ImageImage

Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years?

Moderators: paulpressey25, MickeyDavis

MajorDad
Banned User
Posts: 6,496
And1: 0
Joined: Jul 28, 2005

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#21 » by MajorDad » Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:54 pm

another flaw is that they should give you a zero if you don't draft a player in a certain year. przzy, traylor and respert all cost the bucks two first round picks. none of them were worth two first round picks. Does he ranking take into account those years we had 2 picks and came home with one player?

it also doesn't take into consideration teams that traded theri first round picks for real players. The lakers used their first round pick to acquire Pau Gasol last year. i'd rather have Gasol than a first round pick any day.

they should have also broken out the first round with the second round. i doubt the bucks would make the top 20 if you just considered their first round picks.

ok, so i'm ripping apart everybody's thesis today.
User avatar
bayrdbandit
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,770
And1: 1
Joined: Dec 13, 2006
Location: Melbourne

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#22 » by bayrdbandit » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:16 pm

have a look at the bigger picture. if you guys break it down how you say, the results still wouldn't come out looking much different. the only way i'd change the study is to separate the stars from the franchise players. kobe, lebron, shaq, duncan need their own category.

their point of the article is that some teams can draft well and some can't. a by-product of the article is the quality of the franchise. which in our case is not very good. we're number 1 overall, yet have not made the nba finals once in that time period. this shows nothing but inadequacy on our behalf.

at least take a moment of silence in respect for the new york knicks. in 20 years, they've yet to draft a star. how incompetent can you get? and for whatever reason, they're still regarded as a marquee franchise? they're a disgrace.

the clippers **** up almost as much, and they're regarded as a joke franchise, yet the knicks are always just seen as rebuilding.

teams like houston, dallas and denver have been competitive for many years, yet still sit at the bottom of this table. goes to show that you can draft poorly but still turn things around.
MajorDad
Banned User
Posts: 6,496
And1: 0
Joined: Jul 28, 2005

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#23 » by MajorDad » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:51 pm

rather than going to show you can draft poorly, but still do well, i think it reveals the biggest flaws of this entire table.
User avatar
paulpressey25
Senior Mod - Bucks
Senior Mod - Bucks
Posts: 60,876
And1: 25,839
Joined: Oct 27, 2002
     

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#24 » by paulpressey25 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:00 pm

Three reasons why Lopez fell.

A) He didn't want to work out for teams outside the top three. This made people fearful of an attitude.

B) White stiff over-reaction coming off Bogut, Darko picks.

C) Mens men type guys like Skiles getting caught up in the Michael Jackson dorm room poster stuff and not seeing through to the talent.

But those who passed on him are paying the price. It was pretty clear to guys like Bernman and I that very few centers came through college who were that gifted offensively and also blocked 12 shots in one game.
In depth discussions here - shorter stuff on Twitter

https://twitter.com/paulpressey25
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 98,003
And1: 34,741
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#25 » by ReasonablySober » Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:02 pm

You forgot an obvious reason. Team like the Bucks only working out specific positions. The Bucks wanted a SF at #8 and they got one. Sort of.
MilBucksBackOnTop06
Banned User
Posts: 12,827
And1: 14
Joined: Nov 10, 2005

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#26 » by MilBucksBackOnTop06 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:17 pm

Dont believe and get suckered into every thing you read. The Bucks have been bad in the last 20 years in drafts. This article is a bunch of horsecrap.

They have not had one decent draft in 20 years that yield them anything. I think writers read our blogs here on RealGm and go back and devise contradictory pieces to right to oppose what we all say. And most of them dont even know our darn team from jack crap and comment on it to get you to read and showcase what they say. Fans make more sense then most articles...

The Bucks have been one of the worse teams in the last 20 years drafting. This article is written by a clueless guy. The second rounders they did hit on, they traded and did not take time to develop!
What good does it do to draft them and then trade them and still lose/

And the players there kept gave them no winning seasons. No playoff appearances of first round advancements once they got to the playoffs, and no 50 win seasons. 20 years ago encompasses when Don Nelson left and Kohl took over.

So a baffoon would say they drafted well. NO THEY DID NOT! Don't always believe what you read. These reporters dont know any more then what some of us know. Dont read their stuff and come back in here and insult us! We know our team better then they do!

