OT: India Killing Spree

[LUKE23]

Not exactly a great start to the Thanksgiving holiday. Don't know how many have been following this, but it is right out of a movie. Prayers to everyone who lost friends/family.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/ ... TE=DEFAULT

[paul]

Yeah it's just been all over the news over here. An Australian actress was outside having a cigarette when they stormed the Taj Mahal hotel where she was staying and started killing people, she hid in a cleaners closet in the bathroom for an hour before security came and rushed them out, she said there were dead bodies in the hall and on the stairs - crazy crazy sh*t. Apparently they were targeting westerners, shouting out 'who's got a british or american passport' and stuff like that.
She said she's trying to quit smoking, lucky she hasn't yet or she might have been in there.

[jerrod]

in these times of dwindling natural resources it's nice to know that we'll never run out of people who want to kill other people

[bigkurty]

Very Very sad. It is crazy to think that people can think like this and carry out these attacks with no respect for the value of human life. I don't want this to go political but if there is anything to be thankful for with regards to the Bush regime it is that some of his policies have kept us safe stateside so far from terrorist like attacks since 9/11 and I appreciate that at least. Thanks for the post Luke23 cause I was not aware of this situation and it is crazy. I can't believe they attacked the Taj Mahal too. I wonder how India ends up reacting to the islamic terrorists considering they have a 13.4% muslim concentration in their country. These islamic radicals are not to be taken lightly and no amount of reasoning will get through to them IMO so I hope other countries like India step up to help the U.S. "smoke out" the radical factions because the beliefs and actions of the very few should not be allowed to affect the world like these people have. Plus we cannot afford to do all the policing around the world like we have done so other countries need to step up and help contribute. I imagine the world markets will take another big hit as well which is not good at all right now.

[icat2000]

Step up and help out the US how? More troops no thanks. Another Australian just lost their life fighting in Afghanistan. I wish our government would pull our troops out.

Anyway can the US really afford to be spending up large on the miltary considering the amout of debt your country is in. Afterall, someone/country in the world is picking up the US tab for spending. What happens one day when they want their money back.

Regarding the Mumbai situaton. There has been Australian man killed. Two injured and two trapped in a hotel.

Currently there is a lot of unrest in the world. The situation in the Congo, Bangkok, Somali ransoming that tanker now in India.

[Mags FTW]

Terrible.

My favorite professor was an instructor who taught my History of the Vietnam War class. He used to work for/be a good friend of JFK and I would often stay after class and pick his brain. After the final exam we talked for about an hour and his prediction was that there would eventually be a holy war of Muslims (extremists, moderates, secular, etc.) vs. the world. I didn't agree at the time, but with each attack it seems more likely.

[bigkurty]

Step up and help out the US how? More troops no thanks. Another Australian just lost their life fighting in Afghanistan.

Anyway can the US really afford to be spending up large on the miltary considering the amout of debt your country is in. Afterall, someone/country in the world is picking up the US tab for spending. What happenes one day when they want their money back

Regarding the Mumbai situaton. There has been Australian man killed. Two injured and two trapped in a hotel.

Would you change your opinion if say the Sydney Opera House was attacked by muslim radical militants while 2000 people were inside?

[icat2000]

Step up and help out the US how? More troops no thanks. Another Australian just lost their life fighting in Afghanistan.

Anyway can the US really afford to be spending up large on the miltary considering the amout of debt your country is in. Afterall, someone/country in the world is picking up the US tab for spending. What happenes one day when they want their money back

Regarding the Mumbai situaton. There has been Australian man killed. Two injured and two trapped in a hotel.

Would you change your opinion if say the Sydney Opera House was attacked by muslim radical militants while 2000 people were inside?

12 October 2002 - Bali. Australians know exactly what it feels like to lose its nationals in a terrorist attack. Also Australians were killed in 2001 attacks. And no it would not change my mind about wanting to withdraw our trooops out of Afghanistan.

[bigkurty]

Step up and help out the US how? More troops no thanks. Another Australian just lost their life fighting in Afghanistan.

Anyway can the US really afford to be spending up large on the miltary considering the amout of debt your country is in. Afterall, someone/country in the world is picking up the US tab for spending. What happenes one day when they want their money back

Regarding the Mumbai situaton. There has been Australian man killed. Two injured and two trapped in a hotel.

Would you change your opinion if say the Sydney Opera House was attacked by muslim radical militants while 2000 people were inside?

12 October 2002 - Bali. Australians know exactly what it feels like to lose its nationals in a terrorist attack. Also Australians where killed in 2001 as well. And no it would not change my mind about wanting to withdraw our trooops out of Afghanistan.

