Bucks-Bulls Postgame Thread 10/28/2008

[carmelbrownqueen]

He's not being critical of Redd, he's pointing out that you said "Without Redd we would have lost this game by DOUBLE DIGITS," but with Redd, the Bucks lost by 13...a double digit number...

Savvy?

Okay more accurately, without Redd scoring and responding well to being benched shortly (started to hustle more defensively) we would have lost by 30 nobody else brought anything of value to the court. Is that better?

[WEFFPIM]

He's not being critical of Redd, he's pointing out that you said "Without Redd we would have lost this game by DOUBLE DIGITS," but with Redd, the Bucks lost by 13...a double digit number...

Savvy?

Okay more accurately, without Redd scoring and responding well to being benched shortly (started to hustle more defensively) we would have lost by 30 nobody else brought anything of value to the court. Is that better?

I agree, but come on, you know it's funny. You had a samsquatch/I'm stun/Happy Kwanza, Ryan Braun moment, maybe your first of the board.

It's a time to celebrate!

[trwi7]

I agree, but come on, you know it's funny. You had a samsquatch/I'm stun/Happy Kwanza, Ryan Braun moment, maybe your first of the board.

I didn't get a party for my samsquatch moment yesterday.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=846915

[carmelbrownqueen]

He's not being critical of Redd, he's pointing out that you said "Without Redd we would have lost this game by DOUBLE DIGITS," but with Redd, the Bucks lost by 13...a double digit number...

Savvy?

Okay more accurately, without Redd scoring and responding well to being benched shortly (started to hustle more defensively) we would have lost by 30 nobody else brought anything of value to the court. Is that better?

I agree, but come on, you know it's funny. You had a samsquatch/I'm stun/Happy Kwanza, Ryan Braun moment, maybe your first of the board.

It's a time to celebrate!

I need a nap.

[James1980]

This team is almost unwatchable for me when Redd isn't in the game. To many ticky tacky called on Bogut. CV/DJones/1st need to be packaged to bring in SOMETHING at the 4.

CV, Jones, Bell. and a first for Sheed?

Bogut should have dominated this game, he did get some awful calls, but even when he was in there he looked out of rhythm. Fresh Prince should not be taking those shots. The Bulls have 2 pgs that are better than ours. It would have been nice to get Hnrich instead of Ridnour.

[WEFFPIM]

I agree, but come on, you know it's funny. You had a samsquatch/I'm stun/Happy Kwanza, Ryan Braun moment, maybe your first of the board.

I didn't get a party for my samsquatch moment yesterday.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=846915

Oh, you had one, I must have sent the invite to the wrong destination.



It was wild, missed a good time...unfortunate...truly unfortunate

[Badgerlander]

I thought that nobody looked very impressive last night. Redd scored, but he played his usual game, really (not a compliment). Jefferson and Bogut looked slow, Ridnour looked washed up. CV wasn't even on the court enough to really say anything about, which I guess says enough in itself.

The thing I don't get is the praise for Malik Allen. He hit a few J's, but that is all he brings to the table. The Bulls acted like he wasn't even on the court the way they just went around him to the rim and for rebounds. He is a horrible player and I hope Skiles doesn't increase his minutes because he got 10 points. It is very difficult to see what any coach could like in Allen. He's not even a good shooter for a big man overall, he's never shot 50% or better and his career shooting percentage is less than 45%. So even the one skill he brings is thoroughly below average. This guy is terrible, I can't stress that enough.

I agree 100%

[Badgerlander]

It goes both ways, especially since Bogut wasn't on the court long enough to even get in a rhythm last night. Not to mention Bogut proved once again he struggles feeling the double team and reacting quick enough to find the open man. I believe he had 2 of his turnovers on bad passes out of the post. At least be objective if you're going to rip Redd.

Ok, so because I didn't rip Bogut I'm not objective? I didn't say anything about Bogut's game good or bad. I posted earlier what I thought of the whole team if you go back and read it. The subject was Redd, I just added my 2c. Don't turn everyone's opinion into a personal attack.

[Licensed to Il]

Ridnour can't finish, makes careless turnovers, and didn't get our guys any easy baskets. Add in the fact that he gets overpowered by most opposing point guards on the defensive end, and I am a little less than excited about watching Bucks games for the next two years. The only good thing I can say about the kid is that he is a little easier to watch than Tyrone Lue, who for some reason thinks he is an elite shooter/scorer.

