MO-Will Sells out the Bucks

[Newz]

Mo Nation is always good for some laughs. I want Mo to take accountability for himself... Don't place the blame on anyone else but himself. He's accountable for how he played. If he thought he needed to play better defense, then he should have tried. The most irritating thing about him was his complete and utter lack of effort to do anything on the defensive end.

Mo haters are always good for some laughs. Mo gave more effort than anyone else on the team while he was with the Bucks, no one ever questioned his effort.

I just find it amusing that when Bogut came out and said pretty much the same thing that Mo said, everyone thought it was great that he 'called out' past coaches and pointed out the things that were wrong here... Mo does it and all of the sudden he is a bad guy.

[jerrod]

Mo Nation is always good for some laughs. I want Mo to take accountability for himself... Don't place the blame on anyone else but himself. He's accountable for how he played. If he thought he needed to play better defense, then he should have tried. The most irritating thing about him was his complete and utter lack of effort to do anything on the defensive end.

why would he do that? despite what you think, it wasn't all mo and cv's fault.

i told you guys, people start screaming mo nation the second they don't want to defend their statements

[smauss]

Just so everyone understands my position in the "blame game":

I do not blame Mo & CV for the Bucks poor defense the past 2 year or so.
I do blame Mo & CV for each of them playing poor individual defense.
I do blame the previous organization for how they coached and implemented team defense and for the players they acquired in order to play team defense.
I will blame the coaches and organization for the same reasons if team defense does not improve.
I will blame players if/when they don't put forth the effort to play individual defense.

[unklchuk]

"why would he do that? despite what you think, it wasn't all mo and cv's fault."

He would do that because he's irrepressible Mo Williams buoyed further by a big contract. Because he doesn't look for the big picture; he sees things Mo Williams style. Like many of us, he's just limited in what he understands.

No way did she say it was all Mo and CV's fault. Mo Nation and MoHation should stop imagining old and tired arguments where they no longer exist, no longer are relevant.

If you look again, you'll see that CBQ is putting forth a moderate argument - one that shouldn't really offend your Mo sensitivities. I think I see some moderation in the words of Mo Nation.

If that's the case, then this discussion is spurious. If not, and you're bored, then by all means have at it...

[carmelbrownqueen]

Mo Nation is always good for some laughs. I want Mo to take accountability for himself... Don't place the blame on anyone else but himself. He's accountable for how he played. If he thought he needed to play better defense, then he should have tried. The most irritating thing about him was his complete and utter lack of effort to do anything on the defensive end.

Mo haters are always good for some laughs. Mo gave more effort than anyone else on the team while he was with the Bucks, no one ever questioned his effort.

I just find it amusing that when Bogut came out and said pretty much the same thing that Mo said, everyone thought it was great that he 'called out' past coaches and pointed out the things that were wrong here... Mo does it and all of the sudden he is a bad guy.

Mo gave great effort offensively.

If you go back and read what I wrote again, my comments had nothing to do with him criticizing past coaches but more that I wanted him to take responsibility for his own failure to play defense. He never played any semblance of defense on this team. I just wish he would take responsibility for that. His comments didn't expose the coaches because it was apparent to the entire league that we weren't a good defensive team. Also, we have all talked about defense being a lip service concept rather than something that was executed.. again, my thing with him is just take responsibility for himself. Take ownership for his own play, and if he talks about the coaches in addition to talking about his own shortcomings then I wouldn't have a problem with that.

[paul]

Just so everyone understands my position in the "blame game":

I do not blame Mo & CV for the Bucks poor defense the past 2 year or so.
I do blame Mo & CV for each of them playing poor individual defense.
I do blame the previous organization for how they coached and implemented team defense and for the players they acquired in order to play team defense.
I will blame the coaches and organization for the same reasons if team defense does not improve.
I will blame players if/when they don't put forth the effort to play individual defense.

Yep, a perfect summation smauss. If team defense is breaking down via either poorly taught or executed systems then thats one thing, but if a couple of guys (we all know who they are/were) are just plain 'dogging it' on the defensive end then that's another thing entirely.

[carmelbrownqueen]

Mo Nation is always good for some laughs. I want Mo to take accountability for himself... Don't place the blame on anyone else but himself. He's accountable for how he played. If he thought he needed to play better defense, then he should have tried. The most irritating thing about him was his complete and utter lack of effort to do anything on the defensive end.

why would he do that? despite what you think, it wasn't all mo and cv's fault.

i told you guys, people start screaming mo nation the second they don't want to defend their statements

Who said I thought anything was entirely their fault? I never said that.