You use common sense when looking at this. Look at wins not just the players! You got people who can twist things and numbers to make it mean anything they want....

HOW MANY RINGS DO THE BUCKS HAVE in the last 20 years with these drafts?? None! That is really that matters. How many numbers will be retired by the players we drafted? Big Dog? Not if we dont get Marques Johnson's up there buddy...Redd's?...Please. :roll:

If you have a the #1 overall pick more then twice in 20 years and that guy is not a perennial all star of a Hall of Fame player YOU ARE NOT EVEN IN THE TOP TEN in the best drafting teams!

THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE! One draft made the Spurs and Bulls might sit atop my list. It is not the quantity of the draft selections is the quality...Tim Duncan and Michael Jordan qualify the Spurs and Bulls to be near the top if we said the last 25 years I don't care how many blunders the Bulls made after that.

It was before 20 years but the Bulls drafted Jordan, Pippen, Grant. But then hit on some in the last 20 worth something in Brand, Jay Williams, Rose, Hinrich...no one has drafted better then the Bulls or made as many mitakes as the Bulls with high picks in the last 20 years.

The mere fact the Bucks made a prearranged deal and passed over or gave up Nowitzki disqualifies them from ANY CONSIDERATION much less in taking Big Dog over Grant Hill and Bogut over Marvin and CPaul which I thought was risky at the time!


Hall of fame blunders with picks. Two Hall of famers right there. Perhaps Grant Hill comes here and does not get hurt...Then to take a man with cancer in Shawn Respert and a man with a brusied spine in TJ Ford and a chinese guy who said dont take me in Yi....you have to be wacky to place the Bucks at the top of this list!

ALL MISTAKES...

Don't make me name the names...it is not how many you hit on in the second round that makes your drafting good, it is how many pan, stay on your roster more then 5 years and how many of them that you draft go to another team and win consistently or win a ring.

The Bucks have probaly been the worse drafting team with the amount of high picks they have had.
This article is off base when looked at closly and look at our teams lack of success.
User avatar
bayrdbandit
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,770
And1: 1
Joined: Dec 13, 2006
Location: Melbourne

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#27 » by bayrdbandit » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:36 am

MilBucksBackOnTop06 wrote:Dont believe and get suckered into every thing you read. The Bucks have been bad in the last 20 years in drafts. This article is a bunch of horsecrap.

They have not had one decent draft in 20 years that yield them anything. I think writers read our blogs here on RealGm and go back and devise contradictory pieces to right to oppose what we all say. And most of them dont even know our darn team from jack crap and comment on it to get you to read and showcase what they say. Fans make more sense then most articles...

The Bucks have been one of the worse teams in the last 20 years drafting. This article is written by a clueless guy. The second rounders they did hit on, they traded and did not take time to develop!
What good does it do to draft them and then trade them and still lose/

And the players there kept gave them no winning seasons. No playoff appearances of first round advancements once they got to the playoffs, and no 50 win seasons. 20 years ago encompasses when Don Nelson left and Kohl took over.

So a baffoon would say they drafted well. NO THEY DID NOT! Don't always believe what you read. These reporters dont know any more then what some of us know. Dont read their stuff and come back in here and insult us! We know our team better then they do!

You use common sense when looking at this. Look at wins not just the players! You got people who can twist things and numbers to make it mean anything they want....

HOW MANY RINGS DO THE BUCKS HAVE in the last 20 years with these drafts?? None! That is really that matters. How many numbers will be retired by the players we drafted? Big Dog? Not if we dont get Marques Johnson's up there buddy...Redd's?...Please. :roll:

If you have a the #1 overall pick more then twice in 20 years and that guy is not a perennial all star of a Hall of Fame player YOU ARE NOT EVEN IN THE TOP TEN in the best drafting teams!

THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE! One draft made the Spurs and Bulls might sit atop my list. It is not the quantity of the draft selections is the quality...Tim Duncan and Michael Jordan qualify the Spurs and Bulls to be near the top if we said the last 25 years I don't care how many blunders the Bulls made after that.