Please forgive me if I sound ignorant and do not really know a lot about this event, but how exactly is Bali, Indonesia anywhere close to getting attacked on your homeland and losing thousands of citizens? I realize 88 vacationing Australians were killed there which I agree is horrible and sad as well but I just think getting attacked on your home soil affects a countries mentality towards the attackers more so than say vacationers in another country getting attacked. I do respect your opinion though of wanting to withdraw your troops so don't get me wrong, this civil unrest is sad. I would just like to know how you propose to actually solve the problem of stopping these types of attacks around the world. Diplomacy does not work with these kind of radical people as has been evident in the past so how do we as a "world community" stop them from attacking the innocent? Now before you respond, please let me preface this by saying I realize I do not know all that much about Australia besides the fact that we are friendly nations and all seem like good people in general so I don't want to come off like I am attacking your beliefs in anyway. And to put our situation in perspective, almost 3000 (2974 according to wikkipedia) people were killed in the 9/11 attacks.

[paul]

Would you change your opinion if say the Sydney Opera House was attacked by muslim radical militants while 2000 people were inside?

12 October 2002 - Bali. Australians know exactly what it feels like to lose its nationals in a terrorist attack. Also Australians where killed in 2001 as well. And no it would not change my mind about wanting to withdraw our trooops out of Afghanistan.

Please forgive me if I sound ignorant and do not really know a lot about this event, but how exactly is Bali, Indonesia anywhere close to getting attacked on your homeland and losing thousands of citizens? I realize 88 vacationing Australians were killed there which I agree is horrible and sad as well but I just think getting attacked on your home soil affects a countries mentality towards the attackers more so than say vacationers in another country getting attacked. I do respect your opinion though of wanting to withdraw your troops so don't get me wrong, this civil unrest is sad. I would just like to know how you propose to actually solve the problem of stopping these types of attacks around the world. Diplomacy does not work with these kind of radical people as has been evident in the past so how do we as a "world community" stop them from attacking the innocent? Now before you respond, please let me preface this by saying I realize I do not know all that much about Australia besides the fact that we are friendly nations and all seem like good people in general so I don't want to come off like I am attacking your beliefs in anyway. And to put our situation in perspective, almost 3000 (2974 according to wikkipedia) people were killed in the 9/11 attacks.

I get what your saying Kurty - it is completely impossible for non-Americans to fathom what it must be like to feel totally vulnerable to attack on your own soil as you guys must have after 9/11. That event was felt deeply around the world (I for one sat up all night and just could not look away from the tv, took a sick day the next day to do the same and was completely freaked out) but obviously the magnitude of the event wasn't the same for us.
There is however a growing feeling of resentment in Australia that we are putting our young soldiers in harms way and have been for 7 years for something that really isn't our fight, there is also a feeling that we are only doing this because our previous Prime Minister was desperate to please the US and appear to perhaps be more important than we really are. I disagree somewhat and personally feel that ridding the world of Al Qaeda in particular, although now highly unlikely, is a worthy goal.
The Iraq situation is what has really p*ssed people off over here though, we followed blindly into a situation we should never have been in, likely many Americans feel the same way but try to imagine how you'd feel if you'd followed us there on our blatantly incorrect intel?

As far as Bali goes - prior to the bombings it was without doubt Australia's favorite holiday spot and was known very much as an Aussie hub, so a bombing there (aimed at killing Australian's) was very much like a bombing on our own soil. 88 Australian's dying certainly pales numbers wise compared to the WTC, but given we have a population of 20 million compared to yours of over 300 million you'll understand why that number probably seems bigger to us than it does to you.

Anyway sorry to get all political, just thought I'd try to explain it to some degree from this Aussie's POV.

[humanrefutation]

The Muslim population in India has been marginalized since Gandhi's death. These attacks just serve to reinforce that marginalization.

"It is very tempting to point the finger at Muslim militants, and indeed they have been the main culprits in the pattern of attacks", but cautioned that "one has to be careful before pointing the finger," Abedin said.

"We have seen an increase in recent years in indigenous Indian Muslim organisations beginning to take a violent stance towards the Indian state and sections of the Indian society, particularly the commercial elite of places like Mumbai, in order to highlight, they would say, the sheer inequality of life in India.

"There is a middle class of around 100 million who live very well but 800 million-plus people live in miserable conditions," he said.

There is a long history of violence between the Hindu majority and the Muslim minority in India, with massive death tolls on both sides. It's important to distinguish the context of this civil unrest from Iraq and Afghanistan, or other US-related imperial struggles, especially when it seems that there is no clear relation. It's also important that people wonder why individuals would resort to such brash, pathetically violent and condemnable actions. That's what is often missed by many of us.

As a Muslim, I'm saddened by these attacks, as I'm saddened by the loss of life anywhere it takes place, especially when innocent civilians are involved. But, I also worry that the actions of an incredibly small sect of radicals will outweigh the positive contributions of the rest of the 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world.