Whenever I have made a comment about CV, Mo, or Bogut most of those comments have been dismissed as some sort of TJ Ford love. It appears it's not allowable on this board to criticize the play of any particular player without being considered a member of some other players "Nation" so it is what it is. When I first joined it wasn't like that... but that's the way it's been for years nothing we can do about it.

Matter o'fact, I have been criticized when I haven't been part of the negative majority when it came to a number of players like: Ray Allen, Desmond Mason, TJ Ford, and Michael Redd... so you can't win on this board when it comes to that type of stuff. Right now I consider myself a member of Mbah a Moute Nation.... I'm sure I will get criticized for that soon enough.

[Newz]

Mo Nation is always good for some laughs. I want Mo to take accountability for himself... Don't place the blame on anyone else but himself. He's accountable for how he played. If he thought he needed to play better defense, then he should have tried. The most irritating thing about him was his complete and utter lack of effort to do anything on the defensive end.

Mo haters are always good for some laughs. Mo gave more effort than anyone else on the team while he was with the Bucks, no one ever questioned his effort.

I just find it amusing that when Bogut came out and said pretty much the same thing that Mo said, everyone thought it was great that he 'called out' past coaches and pointed out the things that were wrong here... Mo does it and all of the sudden he is a bad guy.

Mo gave great effort offensively.

If you go back and read what I wrote again, my comments had nothing to do with him criticizing past coaches but more that I wanted him to take responsibility for his own failure to play defense. He never played any semblance of defense on this team. I just wish he would take responsibility for that. His comments didn't expose the coaches because it was apparent to the entire league that we weren't a good defensive team. Also, we have all talked about defense being a lip service concept rather than something that was executed.. again, my thing with him is just take responsibility for himself. Take ownership for his own play, and if he talks about the coaches in addition to talking about his own shortcomings then I wouldn't have a problem with that.

By saying that Milwaukee had bad defensive coaching, no defensive mentality, that the team was bad defensively... Don't you think that he was admitting he was poor defensively? After all he was on the team and he pretty much said the whole team was bad defensively... So I assume that he included himself as part of the team.

Mo came from Utah, playing for one of the greatest coaches of all time, to Milwaukee where they had three below average coaches in a row... Maybe that was the reason for his and several other players defensive flaws? Redd used to be known as someone who could play D, look at him. Patterson looked completely lost when he came here, when he was playing for Portland he was known as a very good defender.

I'm not going to say Mo Williams was a good or even average defender, he was absolutely awful... Just like our whole team was absolutely awful.

All I know is everyone is going to see just how much of a 'cancer', 'bad teammate' and 'how he gives no effort on defense' when he is the second best player on a team competing for a championship this season.

[Epicurus]

As an alum, I watched Mike Redd throughout his Big Ten career, when was he this defensive phenom, LP? The objective defensive scores of his early years with the Bucks seem the same as his later years, if I recall correctly. Mike Redd would not be in the NBA if dependent upon his defensive prowess in his college or early years.

As I said earlier, a valid criticism of Patterson's year was too much complexity was tried that season. Why? To compensate for the team's obvious (as coaches discovered to their chagrin during the preseason workouts) defensive lack of talent. Patterson is great at face to face defense, but he is/was a very dimmed bulb. Small wonder he looked lost in a complex systeme trying (with bad results) to compensate for really bad defensive matchups.

[jerrod]

I want Mo to take accountability for himself... Don't place the blame on anyone else but himself.

we've been talking about the bucks d as a whole. so you think that by saying that defense wasn't important here he's blaming everyone but himself? he didn't say that he played as hard as he could but it was the coaches fault. he was just talking about the atmosphere here. he's not blaming anyone, just stating the truth that we all already knew.

we all know players need to be motivated and coached to play their best, so if the coaches are absolutely awful why should it all be on a player?

[Newz]

As an alum, I watched Mike Redd throughout his Big Ten career, when was he this defensive phenom, LP?

When did I say Redd was known as a defensive phenom? I said he used to be known as someone who could play D, now he is known as a poor defender.