It was before 20 years but the Bulls drafted Jordan, Pippen, Grant. But then hit on some in the last 20 worth something in Brand, Jay Williams, Rose, Hinrich...no one has drafted better then the Bulls or made as many mitakes as the Bulls with high picks in the last 20 years.

The mere fact the Bucks made a prearranged deal and passed over or gave up Nowitzki disqualifies them from ANY CONSIDERATION much less in taking Big Dog over Grant Hill and Bogut over Marvin and CPaul which I thought was risky at the time!


Hall of fame blunders with picks. Two Hall of famers right there. Perhaps Grant Hill comes here and does not get hurt...Then to take a man with cancer in Shawn Respert and a man with a brusied spine in TJ Ford and a chinese guy who said dont take me in Yi....you have to be wacky to place the Bucks at the top of this list!

ALL MISTAKES...

Don't make me name the names...it is not how many you hit on in the second round that makes your drafting good, it is how many pan, stay on your roster more then 5 years and how many of them that you draft go to another team and win consistently or win a ring.

The Bucks have probaly been the worse drafting team with the amount of high picks they have had.
This article is off base when looked at closly and look at our teams lack of success.


ironic that your bottom line shows up halfway through your argument.

i think you're missing the point. yes we've had a rubbish 20 years. yes we've had very limited success.

the point of the article is to show which teams have had a good eye for the solid players coming out of college. and i think they've nailed it pretty well. when you look at the talent we've drafted in the past 20 years, we have done extremely well, better than every other team. unfortunately, we haven't developed those players properly, or we haven't surrounded them with the right talent, or we've traded them, or we've let them develop drinking problems.

but as far as the table goes, the whole existence of the fricking table, is to show which teams have spotted the most talent in the past 20 years.
Mike X
Starter
Posts: 2,352
And1: 13
Joined: May 04, 2005
Location: Readin your posts and you dont even know it

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#28 » by Mike X » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:15 am

GrandAdmiralDan wrote:Bucks would have taken Kevin Love, then Eric Gordon, then Alexander. After that they would have taken Augustin and Anthony Randolph, though I'm not sure on the order of those two. We had no interest in Gallinari, Bayless or Brook Lopez, or anyone else taken after #8 besides Augustin and Randolph.


*sniffle* Why couldnt he last one more spot *sniffle*
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#29 » by europa » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:15 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:Three reasons why Lopez fell.


None of those pass the sniff test for me - especially the Bogut one. Bogut isn't a stiff and even if people thought Lopez would be as "bad" as Bogut he still would've gone Top 3-5 in a draft that lacked dynamic big men. I think something was going on from a skill level that had people scared off by him. Again, I know what I thought having watched him a lot last season. I didn't think his game would translate well at all to the next level. He struck me as a soft, average center who lacked top-level talent. So far, that assessment was way off the mark. I wonder if that's what other GMs and scouts thought too and why nobody he fell off so many team's radar faster than Rosie O'Donnell at a Victoria Secret's party.

Obviously plenty of teams, including the Bucks, missed the mark on him big time. But in a league that can often greatly overrate even the most marginal of centers, it's quite curious that Lopez would fall as far as he did unless a large number of people really thought he lacked the big-time talent to succeed.
Nothing will not break me.
User avatar
LUKE23
RealGM
Posts: 72,264
And1: 6,213
Joined: May 26, 2005
Location: Stunville
       

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#30 » by LUKE23 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:19 pm

The "he wouldn't work out" one is a copout, IMO. No team, if they think Lopez is a stud big man, is going to pass on him just because of that, it's not like he threatened holdout, and that isn't something that ever comes into play in the NBA anyway.

The Bogut parallel, no idea where you were going with that one. He has never been and never will be a "stiff".

The attitude concerns I could maybe see, but in the end it just comes down to the fact that GM's didn't think he would be that great.
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#31 » by europa » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:24 pm

LUKE23 wrote:The "he wouldn't work out" one is a copout, IMO. No team, if they think Lopez is a stud big man, is going to pass on him just because of that, it's not like he threatened holdout, and that isn't something that ever comes into play in the NBA anyway.

The Bogut parallel, no idea where you were going with that one. He has never been and never will be a "stiff".

The attitude concerns I could maybe see, but in the end it just comes down to the fact that GM's didn't think he would be that great.


