watching the game either , ive been playing it for a good 15 years , **** if not 20 now . This really isnt all that complicated , its just a game .


Their really isnt a whole lot of grey area with court awarness / reactionary times .. the same lack of court awareness that leaves CV two steps behind his rotations , is the same lack of court awareness that allows the other teams power forward to just walk into the paint for quality rebounding position . this works hand in hand .


If youre saying that because i dont sit in on practices that i couldnt get this kind of information from watching games , i beg to differ ..



But i do agree that with some coaching , and some ccountability he could increase his floor awarness .. its not like its that damn hard . Putting in some effort and being in good shape for starters would help . And how do i know charlie isnt in good shape ? Because his body hasnt changed in the time hes been in the nba . Commited players get stronger , add muscle .. Charlie is tall / lanky and lacks definition .. I seriously doubt he takes his workouts seriously if he does them at all , i dont need to be in the weight room to know this . I can watch his lack of effort , and watch how he gets winded easily and know , hes simply not in great shape .


I would just like to add that im not one of the fans that develops grudges or forever hates a player . I would like nothing more then to see charlie come around . Their is hope for him , he has some talent , we without a doubt can use him . But when i hear about Fransisco elson and Malik allen are POSSIBLY higher on the depth chart then charlie v , after what ive already witnessed from him , how can i be left with anything other then critisms for him ? Hes got a month , i mean he could easily , EASILY with some hard work really come into the season focused with a new attitude , so well see ...

[europa]

Here's another myth about Villanueva that continues to be perpetuated - the myth that he is a good passer. He has averaged a whopping 1 assist per game in his career.

1.

That's right.

1.

I'm sorry, but you cannot be called a good passer when you average 1 assist per game. He may have passing skills, but they do not and have never translated into offensive production for his teammates.

[BDUB_30]

This has turned into a really great thread-----I only regret to hear CBQ imply that she and other insiders are reticent to post insider info on these boards due to the crybabying about what is reported. There was a pretty incredible stream of insider info coming through this board last season, and that info about the inner workings of the organization directly led to the paper bag revolt which certainly was a part of the complete shakeup of the team. It's ridiculous that a few insider reported trade scenarios that did not go through would get rid of the kind of credibility

The idea that people arent sharing their " inside information " because a few are being " crybabys " is laughable . More like those who claim to have inside information arent using it because they can no longer use this to validate their own opionons because the vast majority of this forum have called them on their b.s !


Lets not try to act like inside information has only been wrong a " couple of times " .. those have perputrated their sources to somehow make their own personal opionons more credable is the problem and everyone knows it . ! It has happend so many times it not even funny .

With that being said sure their has been a ton of valuable " inside information " that has actually had a real effect on the product were getting . One has to wonder if without what you guys did with the bag revolt , if wed be preparing for another year of coach k and larry harris .. personaly i do think the bag revolt was responsible for the changes , if not solely responsible , im sure it had SOME kind of effect ..



but lets not act like people using the guise of inside information hasnt been used extensivly to validate their own personal opionons .. it has , and everyone knows it .

[LUKE23]

As a starter in his career, CV has averaged 1.4 assists in 30 minutes flat per game. That would be upper half of PF's in the league that got comparable minutes. Very few PF's have good assist totals, and if you don't believe me, you are welcome to go look. CV is a good passer, it's probably his most underrated attribute.

[BDUB_30]

Here's another myth about Villanueva that continues to be perpetuated - the myth that he is a good passer. He has averaged a whopping 1 assist per game in his career.

1.

That's right.

1.

I'm sorry, but you cannot be called a good passer when you average 1 assist per game. He may have passing skills, but they do not and have never translated into offensive production for his teammates.

yeah i didnt want to really get into it , because it seems as if some are trully dillisuinal about CV ..


but great passer ?



He does suprise you once or twice a month with a remarkable pass , but im sorry those moments are to few .......Shot selection and great passer work hand in hand .. Charlie V has a terrible shot selection , basically has no regard for the shot clock , or the plays that are being ran .. He has conistantly jacked up poor shots and broken off plays in an effort to " get his " .. that type of shot selection makes him a HORRIBLE passer ..A great passer doesnt look to jack up a shot everytime he touches the damn ball ...

[europa]

I guess I'm just not all that impressed with 1 assist per game from someone who supposedly is a good passer.

To each their own.

I wouldn't disagree that he has good passing skills. But those skills simply don't translate onto the court and benefit his team.

