Malik Allen: Our starting PF?

[carmelbrownqueen]

CV is like Van Horn. He's only good when he's starting. Even though he'd be a great sixth man, if you want his best and his hardest play, you have to start him.

IF you have to start CV for him to give effort even if its better for team to come off bench then that says it all. He doesn't have to love it but a true player would take the challenge and shoot for 6th man of the year - CV has the talent & skill set to be that. He'll never make all star as a starter.

But if he sulks for any reason - sit his ass.

Well said.

[carmelbrownqueen]

As an outsider looking in, feel free to ignore me, but if you want Villanueva to come off the bench, and think that it'll better the team if he does so.......fine, but start Mbah A Moute instead. I say this mainly because I know what Malik Allen does and doesn't do, and a potentially overmatched rookie gives you more than Malik does. The players more talented than he - namely Villanueva and Mbah A Moute - should always take the court before Malik does, because Malik only has one skill - the jumpshot. And even then he has to hit 50% of them to be effective, because he never draws a foul shot.

There's no justification for starting Allen over Villanueva, because Allen does NOT rectify Charlie's flaws, and nor does he have the strengths.

Thanks for your input. The Bucks are high on Mbah a Moute, but probably want a more experienced player to start. When this blog article was posted our newspaper had failed to update it to the point where it read correctly. Allen and Elson are being considered for the starting PF spot, not just Allen.

Also there is plenty justification for starting a lessor player over Villaneuva, the problem is nobody necessarily wants to go with that option IF it can be avoided.

[carmelbrownqueen]

CV's best role with this team is coming off the bench. Unfortunately, CV is unwilling and many of his diehard supporters are unwilling to admit that is his best use on this team.

Do you think you could list even one person on this forum who is a "diehard supporter" of CV? Honestly I don't think anyone on this forum even likes CV. Unless thinking that he should start over our other complete and utter garbage at PF is a "diehard supporter", I'm not buying it. Not a big deal, I was just curious if these "diehard supporters" actually exist or not.

There are plenty of CV supporters on this board who like him a great deal. Again, if CV can't beat out "complete and utter garbage" players to get the starting PF spot then that says more about him then them. I am not in favor of giving him the starting nod just because he has talent that he doesn't consistently use. If he doesn't play on the level where the coaching staff says the better player came in and secured his position as the starter then he should come off the bench.

[carmelbrownqueen]

Just trade him to Memphis for Darrel Arthur and some cap room and be done with it. If they're going to sit CV down, he aint gonna resign with them in the off-season and also, its gonna hurt his value a lot. So just trade him to Memphis where he would fit right into Ivaroni's offense and play alongside his buddy Rudy gay in a young, upcomign team. Its better to trade him now and get some value back instead of him just walking away at the end of the year.

Conley / Lowry / crittenton
Mayo / Jaric
Rudy Gay / Warrick
CV / Darko / Warrick
Darko / Gasol / Haddadi

Ridnour / Lue / Sessions
Redd / Bell
Jefferson / Alexandre / Moute
Allen / Arthur / Elson
Bogut / Gadz / Elson

They have explored trading CV, and if the right mix of players can be obtained then he still could end up in someone else's uni.

[carmelbrownqueen]

You're still missing the point. Allen is a lot worse than Villanueva.

Not defensively. Villanueva is quite possibly the worst defensive player in the entire league. He is that bad. Allen isn't very good but he will be willing to work defensively (even if he fails most of the time) whereas Villanueva doesn't give effort and is absolutely putrid. Priority No. 1 for Skiles has to be improving this team's defense and effort and it might be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to do those things with Villanueva in the starting lineup since he is the worst culprit remaining from last season's team in those two areas.

It's not a surprise that Skiles might be pondering starting someone other than Villanueva at PF. Villanueva is the anti-Skiles (frankly he's the anti-anyone if that head coach cares about things like effort, motivation and defense), but I thought it would be Elson who got the nod before Allen. But Skiles' familiarity with Allen may be the mitigating factor here.

When you take all of that, plus the fact the Bucks do need some scoring off the bench, it makes sense for Villanueva to be the sixth man. It's probably his best role in the league anyway. Whether he'll accept is the question. He didn't accept it last season and played like absolute garbage. Hopefully he'll have a better attitude if it happens this season.

Welcome back.

[carmelbrownqueen]

When you take all of that, plus the fact the Bucks do need some scoring off the bench, it makes sense for Villanueva to be the sixth man. It's probably his best role in the league anyway. Whether he'll accept is the question. He didn't accept it last season and played like absolute garbage. Hopefully he'll have a better attitude if it happens this season.

It's one thing to be benched by Krystkowiak because your rookie coach have orders to start (and play big minutes) rookie from China who is confused and not ready for NBA.