Yup. Your second sentence is right on the mark. There's no way a team (much less several) are going to pass on a potentially talented big man. This is a league which pays Dan Gadzuric $36M over six years because he's a center for cryin out loud. This league often greatly overrates the most marginal of centers, so no way Lopez falls to 10th unless there's a belief among many teams that he simply wasn't going to be very good.

I admit I was wrong about him. But I didn't see this either. I watched him play a lot last season because the hype about him was overwhelming and the Bucks were staring the lottery in the face again. Every time I watched him I kept wondering what the fuss was all about. He just never struck me as being anything special.

I'm sure Hammond regrets passing on him but there are plenty of other teams in the lottery probably kicking themselves too. If the belief around the league was that Lopez was going to be anywhere near as good as he's been so far, no way he falls past the third pick in that draft. But clearly plenty of folks missed the boat on him in a big way.
Nothing will not break me.
User avatar
paulpressey25
Senior Mod - Bucks
Senior Mod - Bucks
Posts: 60,876
And1: 25,839
Joined: Oct 27, 2002
     

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#32 » by paulpressey25 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:27 pm

LUKE23 wrote:The "he wouldn't work out" one is a copout, IMO. No team, if they think Lopez is a stud big man, is going to pass on him just because of that,


Actually I think that contributed to our lack of interest in him and that of a few other teams right above us. Lopez refused to work out for anyone outside the top four and I think later allowed McHale a look. Given our team's sensitivity to wanting to find players who "want to be here" I think there was a small factor in it. Many of our team's offseason moves were predicated on changing the culture and having guys here who "wanted to be here"

Add to the fact the guy wasn't a "Shaq" level prospect and you can see why teams were turned off by that.

The question I'd ask is what makes Lopez a worse prospect coming into the 2008 draft than Bogut coming into the 2005 draft? I really didn't see a huge difference between the two as prospects.
In depth discussions here - shorter stuff on Twitter

https://twitter.com/paulpressey25
User avatar
LUKE23
RealGM
Posts: 72,264
And1: 6,213
Joined: May 26, 2005
Location: Stunville
       

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#33 » by LUKE23 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:30 pm

Actually I think that contributed to our lack of interest in him and that of a few other teams right above us. Lopez refused to work out for anyone outside the top four and I think later allowed McHale a look. Given our team's sensitivity to wanting to find players who "want to be here" I think there was a small factor in it. Many of our team's offseason moves were predicated on changing the culture and having guys here who "wanted to be here"

Add to the fact the guy wasn't a "Shaq" level prospect and you can see why teams were turned off by that.

The question I'd ask is what makes Lopez a worse prospect coming into the 2008 draft than Bogut coming into the 2005 draft? I really didn't see a huge difference between the two as prospects.


I disagree. I just think Hammond incorrectly thought Joe was BPA there. If he thought Lopez was BPA, he would have selected him. Same with Bayless or whoever else.

Regarding your comparison of Lopez/Bogut, nobody was making that claim before the draft, including yourself. People had him on the list of prospects they wanted, but nobody was saying he would be as good as he's been.

The reality is that Lopez is better than pretty much everyone thought, fans and management alike. It happens.
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#34 » by europa » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:34 pm

I think teams were turned off by Lopez because they believed (incorrectly thus far) that he simply wasn't all that great. I think it's that cut and dried. But I still would be interested in seeing comments from the GMs who all passed on him why they did since you can make an argument that only Rose and maybe Mayo is a better player right now than Lopez in that draft class (though I think Love is gaining ground in a big way). The reason why I think this is interesting is because I can't recall the last time a center was passed on by so many teams with no other center taken before him (much less several frontcour players of any kind) and who immediately came in and played well like Lopez has done.
Nothing will not break me.
User avatar
emunney
RealGM
Posts: 60,035
And1: 36,431
Joined: Feb 22, 2005
Location: where takes go to be pampered

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#35 » by emunney » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:39 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:Lopez refused to work out for anyone outside the top four and I think later allowed McHale a look.