[bigkurty]

Thanks Paul for the explanation and I appreciate your POV. I just get so pissed off by these damn radicals that I probably get too emotionally involved in my opinions and how to solve the problem. I just can't fathom how people can think with the mentality that these radicals seem to have. It is just so sad to know that right now innocent people are being held hostage for no reason other than being from a certain country. These are not people who are even fighting the radicals, they are also there just on holiday it sounds like and to know that this could happen to anyone of us for no apparent reason is just extremely disheartening. I just pray that the innocent people still being held hostage can some how by the grace of god, be rescued safely and that the families and friends of those killed can somehow get retribution from this all and gain some piece of mind. Man this crap just pisses me off to no end.

[humanrefutation]

You know, there's 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. That's 25 percent of the population of the world. It's the fastest-growing religion in the world. We cannot, if [Obama] does not appease and actually recruit the help of this Muslim world, we're going to have a problem on our hands.

And we cannot go after the wrong people, as we did after 9/11, because then the whole collateral damage that occurs actually aggravates the situation.

In India, this is particularly inflammatory, because there's a rise of Hindu fundamentalism. We saw what that did in Gujarat, where, you know, Muslims were scorched and they were killed, and there was almost a genocide of the Muslims.

India has 150 million Muslims. That's more Muslims in India than in Pakistan. So this is an opportunity right now for India and Pakistan to recognize this is their common problem. It's not a Muslim problem right now; it's a global problem.

[paul]

The Muslim population in India has been marginalized since Gandhi's death. These attacks just serve to reinforce that marginalization.

"It is very tempting to point the finger at Muslim militants, and indeed they have been the main culprits in the pattern of attacks", but cautioned that "one has to be careful before pointing the finger," Abedin said.

"We have seen an increase in recent years in indigenous Indian Muslim organisations beginning to take a violent stance towards the Indian state and sections of the Indian society, particularly the commercial elite of places like Mumbai, in order to highlight, they would say, the sheer inequality of life in India.

"There is a middle class of around 100 million who live very well but 800 million-plus people live in miserable conditions," he said.

There is a long history of violence between the Hindu majority and the Muslim minority in India, with massive death tolls on both sides. It's important to distinguish the context of this civil unrest from Iraq and Afghanistan, or other US-related imperial struggles, especially when it seems that there is no clear relation. It's also important that people wonder why individuals would resort to such brash, pathetically violent and condemnable actions. That's what is often missed by many of us.

As a Muslim, I'm saddened by these attacks, as I'm saddened by the loss of life anywhere it takes place, especially when innocent civilians are involved. But, I also worry that the actions of an incredibly small sect of radicals will outweigh the positive contributions of the rest of the 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world.

Thought provoking stuff human, good post. I hope now we are passed the point where people simply blame actions like these (not necessarily these specifically I should add, as responsibility for these acts appear to be a little unknown still) on Muslims in general rather than on the very small radical minority responsible, I think we are but as we all know there is some level of ignorance everywhere we go.

Anyway, safe to say this was a cowardly act that has resulted in a terrible waste of human life. Unfortunately it's becoming all too familiar.

[humanrefutation]

Thought provoking stuff human, good post. I hope now we are passed the point where people simply blame actions like these (not necessarily these specifically I should add, as responsibility for these acts appear to be a little unknown still) on Muslims in general rather than on the very small radical minority responsible, I think we are but as we all know there is some level of ignorance everywhere we go.

Believe me, every day when I wake up I hope to look out on a world that doesn't blame the attacks of extremists on Muslims, but every night I go to sleep disappointed.

The biggest problem is that no one ever wonders WHY these attacks take place. I'm not justifying any losses of innocent life...but if individuals don't understand the context which breeds radicalism - i.e. economic and social discrimination, imperialism, marginalization, abuse, and a lack of faith in the global community to step it - the radicalism will continue, unchecked, undeterred, and stronger by the day.

[th87]

Such a tragedy.

As to why things like this happen, hate is easy to breed. All that really needs to be done is to point out poverty and injustice and set up an enemy as the reason for said poverty and injustice. Throw in a religion-told-you-to "mandate", and you supercharge the hatred.

In a world of scarcity: injustice, poverty, and marginalization will likely always exist. The key to coping with these things is EDUCATION. Education helps the masses solve their problems through innovative and effective ways. It promotes societal growth, and encourages peaceable solutions through logic and reason, rather than employing these savage and base methods.

Unfortunately, the radicals do not want any education to take place. The lack of education enables people to be controlled easily and bent to the will of any corrupt cleric out there. That's the biggest problem facing the Muslim world today. If one had the wherewithal to educate oneself on the true nature of humanity, and the true nature of Islam, their minds could not be corrupted by the filthy teachings of any radical group.

[paulpressey25]

This was a well thought out thread. Good responses all around......and now we need to move it to the current events board.