It's completly diferent thing to be benched by Skiles because your well known coach wants to have scoring from bench (at least that's what your coach tell you).

Also, CV didn't complain about not starting. That is not important. He complained about not having big minutes. That will be diferent this year because even if Allen start he will not play nearly as much as Yi did. Yi played that much in attempt to keep promise to his manager and people from China. It was mess like hell.

There were many games when CV outplayed Yi in first half and still got less minutes in 2nd half. THAT'S what upset CV. Those games also hapened during our golden days early in season. I talked about that when that hapened and I talk about that ever since because that was when Krystkowiak lost his team.

CV didn't complain about starting? CV definitely sulked on the bench, failed to try when he did get in the game, and complained often and to everyone who would listen within the Bucks org about his lost starting job. He did not take coming off the bench in stride and did not want to play a role if it meant sacrificing his starting position.

[Raptors90102]

^^ As far as I remember, CV's major complain was playing time and not the starting job. He clearly mentioned a couple of times that he would like to see more PT and it didnt matter whether he started or came off the bench as long as the minutes were there.

[LUKE23]

^^ As far as I remember, CV's major complain was playing time and not the starting job. He clearly mentioned a couple of times that he would like to see more PT and it didnt matter whether he started or came off the bench as long as the minutes were there.

This is accurate.

Bottom line-CV is a better player than Allen, so he should be seeing significantly more minutes than Allen. It's easier to do that if he's starting. He's a better scorer, rebounder, passer. Allen is a better defender, but is not anywhere close to a great defender.

The decision is simple: CV should start.

[carmelbrownqueen]

^^ As far as I remember, CV's major complain was playing time and not the starting job. He clearly mentioned a couple of times that he would like to see more PT and it didnt matter whether he started or came off the bench as long as the minutes were there.

More than one of our insiders have posted information regarding how CV wanted to start and asked to be traded last season.

[LUKE23]

More than one of our insiders have posted information regarding how CV wanted to start and asked to be traded last season.

1. Very few "insider info" has ever been proven correct on this board. In fact, there has been a vast majority of information that has been stated as inside info that ended up not happening or being completely inaccurate.

2. Every player in the NBA wants to start. If a player doesn't want to start, then I don't want him on the roster.

3. Half the roster apparently asked to be traded last season, from the "insider info". It's probably because the coach was horrible, the chemistry was horrible, and the team was losing games.

Last year is irrelevant to me. We have a new coach, new system, and a vastly different roster. Looking at this years roster, CV should be the starter.

[carmelbrownqueen]

Believe whatever you like.

[LUKE23]

Wow, that's quite a great response to my points. I could care less what happened last season, it's an entire new team this year from top to bottom, save a few core players. From what people said last year, Yi, Simmons, Mo, Redd, CV, and Bell all requested trades. True or not, don't really care. I care about this season with this roster.

The people that are clamoring for Allen to start are ignoring the fact that he doesn't bring anything to the roster. Yes, he's a slight defensive upgrade to CV at PF. However, he's a downgrade at scoring, rebounding, passing, and running the floor, and the upgrade in defense doesn't make up for that.

[Raptors90102]

Maybe the move to relagate CV to the bench has been solely taken to shore up the bench scoring and has nothing to do with the effort CV's been putting in (or lack thereof?).. For all we now, CV has been realy good in camp, but Skiles wants to do a Ben Gordon with them considering how offensively challenged our bench is. Who knows, perhaps it was CV's good showing in training camp that convinced Skiles that CV can carry the scoring load for the second unit?

Remember, no "inside sources" or new articles have mentioned anything about CV lacking effort or being in poor shape or struggling with Skiles' system. For all we know, Skiles likes what he sees in CV and wants to provide a scoring punch for the bench. Perhaps Skiles thought that RJ, Redd and Bogut would require touches and there isn't enough ball to go around if CV is added to the starting lineup? and he can't bench Bogut, Redd or RJ so the only logical choice was CV? Or maybe CV really is taking it easy in training camp and let Allen beat him out. We just don't know whats the definte reason for the move or whether CV perfomed well in training camp or not.

[carmelbrownqueen]

Wow, that's quite a great response to my points. I could care less what happened last season, it's an entire new team this year from top to bottom, save a few core players. From what people said last year, Yi, Simmons, Mo, Redd, CV, and Bell all requested trades. True or not, don't really care. I care about this season with this roster.

The people that are clamoring for Allen to start are ignoring the fact that he doesn't bring anything to the roster. Yes, he's a slight defensive upgrade to CV at PF. However, he's a downgrade at scoring, rebounding, passing, and running the floor, and the upgrade in defense doesn't make up for that.