The Wolves picked third, didn't they?
Here are more legal notices regarding the Posts
User avatar
LUKE23
RealGM
Posts: 72,264
And1: 6,213
Joined: May 26, 2005
Location: Stunville
       

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#36 » by LUKE23 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:41 pm

Wolves picked third, took Mayo and flipped him for Love/Miller.
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#37 » by europa » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:43 pm

emunney wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:Lopez refused to work out for anyone outside the top four and I think later allowed McHale a look.


The Wolves picked third, didn't they?


That's the one that jumped out at me. Say what you want about McHale's skills as a GM but you'd have to think he knows a thing or two about what it takes to be a talented big man in the NBA. And yet, he didn't want anything to do with Lopez. He did target Love and I think he made a smart call there but if any team should have seen something in Lopez you'd think it would've been the T'Wolves. And after them was the Thunder, who have a glacier-sized hole in the frontcourt and they passed on Lopez too. I can appreciate the frustration among Lopez fans that Hammond passed on him. But the truth is, he never should have fallen to 8th if there wasn't a rather strong belief among a lot of people that he wasn't all that great.
Nothing will not break me.
User avatar
paulpressey25
Senior Mod - Bucks
Senior Mod - Bucks
Posts: 60,876
And1: 25,839
Joined: Oct 27, 2002
     

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#38 » by paulpressey25 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:46 pm

europa wrote:The reason why I think this is interesting is because I can't recall the last time a center was passed on by so many teams with no other center taken before him (much less several frontcour players of any kind) and who immediately came in and played well like Lopez has done.


But Lopez is one of those guys in either the NBA or NFL draft that for whatever the reason "caught the flu" so to speak with GM's right before the draft. For virtually all of last year, the guy was ranked either two or three on the NBAdraft.net board. Then he has two massive NCAA games for his final two appearance. He did absolutely nothing on the court to suddenly cause him to be ranked lower.

Then in the April-June time period GM's and fans all started to pile on the Disneyland stories. Next came the "I'm too good to work out for anything other than the top four" stories. Those things artificially caused him to take a dive. People thought he and his brother were nutcases.

This was almost identical to situations with players like Paul Pierce, Randy Moss, Aaron Rodgers, heck, even Chris Paul who was the consensus #1 pick up to the point he kicked Julius Hodge in the nuts. For whatever reason, something caused the GM's at the top to decide to completely re-evaluate the guy post the end of his college career and get excited about the new flavor of the month at workouts (Joe Alexander for example)

Teams that are waiting down the line for guys like this to fall invariably get outstanding value picks. Even if you felt Lopez was in now way a top-five player, you had to acknowledge his value at #8. This is where GM careers are made or broken. Ted Thompson still has a job because he took the heat from Favre in picking Aaron Rodgers. Bogut was not a special enough talent where you should have factored him into the equation either.
In depth discussions here - shorter stuff on Twitter

https://twitter.com/paulpressey25
User avatar
LUKE23
RealGM
Posts: 72,264
And1: 6,213
Joined: May 26, 2005
Location: Stunville
       

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#39 » by LUKE23 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:51 pm

Bogut isn't special, but Lopez is? Makes no sense.

People are looking way too far into this. People just missed on the guy. It was not agenda-driven, it was perceived talent-driven. It is what it is.

He did not drop because of the non-workouts. Nobody is passing on a big man they perceive as very good for that reason.
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

Re: Bucks Best Drafting Team the Last 20 Years? 

Post#40 » by europa » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:51 pm

It's not like Paul Pierce or even Chris Paul, though, because neither one of them were centers. This is a league that COVETS even the most marginally talented centers. So for a center with talent to fall that far when no other center is taken before him is, in my opinion, quite curious and perhaps unprecedented in recent league history.

I agree that Hammond screwed the pooch. But what strikes me as curious is the fact that so many other GMs missed the boat on Lopez too. I realize that happens in just about every draft but how often does it happen with a center and how often does it happen with a center who was the first center taken at his position? It's not like 2-3 other centers leapfrogged Lopez in the draft. No other center did (Love being a PF). And yet, despite the fact that everyone still agreed Lopez was the best center in his draft class, nobody thought enough of him to take him - even the teams like Minnesota and OKC who needed him the most. That strikes me as quite interesting.

And frankly, after the year Ted Thompson just had, I'm not sure anybody should be singing his praises right now.
Nothing will not break me.

Return to Milwaukee Bucks