Malik Allen: Our starting PF?

[paulpressey25]

When push comes to shove, give me the guy who can play. That guy is Redd in this case.

But just as the CV trade was a mistake, do you still think we made the right decision signing Redd to that $90 million dollar contract?

Maybe this season will bear that out as a decent, albeit not great move. But for the last three years, it hasn't been a great move.

[europa]

When push comes to shove, give me the guy who can play. That guy is Redd in this case.

But just as the CV trade was a mistake, do you still think we made the right decision signing Redd to that $90 million dollar contract?

Yup. Because his contract has not been the primary problem with this team failing to improve. It's been many of the other decisions - including several awful contracts given to players who aren't as good as Redd - that threw this team's salary structure completely out of whack. Again, it's important to note that I'm not saying Redd isn't overpaid. He is. Nor does it excuse the issues that Redd himself has brought due to his style of play. But had the previous regime made smarter personnel decisions, than Redd's contract wouldn't be viewed as being such a negative. The sad part about his tenure as the starter is it's taken the team until this season to finally bring in a player who was Redd's equal in terms of talent. The bottom line is Redd is a proven, productive starter who nearly everyone around the league would agree would be no worse than a quality starter on a championship-caliber team.

You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would say that about Villanueva with a straight face.

[Raptors90102]

Just trade him to Memphis for Darrel Arthur and some cap room and be done with it. If they're going to sit CV down, he aint gonna resign with them in the off-season and also, its gonna hurt his value a lot. So just trade him to Memphis where he would fit right into Ivaroni's offense and play alongside his buddy Rudy gay in a young, upcomign team. Its better to trade him now and get some value back instead of him just walking away at the end of the year.

Conley / Lowry / crittenton
Mayo / Jaric
Rudy Gay / Warrick
CV / Darko / Warrick
Darko / Gasol / Haddadi

Ridnour / Lue / Sessions
Redd / Bell
Jefferson / Alexandre / Moute
Allen / Arthur / Elson
Bogut / Gadz / Elson

Raptors fans....get out of here! LOL...

Don't go depleteing our team with this nutty trade scenario that does not help us out.. Worry about your own team if you are presenting stuff like this. I do like Arthur though..But all playing aside...I don't know.

If you move Charlie, which I am not opossed to do if I am the Bucks GM, you package him with a guy like Damon Jones and Dan Gadzuric and get multiple players back like Darko and Arthur and Kinsey or guys like that.

You don't trade him for just one rookie. This team needs multiple pieces to replace Mason, Simmons and Williams. I don't know where you all think our scoring is going to come from from our second unit?

But this scenario is shaky but intriguing. Especially with a guy like Darrell Arthur who I like but whose character took a big hit with his non-complice to league rules, and Charlie V's character is spotless.

On that basis alone, the Bucks would not make that deal I persume. I would as I am not that big a stickler on that sort of thing if you can play. But they wouldn't. And not to mention that kidney or other medical ailment other GM's were wary about on draft day.

I like Darrell Arthur and I think the Grizzlies would be a good trade partner. But we'll see. Charlie needs to know who he is and find his niche so he can be paid for it fairly. Right now, what is he?
We still don't know...

What is important for him is minutes...and focus. On a team that has a earn your minutes policy this might not be a type of pressurized enviorment for a laid back cat like Villanueva with a smooth game.
Arthur from what I've seen works...and works...and works.

Charlie blends in...and might not like to be pushed and challenged constantly...In a contract year he had better be somewhere where he is comfortable personality wise.

We'll see. Thank your for sharing....

MBBOT, incase you didn't notice, I have posting on this board eversince I joined realgm a couple of years ago. I am a Bucks fan too. Just cuz my nick says Raptors doesn't mean I can't a fan of the bucks.

An no, my trade suggestion was not to deplete the Bucks. Its just aimed at the simple fact that if CV is indeed relegated to the bench, his value takes a further hit meaning that we might not be able to get anything in return AT ALL! The suggestion was for the benefit of the Bucks as we certainly don't want any player walk away without getting us something valuable in return EVEN if its CV we're talking about.

