Love has been holding us back?!?!

[Note30]

https://medium.com/ten-pens/the-kevin-l ... 8496464659

Don't know what to make of the middle portion. What do you guys think?

[packforfreedom]

no

[Feilong]

Really interesting article. Thanks for posting it.
Amazing stat. "In six years you won’t find ONE perimeter oriented player who either improved as Love’s teammate or diminished upon leaving the team. Not one."

It will be interesting to see both CLE and MIN.
If MIN somehow manages to win next season 37-40 games then yes, Love is just a very good player who cares about his stats more than he cares about winning.
But i doubt we will win 37+ games, i project without any additional significant moves to win 31-33 games.

[Basti]

It is really an informative and interesting read. Thanks for posting it.

While it's certainly alarming to read how apparently every perimeter player Love has played with seems to get better the minute they were traded to or signed with another team I do believe the writer didn't put it into context. While the stats he has listed obviously seem to favor his argument, some of the players were put into much better positions in order to boost their stats: Ellington received more minutes, Brewer had a role much better suited for him, Koufus received more minutes and a steady place in the rotation, Williams probably wasn't yanked for every minor mistake he's made (not sure about this but I guess he wasn't longer in his coach's doghouse). And Wes Johnson was/is so bad/unaggressive missing one less shot per game should increase his stats by a ton I'd say.
It's also not surprising that players such as a Beasley and Chase saw a drop in their stats, too. How come Beasley didn't return to his pre-Wolves stats and was subsequently cut and couldn't get any minutes last season if he was at least average? And in Chase's case he was injured most of the time as a Wolf.

However, there might be truth to his argument and I'd like to review the very same argument in about two years when Love has had the chance to play with decent/good perimeter players.

[Foye]

It's bullsh*t that he was holding us back.

But Love camps way too much at the 3 point line when his main spot should be in the post.

I don't mind when a big occasionally takes wide open threes but not at the rate Kevin Love does it. 5-7 threes a game is way too much for a big.

[phonzadellika]

It's bullsh*t that he was holding us back.

But Love camps way too much at the 3 point line when his main spot should be in the post.

I don't mind when a big occasionally takes wide open threes but not at the rate Kevin Love does it. 5-7 threes a game is way too much for a big.

I agree that he wasn't holding us back. Doesn't pass the eye test.

He doesn't have the ball in has hands enough to be a detriment to perimeter players. I don't think he makes other players better, but then again there are very few players in the league that do.

[Wolves_Nation]

There were stretches where he'd be playing too much by the 3 point line and his shot wasn't falling as often. Those times he needed to adjust and get to the hoop.

[Swish4]

If we had added a legit rim protecting defensive big man a few years ago, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Kahn held us back, not Love.

[Nitroglycerin]

I always thought his two greatest skills (3pt shot and rebounding) are contradicting
He camps outside to stretch the floor but needs to go inside to get the rebound. Amazing how he balanced that

[The J Rocka]

Kahn had about 12 1st round draft picks in his possession total (including all the wheeling & dealing).

Managed to come out with Rubio + LRMAM (Flip move) + Euro stashes + future 1st (MEM) + future 2nds + cash

We had all the assets to put a strong supporting cast around Love and Kahn failed to do so. 6th pick, 4th pick, and 2nd pick wasted in consecutive drafts. That doesn't include many of the mid/late round picks that were moved for peanuts.

[alexlgnd]

While conventional thinking says “You need more shooting to space the floor!” please remember that in science any worthwhile idea seems wrong until it is in fact proven right. Having LeBron allows you to experiment with things that the 29 other teams are unable to imagine. Instead, evolution, selection and adaption have been put on hold.

I believe the above paragraph is a telling argument. The future is about change and growing the style of play to be something new. It happens in the NFL and in the NBA. I hope we cut on the cutting edge, as there is little doubt in my mind the Saunders' don't have the potential to be on the forefront of basketball in the NBA.