[Epicurus]

Let me add an analogy from the "pro" football team I follow, the Bengals. Prior to coming to Cincinnati as head coach Marvin Lewis was considered a defensive guru. Under him the Bengals have never been a good or even average defensive team. Did he forget what he once knew? Was his reputation totally dependent upon the defensive players he had pre-Bengal? Was he no longer able to motivate players?

As I have said several times in the past, molding players by a coach is easier in the lower levels of play before players define their games and don't consider themselves formed (based largely on huge rewards for playing their game).

[Epicurus]

As an alum, I watched Mike Redd throughout his Big Ten career, when was he this defensive phenom, LP?

When did I say Redd was known as a defensive phenom? I said he used to be known as someone who could play D, now he is known as a poor defender.

I was using hyperbole, but the point remains. When was Redd a good defender? (Oops, cue the " where did I say 'good defender') Redd has had to take on a Herculian role (or he has chosen to) on offense. He has for the Bucks been both their Elgin Baylor and Reggie Miller type of wing. Redd has also been very rewarded for his game. Indeed he received the rewards before he became an efficient scorer even. Simple point--he recognized that scoring points exicted owners and gms and got them to write very big checks. He put his effort on his offense and that coincided that he had teammates who couldn't perform the tasks he could. But again, he would have not made the Bucks or anyother team with the defense he left college with nor with that of his early career.

[carmelbrownqueen]

By saying that Milwaukee had bad defensive coaching, no defensive mentality, that the team was bad defensively... Don't you think that he was admitting he was poor defensively? After all he was on the team and he pretty much said the whole team was bad defensively... So I assume that he included himself as part of the team.

Mo came from Utah, playing for one of the greatest coaches of all time, to Milwaukee where they had three below average coaches in a row... Maybe that was the reason for his and several other players defensive flaws? Redd used to be known as someone who could play D, look at him. Patterson looked completely lost when he came here, when he was playing for Portland he was known as a very good defender.

I'm not going to say Mo Williams was a good or even average defender, he was absolutely awful... Just like our whole team was absolutely awful.

All I know is everyone is going to see just how much of a 'cancer', 'bad teammate' and 'how he gives no effort on defense' when he is the second best player on a team competing for a championship this season.

Taking responsibility would have been to say in that article:

"I haven't been a very good defender. I will admit I didn't try hard to be a good defender in Milwaukee, but I do understand that playing defense is what I need to do to help this team win a championship. I know I am capable of it, and while in Milwaukee, that wasn't my focus." Then on the end of that he could have added all the rest of the stuff about it not really being a focus in Milwaukee while he was here... doing that would have demonstrated ownership and wouldn't have left us attempting to intrepret whether he believes he was part of the problem. Since he didn't do any of that, I am not assuming that he was adding himself into the equation as a bad defender because that isn't what he said.

You're right, Mo came from Utah where he got minutes from a very tough coach. A guy who demands defense, therefore, he can't say he was never taught defensive priniciples because we all know Jerry Sloan never falters when it comes to that. What we know is that he didn't transfer any of those lessons here. Perhaps that's because he wasn't forced to or perhaps that's because he didn't value them, we don't know for sure. What we know is that he never played on this team like a guy who was taught that defense was important. What we know is that Mo Williams has been an abyssmal defender here in Milwaukee before and after his big contract. What we have seen has been a lack of effort on the defensive end. And he continued to feed us the same lip service that the coaches and GM fed us, the same lip service he is feeding the media right now. We never ever saw an improvement in his defensive effort no matter what he said. He was always the same guy every season (on the defensive end) regardless, even though he said he would be different.

And you're also right that Redd was lauded as a better defender than what have seen; especially when compared to poor defenders like Glenn Robinson, Ray Allen, and Tim Thomas. And with Ruben Patterson, his defense was ALWAYS somewhat overrated. Ruben isn't a smart basketball player and he couldn't comprehend anything coaches were trying to instill offensively or defensively (no matter what team he was on). Therefore he survived on his ability to hustle and make things happen... If he was able to pick up on this he would be on an NBA team now, but he isn't. If he had at least an average bball IQ then he would be playing right now, but he isn't and he doesn't.

I truly believe Cleveland is a good fit for Mo. Having a dominant player on the team will help him, it's when Mo is allowed to believe he's the best player on the team that a team is in trouble. Hopefully Mo Williams knows he is no where near as good as his teammate and that should help keep him in check. I would not be surprised if they win a championship with him contributing to that team.. he just isn't a good fit for a team that doesn't have that type of talent next to him.