As for your suggestion, if Jones doesn't want to play in waukee, what makes you think he'd want to play in Memphis? Also, CV's value isn't high enough for the Bucks to be able to package Gadz with him.. get whatever you can and be done with it, otherwise you might get fcuk all at the end when CV walks away next year.

[Rockmaninoff]

This may be a moot point....

I can see Skiles playing RJ at Power Forward.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=802531

Small ball returns....

Of course he will. Skills loves small ball because it's generally more efficient. Jefferson will be his Luol Deng.

On the topic of this Allen or Villanueva business, what the team should have done, if they weren't going to go after a Sean Williams type, is resign Michael Ruffin.

Ruffin has a better rebounding rate than Villanueva and Allen, and is a much better defender than both of them. I don't care about him not having a jumpshot, because he can be the low post floater when Bogut plays high, and then CV could come in and play high and 3 point line, with Bogut low.

Ruffin was one of our best players last year and the team was better on the court with him. Check the winscores if you don't believe me.

I guess Skiles just loves his frontcourt veterans, who can shoot the mid-range bailout jumper and will always fill the right spaces, so much, that King Hustle Michael Ruffin was expendable. Too bad.

[Rockmaninoff]

When push comes to shove, give me the guy who can play. That guy is Redd in this case.

But just as the CV trade was a mistake, do you still think we made the right decision signing Redd to that $90 million dollar contract?

Maybe this season will bear that out as a decent, albeit not great move. But for the last three years, it hasn't been a great move.

I don't know if this question is only for Europe, but the answer is no. It wasn't the right decision.

Superstar players and perennial all-stars are supposed to get those contracts. Maybe the organization thought that he could develop into that, but they shouldn't have. Considering that he was a 2nd round pick due to his lack of natural athleticism.

An organization should never allow a player to hold them hostage financially, unless that player is in the Top 20 players in the entire league. Those players are worth the money. Every other player besides those, is expendable in the big picture. If a player is merely a good starter, then let him go or work out a sign and trade if that player demands too much money.

Don't run the organization like a senatorial campaign. To hell with what the casual fans will think of the move. An organization can find a replacement for that 'good starter' easily. It's the Top 20 guys who are important and need to be paid outrageously.

[old skool]

sKiles played Allen fewer minutes than any other NBA coach Allen has played for. But sKiles did use Allen in key situations, because the Bulls played better when Allen was on the court. I think that sKiles realizes that Allen performs best against other second unit players. I doubt if Allen will ever see even the number of minutes that Yi saw last season.

As for CV, I think that CV is the Bucks best interior passer/receiver. He has good hands for his size and can pass or catch while moving.

oLd sKool

[aboveAverage]

CV is our best inside scorer by far. His rebounding is decent, but his bad defense and lack of effort does not allow Skiles or any coach to give him many minutes. I still think we are a better team when CV is our starting PF, simply because of the offense and rebounding he provides. But if his bad defense offsets that, then Skiles has no choice than to play someone who will provide a defensive presence.

[raferfenix]

I'm hoping we go with a Jefferson/Alexander tandem a lot this year. RJ comparing Joe to Kenyon Martin made me hopeful that the summer league was not indicative of anything, and I'm hoping that we can go with a lineup that will be high effort and very athletic on both D and on the break.

[smauss]

It's great to have my PC back! As I've stated before I think eventually Elson will start at the 4 and CV will be our sixth man. If or likely when we play small ball RJ at the 4, Redd at the 3, CB at the 2. If CV can't deal with being a 6th man, then he's gone!

[AussieBuck]

Bogut better become a monster rebounder if we are going with small ball for any decent length of time.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

When you take all of that, plus the fact the Bucks do need some scoring off the bench, it makes sense for Villanueva to be the sixth man. It's probably his best role in the league anyway. Whether he'll accept is the question. He didn't accept it last season and played like absolute garbage. Hopefully he'll have a better attitude if it happens this season.

It's one thing to be benched by Krystkowiak because your rookie coach have orders to start (and play big minutes) rookie from China who is confused and not ready for NBA.