CV was invisible, Bogut failed to take advantage of an easy matchup (though he did get hit with one or two questionable calls), RJ showed flashes but needs to make the impact we brought him here for, and Luc M'+M needs to learn the defensive three second rules. Gadz and Allen did a decent job blocking out, but when Ty Thomas comes flying in and snatches rebounds out of your hands you need to adjust and get to the ball... instead of standing there like unathletic dopes and giving up thosecritical boards. We are not going to win more than 30 games with this roster. You need a tough point guard to play Skile's system and Ridnour is SOFT.

On the bright side, there were flashes of better defense... guys closed out better and there were fewer lanes to the hoop. We need to get smarter on that end though (make Ben Gordon drive instead of daring him to take long threes, make Ty Thomas shoot instead of giving him the lane, etc). But I hate to compliment a defense that gave up over 100 points to Chicago.

Also... Derek Rose is going to be a franchise cornerstone that saves Paxson's job. Deng, Thomas, and Gordon already look 2times better than they did last year because of how dynamic of a prospect Rose is.

[Joana]

I don't have much more to say than what I wrote in the game thread: we need to stop the opponent drives earlier, using the feet on the perimeter, not the hands and deep "sinking" help defense, often uncontrolled, on the paint.

The half-court offense looked decent to me, with or without Bogut on the floor. I don't expect so many post ups, that was never Skiles kind of offense. Bogut looked slow and uncomfortable, I wouldn't be surprised if he was playing with some sore on his ankle. He was playing the trailer, and that being the case, it's hard to gain position. The team failed to identify some mismatchs here and there, but that's normal with so many new guys. I thought we should have run more high screen/rolls, seemed like Rose was struggling to fight picks. I liked the double screens shots. Jefferson missed more easy bunnies than he should, but Redd made up for it. Allen plays because he sets good picks and can hit the wide open middle-range shot and those are important things on Skiles offense. I agree he was incredibly slow-footed on defense though.

Ultimately, the transitions killed us. We didn't defend (although they executed very well, even Thomas looked liked a point-guard running the floor), and the transition offense was horrible, we produced way more turnovers than points (not even sure if we scored), thanks to a reckless care of the ball and terrible first passes (Ridnour was horrific in this aspect).

The refs...meh. That over-the-back called on Bogut looked dubious, in my eyes it should have been called a foul on Hinrinch, but we didn't play well enough to win.

[BuckFan25226]

It goes both ways, especially since Bogut wasn't on the court long enough to even get in a rhythm last night. Not to mention Bogut proved once again he struggles feeling the double team and reacting quick enough to find the open man. I believe he had 2 of his turnovers on bad passes out of the post. At least be objective if you're going to rip Redd.

Ok, so because I didn't rip Bogut I'm not objective? I didn't say anything about Bogut's game good or bad. I posted earlier what I thought of the whole team if you go back and read it. The subject was Redd, I just added my 2c. Don't turn everyone's opinion into a personal attack.

How did I personally attack you? You give your 2cents, I give mine. Don't assume since I disagree with you, it's a personal attack.

I think everyone would love to see a 2 man game between Bogut and Redd. But if you're going to complain about it, don't use last nights game. Bogut wasn't on the floor long enough for it to work anyway. Not to mention, as I said before, Bogut still struggles passing out of the post. And if Skiles has not worked on a 2 man game with Bogut and Redd, I'm pretty sure you won't see many 2 man situations between the 2. My point is, in last nights game in particular, Redd doesn't deserve to be ripped nearly as much as the rest of the team.

[Badgerlander]

How did I personally attack you? You give your 2cents, I give mine. Don't assume since I disagree with you, it's a personal attack.

I think everyone would love to see a 2 man game between Bogut and Redd. But if you're going to complain about it, don't use last nights game. Bogut wasn't on the floor long enough for it to work anyway. Not to mention, as I said before, Bogut still struggles passing out of the post. And if Skiles has not worked on a 2 man game with Bogut and Redd, I'm pretty sure you won't see many 2 man situations between the 2. My point is, in last nights game in particular, Redd doesn't deserve to be ripped nearly as much as the rest of the team.

Well when you are trying to tell me what I can and can't do how am I supposed to take it? It's a free country, I'm entitled to my opinion. I wasn't "complaining" about the lack of a two man game, I'm just wondering why it doesn't happen. Bogut is a better than average passer, and Redd just doesn't pass.
Anyway, I think the whole team should be ripped starting with the coach, and then your best player even though he scored 30 points, on down the line. Nobody had a "good" game.
This is why I never post on this board, it always eventually turns into an overblown debate over exactly how great or how bad a certain player is, and it's really just an opinion. Sorry next time I will rip all the other players twice as much as I rip Redd, whatever.