[paul]

By saying that Milwaukee had bad defensive coaching, no defensive mentality, that the team was bad defensively... Don't you think that he was admitting he was poor defensively? After all he was on the team and he pretty much said the whole team was bad defensively... So I assume that he included himself as part of the team.

Mo came from Utah, playing for one of the greatest coaches of all time, to Milwaukee where they had three below average coaches in a row... Maybe that was the reason for his and several other players defensive flaws? Redd used to be known as someone who could play D, look at him. Patterson looked completely lost when he came here, when he was playing for Portland he was known as a very good defender.

I'm not going to say Mo Williams was a good or even average defender, he was absolutely awful... Just like our whole team was absolutely awful.

All I know is everyone is going to see just how much of a 'cancer', 'bad teammate' and 'how he gives no effort on defense' when he is the second best player on a team competing for a championship this season.

Come on Luke, you managed to somehow twist what Mo said into him saying he's a bad defender? Seriously sticking up for the guy is one thing, but you can't just completely flip what he said and expect it to be ok. I haven't read the article for two days and I'm not going to again but I'm pretty sure never at any point in this article did Mo say anything was close to his fault or even that he was part of the problem, he said something like defense wasn't a priority in Mil and players didn't know the systems but in Cle it's different and it's nice to now be playing with guys who "know how to play the right way" (that line still cracks me up btw, can't believe that wasn't the major controversy to come out of this article).

As to your last two points - the first one is a sentence that says nothing, 'he was an awful defender but our whole team was awful? Firstly that's even more of a put down on him, as the guy just beat out CV in the race to be the very worst defender on the worst defensive team in the league (I don't care if someone tells me the stats say Ivey was worse, I entirely disagree). Secondly there were some good defenders on the team in Bogut and Bell, Ruffin was OK as was Mason. Those guys definitely don't deserve to be thrown into the same lot as Mo defensively.

Your last point brings up three legitimate (possibly, at least 2) criticisms of Mo and then attempts to dismiss them using a totally unrelated point, that he'll be the 'second best player on a contender'. Well one things for sure, he'll be lucky to be in the top 12 best defenders on that team, he is an excellent and extremely talented offensive player but that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. And of course none of that would dismiss the 'cancer', 'bad teammate', 'matador defender' criticisms that you brought up.

BTW Bogut would be a legitimite starting allstar by now if he'd had a decent coach in Milwaukee. That of course is completely flawed logic, but I'm just hoping someone defending Mo's comments here will attempt to refute it with a straight face.

[carmelbrownqueen]

I want Mo to take accountability for himself... Don't place the blame on anyone else but himself.

we've been talking about the bucks d as a whole. so you think that by saying that defense wasn't important here he's blaming everyone but himself? he didn't say that he played as hard as he could but it was the coaches fault. he was just talking about the atmosphere here. he's not blaming anyone, just stating the truth that we all already knew.

we all know players need to be motivated and coached to play their best, so if the coaches are absolutely awful why should it all be on a player?

I wrote in another post, how I would have liked to see him answer this question... but again, I just wanted to see him talk about himself and then he could say whatever he wanted about his prior coaching from his perspective.

[Newz]

BTW Bogut would be a legitimite starting allstar by now if he'd had a decent coach in Milwaukee. That of course is completely flawed logic, but I'm just hoping someone defending Mo's comments here will attempt to refute it with a straight face.

I certainly don't think Mo is going to be a big contributor defensively in Cleveland... I just don't think he is very talented on that side of the floor. I do think that the Cavs superior defenders will help him make up for his defensive short comings though. From what I read Mo isn't blaming the organization and coaching for his shortcomings as he is blaming them for the ENTIRE TEAMS. He believes that his new team has been coached and taught to play the game of basketball much better than they were in Milwaukee... Which is probably the truth.

Just like I don't think Mo is going to turn into Gary Payton now that he plays for the Cavs, I don't think Bogut is going to turn into Dwight Howard under Skiles... But I do believe that both of them will improve in areas that they were previously lacking in.

[paul]

Fair enough Luke, we're on slightly different sides of the argument but that's a good clarification.

[unklchuk]

I thought this thread was going to get loud but boring. Instead it got pretty interesting. Good efforts on both sides.

[smauss]

I thought this thread was going to get loud but boring. Instead it got pretty interesting. Good efforts on both sides.

That's one in a row!

Will the streak continue with players on the actual bucks roster?