It's completly diferent thing to be benched by Skiles because your well known coach wants to have scoring from bench (at least that's what your coach tell you).

Also, CV didn't complain about not starting. That is not important. He complained about not having big minutes. That will be diferent this year because even if Allen start he will not play nearly as much as Yi did. Yi played that much in attempt to keep promise to his manager and people from China. It was mess like hell.

There were many games when CV outplayed Yi in first half and still got less minutes in 2nd half. THAT'S what upset CV. Those games also hapened during our golden days early in season. I talked about that when that hapened and I talk about that ever since because that was when Krystkowiak lost his team.

LK did NOT have orders to start Yi over Villanueva. We've been over that issue many times. He also wasn't ordered to play him "big" minutes. He wasn't ordered to play him ANY minutes actually. Senator Kohl promised that if Yi didn't average at least 20mpg over games he was healthy enough to play in that Senator Kohl would grant a trade request.

Many people expected Simmons and Villanueva to be the starters last season, being the quasi-incumbents. Simmons and Villanueva themselves expected that. However, they both allowed themselves to be beat out for the starting spots in training camp. Simmons was still dealing with not being in the best of condition after missing a year plus, but Villanueva really had no excuse.

As for what to do with Villanueva this season, I do think he has such potential to be a very potent offensive weapon (if we can get him to not shoot threes) that it behooves this team, with its current makeup, to try and play him at least 28mpg. As I've said recently, I do think the best way to use him would be as a 28-30mpg 6th man that comes into the game around the 6 minute mark in the 1st and 3rd quarter to reignite the offense.

Using him like that would allow us to keep our rotation better balanced offensively, since Villanueva can get more of his minutes overlapping with more of the scoring challenged bench players rather than some of the starters who are adept at scoring (Redd, Jefferson, Bogut) especially relative to their bench counterparts.

I don't see why we can't get Villanueva to buy into something like that. Talk to him about how he can go for the 6th man of the year award getting those kind of minutes in that role.

But frankly, as BDUB, europa, and others have touched on, if Villanueva can't or won't accept that type of role, then there is no point anymore in hoping for any type of future for Villanueva here.

[bigkurty]

Totally agree with GAD here. Hell even Manu came off the bench and he is arguably better than ANY player on the Bucks team.

[Sigra]

LK did NOT have orders to start Yi over Villanueva. We've been over that issue many times. He also wasn't ordered to play him "big" minutes. He wasn't ordered to play him ANY minutes actually. Senator Kohl promised that if Yi didn't average at least 20mpg over games he was healthy enough to play in that Senator Kohl would grant a trade request.

I don't believe in that theory. If that is true then Krystkowiak is idiot who needs help. Normal person would never play Yi that much unless there is some deal under table.

I know that you (maybe somebody else as well) told us about what you heard. But after this summer of failure there is no inside sources that I trust anymore. Sorry

And honestly I am tired of that kind of "argument". Europa use it and you use it as well. This is forum. Argue whatever you want but with logic. Not with "I was told it was like that so I am right and you are wrong". There is no source of any information that I trust more than my own eyes.

[Rockmaninoff]

Since this is thread regarding starting Power Forwards, I thought it would be an appropriate place to give a shout out to PP25, regarding the news that Amir Johnson is now the Pistons starter at that position. I told you he was eventually going to replace Mcdyess. I just didn't think it would be this soon.

Unfortunately, the Pistons still have the best starting 4 in the Central Division. The kid is going to be an athletic, defensive, rebounding beast. Now they got their new Ben Wallace. And, they can bring Mcdyess, Maxiell (who I would guess is now trade bait), and Brown off the bench, and use them situationally against certain matchups. Then they also have Stuckey as 6th man.

They were my early pick for best record in the East. I'll also say that they will represent the East in the NBA Finals. Were is that season prediction thread anyway?

[AussieBuck]

Totally agree with GAD here. Hell even Manu came off the bench and he is arguably better than ANY player on the Bucks team.

Arguably? Do you mean while he is injured? Manu is way better than any Buck.