[trwi7]

Bucks Diary has the win scores from last nights game. Only Redd had an above average game, Gadzuric was average, everybody else was below average. Villanueva and Bell being the worst.

http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dd4nrbjq_299d92dxtgd

[paulpressey25]

Bucks Diary has the win scores from last nights game.

Maybe you can share with the group Ty's comments about Redd in that same entry....

[trwi7]

Bucks Diary has the win scores from last nights game.

Maybe you can share with the group Ty's comments about Redd in that same entry....

As you wish, because I'll get banned if I don't.

Was Michael Redd dead during the 1980s? I ask that because he can obviously score, but the thing that seperated the flashy players (Dominique Wilkins, Bernard King, etc) from the decade's champions (Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, etc) was all around production. Redd scored tonight, but showed no inclination to do anything else. Its frustrating because he has the potential to be so much more than he is -- he proved it during his first two seasons -- but he doesn't seem to think secondary statistics have any value. Which makes me wonder whether he had a television growing up.

[europa]

So Redd's being criticized because he's not a Hall of Fame type of talent.

Got it.

At least Ty is being objective with his analysis.

I actually did see Redd trying to do other things. He busted his ass defensively, for example. I'd like to see his rebounds and assists be higher so that's fair. But overall, I thought he played very well and I'll say again that if he's being hammered after last night's game it seems to me he isn't being viewed fairly. The Bucks needed more production like the kind they got from Redd last night.

[ReasonablySober]

6. Was Michael Redd dead during the 1980s? I ask that because he can obviously score, but the thing that seperated the flashy players (Dominique Wilkins, Bernard King, etc) from the decade's champions (Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, etc) was all around production. Redd scored tonight, but showed no inclination to do anything else. Its frustrating because he has the potential to be so much more than he is -- he proved it during his first two seasons -- but he doesn't seem to think secondary statistics have any value. Which makes me wonder whether he had a television growing up.

One play last night gave you all you needed to know about Redd.

Start of the fourth quarter, Bucks down 77-85. Bogut back in the game with four fouls. Both Bogut and Redd go for the block on Nocioni and a whistle blows. Could have gone to either Bogut or Redd from the look of the replay. Foul goes to Redd and Mike has a **** fit. Instead of holding up his hand immediately to keep Bogut from getting his 5th, Redd actually argues that he wasn't the guy committing the foul.

Nice, Mike. That was a real good moment for ya.

[emunney]

I wish Redd was as good as "Nique.

[smooth 'lil balla]

6. Was Michael Redd dead during the 1980s? I ask that because he can obviously score, but the thing that seperated the flashy players (Dominique Wilkins, Bernard King, etc) from the decade's champions (Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, etc) was all around production. Redd scored tonight, but showed no inclination to do anything else. Its frustrating because he has the potential to be so much more than he is -- he proved it during his first two seasons -- but he doesn't seem to think secondary statistics have any value. Which makes me wonder whether he had a television growing up.

One play last night gave you all you needed to know about Redd.

Start of the fourth quarter, Bucks down 77-85. Bogut back in the game with four fouls. Both Bogut and Redd go for the block on Nocioni and a whistle blows. Could have gone to either Bogut or Redd from the look of the replay. Foul goes to Redd and Mike has a **** fit. Instead of holding up his hand immediately to keep Bogut from getting his 5th, Redd actually argues that he wasn't the guy committing the foul.

Nice, Mike. That was a real good moment for ya.

This is ridiculous. The Redd bashing is just terrible. He argued because he didn't commit a foul, and neither did Bogut. It's called normal human reaction to argue that when you didn't even touch the guy.

So many people on here just have complete blinders on. Redd was very very good last night. Anyone saying otherwise is not objective. Was he Kobe, Dwayne Wade, or Lebron? No, but he was still the only guy on our team who showed up to play, and he played extremely well.

[paulpressey25]

I'll say again that if he's being hammered after last night's game it seems to me he isn't being viewed fairly. The Bucks needed more production like the kind they got from Redd last night.

We got production from Redd last night. Far better production than anyone else. He wasn't the reason the team lost. No issues stipulating to those facts.

The ongoing debate is what we got last night worth $17 million a season and is it possible that the team would have done better overall if we had Luc Richard playing SG given his ability to change things defensively at that position. What if Ben Gordon and at times Hinrich were locked down in the 3rd and 4th quarter by LRMAM? Could that benefit have helped us more than Redd's scoring did last night?

As to the $17mm, we can get comparable offensive production from a guy like Maggette at $9-10mm a year.

I'm not sure on the Luc Richard hypothesis, but I'll still ride that horse until I actually see it dead. i.e. Skiles trying that combination.