[BDUB_30]

As a starter in his career, CV has averaged 1.4 assists in 30 minutes flat per game. That would be upper half of PF's in the league that got comparable minutes. Very few PF's have good assist totals, and if you don't believe me, you are welcome to go look. CV is a good passer, it's probably his most underrated attribute.

man get real ...



id like to see an nba scouting report for charlie v ..



id bet you 500 bucks " GREAT PASSER " is not on that list ..in fact id bet their would be something about his inability to swing the ball ...charlie v is the kind of guy that if bogut were to be double and kick the ball out to charlie , charlie would NOT SWING the ball to the open man and instead jack up a shot with a hand in his face , or throw himself at the rim for one of his pg esque runners ...


Charlie " Magic " Villanueva with his whoppin 1.4 assists a game ...

[LUKE23]

PF's don't facilitate offense whatsoever except in rare cases. Jamison was 9th in APG at PF last year with 1.9, and he played 38 minutes a night. Even guys considered very well-rounded players like Marion (1.7 assists in 37.6 min) and Rasheed (1.7 assists in 32.2 minutes) don't get high assist totals. CV as a starter is 1.4 APG in 30.0 minutes, a very comparable rate to guys in the top 10.

But this also goes back to the fact that CV just produces better in identical minutes as a starter. Just one more reason he should be starting.

[LUKE23]

man get real ...



id like to see an nba scouting report for charlie v ..



id bet you 500 bucks " GREAT PASSER " is not on that list ..in fact id bet their would be something about his inability to swing the ball ...charlie v is the kind of guy that if bogut were to be double and kick the ball out to charlie , charlie would NOT SWING the ball to the open man and instead jack up a shot with a hand in his face , or throw himself at the rim for one of his pg esque runners ...


Charlie " Magic " Villanueva with his whoppin 1.4 assists a game ...

1. Stop putting 15 lines between paragraphs.
2. Nobody said he was Magic. I'm talking about him in terms of passing at his position, not compared to other positions.

[BDUB_30]

man get real ...



id like to see an nba scouting report for charlie v ..



id bet you 500 bucks " GREAT PASSER " is not on that list ..in fact id bet their would be something about his inability to swing the ball ...charlie v is the kind of guy that if bogut were to be double and kick the ball out to charlie , charlie would NOT SWING the ball to the open man and instead jack up a shot with a hand in his face , or throw himself at the rim for one of his pg esque runners ...


Charlie " Magic " Villanueva with his whoppin 1.4 assists a game ...

1. Stop putting 15 lines between paragraphs.
2. Nobody said he was Magic. I'm talking about him in terms of passing at his position, not compared to other positions.

1.No





2. I didnt say you did say he was Magic . Nor did i say you were comparing his abilites to OTHER postions .




Charlie v's carrer high in apg is 4 ..hes managed to do that................................3 times his entire nba carrer . If you think that makes him a great passer by ANY standard im sorry , but youre wrong .


and no , its not even 1.4 ( as if to suggest that .4 would make him a " good passer " ) ...He is a carrer 1 assist per game player ...whos only managed to even rack up 4 assists in a game 3 times his entire carrrer .. One would think a " good " passer so commited to the art of sharing the ball could just one time in his 3 year carrer manage to rack up more then 4 assists ...


Making a statistical based arguement that a guy is a great passer based on his 1apg is a serious reach !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BDUB_30]

Charlie V ranked 115th amongst forwards in ap48 = " good passer "
Zack Randolph ranked 58th amongst forwards in ap48= "absoultly amazing , point forward potential passer "



Z-Randolph is a carrer 2 apg passer . Luke , would ya call Zack a " good passer " ?



end of discussion .

[Nowak008]

I think there is a bit of info that maybe one of the insiders can clear up. Apparently late in the 06-07 season (I think while Stotts was still the coach) LK and CV got into a physical altercation. Since then there was major contempt from both CV and LK. Add that to the whole Yi circus, and the rest of the locker room problems (Bell/Simmons) there are reasons for his incredibly slow start. The first year we had him CV was arguably our best player until he got hurt.

The thing about CV is that he has shown flashes of playing great. We have one more year left with him and I would like to see what the guy can do with a full commitment with him as our starter. In the 2 years we have had him we haven't been able to give him that. Some players are confidence players. Bogut and CV are similar in the reguard that they need to be involved or they start to sulk.

If he sucks bench him, then move on.

[europa]

I'm not sure why any of the locker room problems involving Mo, Bell, Simmons, attitudes toward Redd or anything else should be used to excuse Villanueva's poor play. He stunk coming off the bench. That's on him in my opinion.