[paulpressey25]

Since this is thread regarding starting Power Forwards, I thought it would be an appropriate place to give a shout out to PP25, regarding the news that Amir Johnson is now the Pistons starter at that position.

Oh no. The world is ending. After reading your post I went over the Pistons board. They are jubilant over there, highlighting things like how Amir's rebound rate was the best on the team (forgetting this was a guy who averaged 3pts and 3rpg)

I'd rather have Amir than CV if only because I think Amir could be a really good shotblocker. But right now I can't see Amir being more than a run of the mill journeyman guy.

Edit: Amir Johnson in his first start tonight. 18 minutes, 2 points, 4 rebounds, 5 fouls. Sounds like a Gadzuric stat line.

[carmelbrownqueen]

Doesn't this sound familiar with the talk of CV coming off the bench to provide a scoring punch? LK tried that last season, and it sounds like this is a definite consideration for him this season. Oh and before someone points out that this is just speculation by the MJS, let's remember that they don't speculate they throw out hints of what they have been told only (their reporters aren't imaginative enough to speculate on anything when it comes to the Bucks.)

For all of CV's talent, if he can't beat our Allen and Elson by the time the season starts then again that says more about him than about the coach. Just because CV has the talent doesn't mean he should be given the start. Sounds like at least two coaches and an ex-GM might be thinking the same things when it comes to him. We'll see what happens....

One area of focus will undoubtedly be the power forward position, where the Bucks might take a look at Malik Allen and Francisco Elson as the starter and bring Charlie Villanueva off the bench to provide some scoring punch. The Bucks are also thinking that bringing Villanueva off the bench would allow him to avoid early foul trouble and enhance his chances of being a finisher in the fourth quarter.

“We may look at a couple different things,” Skiles said. “I’m not going to overplay anybody this week, that’s for sure. I’m not going to do that. Part of the challenge to me is I feel that I’ve got a good feel for these guys now in this (practice) gym. Now I’ve got to get a good feel for them in the Bradley Center, and the Palace, and. . . . So I’ll play a lot of guys.”

Skiles does warn about one thing, however.

“I wouldn’t read anything into what we do lineup-wise,” Skiles said. “We’re going to look at some different things and see how it works. We already have some things in our mind about some nice combinations we’ve seen and we’ll see.”
Source: http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=802787

[El Duderino]

As for what to do with Villanueva this season, I do think he has such potential to be a very potent offensive weapon (if we can get him to not shoot threes) that it behooves this team, with its current makeup, to try and play him at least 28mpg. As I've said recently, I do think the best way to use him would be as a 28-30mpg 6th man that comes into the game around the 6 minute mark in the 1st and 3rd quarter to reignite the offense.

Using him like that would allow us to keep our rotation better balanced offensively, since Villanueva can get more of his minutes overlapping with more of the scoring challenged bench players rather than some of the starters who are adept at scoring (Redd, Jefferson, Bogut) especially relative to their bench counterparts.

That sounds very reasonable to me and i doubt Villanueva would complain if in the end he's getting consistent minutes. Who starts is far less important than how many minutes any player gets.

Then again, i'd assume that if Charlie refuses to spend more time around the paint on offense and doesn't show at least some effort on defense, he'll land in Skiles dog house. Of all the players on the roster, he's at the top for me in regards to Skiles ability to change attitudes of players needing it.

[carmelbrownqueen]

especially since his shortcomings can no longer be considered rookie mistakes) then he doesn't deserve half the support on this board that he gets.

You act like people here are clamoring for the Bucks to lock up Villanueva to an extension or that many feel Charlie is some really good player. The vast vast majority on this board that i've seen thought PF was a spot that they wanted to be upgraded this offseason and wouldn't have shed a single tear if Villanueva had been shipped out in a trade that helped upgrade the roster.

All i see is nobody wanting to watch Malik Allen playing 25 plus minutes a game given he sucks, nothing more to it than that. Anyone watching the Bucks has seen that Charlie has been miserable defensively and that he spends to much time jacking up threes, very few here would disagree about either of those major weak areas in his game or that they are attributed to him being young. He's very soft and everyone/nearly everyone here knows that, it's not some special revelation that only a few can see.