I don't think there is a fan on this board that is "clamoring" for Allen or even Elson to start. This thread was started with Allen as the main guy we were talking about receiving consideration for the starting spot and then an update on the article posted by MJS indicated that they are considering a couple of guys (Allen and Elson) as the starting PF's for this team. Two lessor talents that at least try on defense while CV apparently will not. Also, despite all the things that CV does well, he isn't the guaranteed starter at the PF spot for a reason.

[LUKE23]

It doesn't matter if you try on defense if you're not good at it, just the same as it's irrelevant if someone works really really hard on their shooting but it doesn't translate to games. Production is what matters.

Allen is a minor defensive upgrade to CV. He can't block shots and he's getting up there in age so his lateral quickness isn't getting any better. We all know that CV needs to put more effort into defense, however, when analyzing the two players, CV brings more to the table. He rebounds at a better rate, he has a lot more ways to hurt you scoring the ball, he's a more gifted passer, and he's a better athlete.

If we had better options to throw out there at PF, fine. But we don't.

[crkone]

As long as we don't play 5 bench players at once, I don't care about a scoring option on the bench. We can always have one of CV, Redd, RJ, or Bogut on the floor to compensate and draw double teams. Let the player that shows in training camp he brings the most to the table start. Make a chart:
Example:
CV
Offense +1
Defense -1
Rebounding +1
Passing +1
Allen
Offense 0
Defense 0
Rebounding 0
Passing 0
I like to use the card counting method.

[carmelbrownqueen]

Maybe the move to relagate CV to the bench has been solely taken to shore up the bench scoring and has nothing to do with the effort CV's been putting in (or lack thereof?).. For all we now, CV has been realy good in camp, but Skiles wants to do a Ben Gordon with them considering how offensively challenged our bench is. Who knows, perhaps it was CV's good showing in training camp that convinced Skiles that CV can carry the scoring load for the second unit?

Remember, no "inside sources" or new articles have mentioned anything about CV lacking effort or being in poor shape or struggling with Skiles' system. For all we know, Skiles likes what he sees in CV and wants to provide a scoring punch for the bench. Perhaps Skiles thought that RJ, Redd and Bogut would require touches and there isn't enough ball to go around if CV is added to the starting lineup? and he can't bench Bogut, Redd or RJ so the only logical choice was CV? Or maybe CV really is taking it easy in training camp and let Allen beat him out. We just don't know whats the definte reason for the move or whether CV perfomed well in training camp or not.

Inside information isn't well received on these boards, so what is known is often not posted.

Also you can't go off of what is or isn't reported via Milwaukee media. Our best reporter on Bucks type info is still trying to get back into the swing of things due to his bypass surgery. The rest are complete and utter garbage. They will likely report on Media Day interviews until well into the season. They don't do a good job of forecasting anything and typically supply us with info well after it's a non issue.

[showtimesam]

I think CV coming off the bench just makes sense for this team. As Raptor said, the starting unit has strong scoring punch already with redd, rj, and Bogut. CV could be very valuable getting 30 minutes or so per game off the bench.

Although I do wish we could acquire someone slightly better than allen before the season started.

[carmelbrownqueen]

It doesn't matter if you try on defense if you're not good at it, just the same as it's irrelevant if someone works really really hard on their shooting but it doesn't translate to games. Production is what matters.

Allen is a minor defensive upgrade to CV. He can't block shots and he's getting up there in age so his lateral quickness isn't getting any better. We all know that CV needs to put more effort into defense, however, when analyzing the two players, CV brings more to the table. He rebounds at a better rate, he has a lot more ways to hurt you scoring the ball, he's a more gifted passer, and he's a better athlete.

If we had better options to throw out there at PF, fine. But we don't.

Elson and Allen are in the mix to start ahead of CV it appears, so Elson may actually end up being the player to start instead of Allen.

[BDUB_30]

It doesn't matter if you try on defense if you're not good at it, just the same as it's irrelevant if someone works really really hard on their shooting but it doesn't translate to games. Production is what matters.

.

i disagree completly with the notion that cv and allen are equaly as bad on defense .



Allen is better as an individual ..but where allen completly SMOKES CV is with his ability to learn and implement himself into team defensive concepts !!!!! CV's court awearness , meaning knwowing and reacting to where the opposition is , is completly HORRID !


This team is working on team defesnive schemes, im sure their working on zones and skiles wants guys that have quick response times to rotations and not unaware , out of postion lazy players . !


to act like allen and cv are a wash on the defensive end , by implying that Allen tries , and cv doesnt but theyre both bad so somehow effort means nothing in your equation is extremely flawed . No sorry , effort and awarness can make an average one on one defender at least become usuable in a teams defensive schemes because u know his effort is going to at least make him AWARE !