Villanueva is one player where i'm very happy to see Skiles as our head coach. Coach needs to pound into Charlie's head to get away from the three point line and get back in the paint, or get ready to find yourself watching more from the bench. Same for defense. Villanueva is so bad defensively that no coach on the planet could make him even just an average defender. If Skiles though can get Charlie to where he's say only below average on defense (a tall task indeed), his ability to score and rebound decently would make him worthy of roughly 30mpg until next season when hopefully a quality replacement can be found.

If though Villanueva flat out refuses to heed the demands of Skiles, i don't doubt his PT will shrivel up and he'll get erratic minutes. If that ends up being the case, oh well, Skiles can't lay down certain demands of players and then back down if they ignore those demands.

First let me start with the thought of having Malik Allen start. As I stated in my original post I don't necessarily want either Malik Allen OR Franscisco Elson to start, but let's get real here. If LK was willing to start a rookie and Skiles is seriously considering starting one of two players who are not as "talented" as Charlie Villanueva then it isn't the coaches fault! Charlie Villanueva has a lot of natural ability and if he ever got his head into the game and stopped trying to be Reggie Miller part two (or more like Tim Thomas for us) then he might be more successful. He doesn't put in the consistent effort on either side of the floor. And if the coaching staff looks at the more talented player and says: "we would rather start the guy most on here agree sucks" then that's on CV. If Skiles says lets give Elson (who gave us a hint even before his contract was signed that there was discussion of him potentially starting) or Malik Allen the starting nod then isn't Skiles doing exactly what we have been begging for? Isn't the message clear that we aren't giving him the start if he doesn't play the right way? Many on here want to give CV the starting job even when he isn't earning it and the lessor player is outperforming him, and I can't agree with that. If CV earns it then he starts. If he doesn't then she shouldn't. Seems pretty simple to me.

CV needed to come in there playing like he had everything to prove instead of playing like he should be given the starting job based on his underutilized talent. CV knew when Skiles was hired that it would be an uphill climb for him to get those minutes and the starting job many want to give him, and it doesn't sound like he has stepped up to the challenge. If he had, then we wouldn't even need to have this discussion.

I told many Bucks fans on this board even BEFORE we traded for Charlie that the guy liked to shoot from the outside, lacked the motivation to improve (his body and his game), lacked focus, and was a horrible defender. Many on here argued with me presenting all sorts of "stats" saying that I was wrong. Couple of seasons later, many of you are singing the same tune I was pre-trade (surprise surprise). If this team is going to improve defensively, then we can't have three poor defenders in the starting lineup. The Bucks right now are willing to give Redd anoher chance to prove he can play on both ends, and they grabbed Ridnour (not known to be a defensive stopper either) to improve team play and ball movement... that means we will have to sacrifice a decent starting offense only player (CV) in order to throw a little more defense into the starting lineup.

My last point is that CV has had some really good coaches throughout his career that have tried to "pound" into his head that he should play this or that way.. and he hasn't responded. Skiles isn't known for his communication skills and I can imagine that he got frustrated with CV very early on. The messages being sent to CV have been attempted various times over the years and he seems content with good stats as oppsed to consistent and improving play. He is what he is, and until he plays the way he is supposed to because he has a DESIRE to be better then his best position on most times will be coming off the bench as instant offense.

[carmelbrownqueen]

No argument can be made that CV's best role for this team is off the bench. CV has always played better basketball as a starter, and is no question a better basketball player than Malik Allen. It's really a no brainer to have him start. And people really can't say they aren't a CV hater, but then turn around and say Malik Allen should start over him. It's freaking Malik Allen!!! It's not like we're saying CV should be starting over David West here.

Allen isn't good. If he was a lockdown defender or elite rebounder, I can see it. He's neither.

CV has never really embraced (read: tried to embrace) his role of coming off the bench. If he would try and accept his role then I think he would be really good as a back up PF.