[Takingbaconback]

It's bullsh*t that he was holding us back.

But Love camps way too much at the 3 point line when his main spot should be in the post.

I don't mind when a big occasionally takes wide open threes but not at the rate Kevin Love does it. 5-7 threes a game is way too much for a big.

Yeah I agree. We can basically point to anybody and say they are the cause of the hold back because basically everybody has sucked. Milicic, Barea, Ridnour, Gelabale, Derrick Williams, DHam, Rubio, Wes Johnson, its just like pulling names out of a hat.

I disagree with this story's idea of how Cavs should have tried to be the new thing in basketball. I don't see how Wiggins + LeBron duo is anything new, seems like MJ and Pippen copycats to me.

[HitmanCapone]

It's bullsh*t that he was holding us back.

But Love camps way too much at the 3 point line when his main spot should be in the post.

I don't mind when a big occasionally takes wide open threes but not at the rate Kevin Love does it. 5-7 threes a game is way too much for a big.

Yeah I agree. We can basically point to anybody and say they are the cause of the hold back because basically everybody has sucked. Milicic, Barea, Ridnour, Gelabale, Derrick Williams, DHam, Rubio, Wes Johnson, its just like pulling names out of a hat.

I disagree with this story's idea of how Cavs should have tried to be the new thing in basketball. I don't see how Wiggins + LeBron duo is anything new, seems like MJ and Pippen copycats to me.

Not saying I agree or disagree with you but is the bolded part really a bad thing?

[Takingbaconback]

It's bullsh*t that he was holding us back.

But Love camps way too much at the 3 point line when his main spot should be in the post.

I don't mind when a big occasionally takes wide open threes but not at the rate Kevin Love does it. 5-7 threes a game is way too much for a big.

Yeah I agree. We can basically point to anybody and say they are the cause of the hold back because basically everybody has sucked. Milicic, Barea, Ridnour, Gelabale, Derrick Williams, DHam, Rubio, Wes Johnson, its just like pulling names out of a hat.

I disagree with this story's idea of how Cavs should have tried to be the new thing in basketball. I don't see how Wiggins + LeBron duo is anything new, seems like MJ and Pippen copycats to me.

Not saying I agree or disagree with you but is the bolded part really a bad thing?

Maybe it's good maybe it's not. I was just comparing styles. We all know LeBron is nowhere near Jordan and Wiggins will find it very difficult to be the next Pippin. Who knows if they would have been good enough to even resemble MJ and Pippin? Too bad we'll never find out

[alexlgnd]

Yeah I agree. We can basically point to anybody and say they are the cause of the hold back because basically everybody has sucked. Milicic, Barea, Ridnour, Gelabale, Derrick Williams, DHam, Rubio, Wes Johnson, its just like pulling names out of a hat.

I disagree with this story's idea of how Cavs should have tried to be the new thing in basketball. I don't see how Wiggins + LeBron duo is anything new, seems like MJ and Pippen copycats to me.

Not saying I agree or disagree with you but is the bolded part really a bad thing?

Maybe it's good maybe it's not. I was just comparing styles. We all know LeBron is nowhere near Jordan and Wiggins will find it very difficult to be the next Pippin. Who knows if they would have been good enough to even resemble MJ and Pippin? Too bad we'll never find out

I do believe wiggins will play better than a hobbit.

[Dewey]

Really interesting article. Thanks for posting it.
Amazing stat. "In six years you won’t find ONE perimeter oriented player who either improved as Love’s teammate or diminished upon leaving the team. Not one."

It will be interesting to see both CLE and MIN.
If MIN somehow manages to win next season 37-40 games then yes, Love is just a very good player who cares about his stats more than he cares about winning.
But i doubt we will win 37+ games, i project without any additional significant moves to win 31-33 games.

Agree for the most part ...

I don't see the article as a +/- type thing because I find it hard to analyze due to varying roles from one team to the next, but the trend is unique. A high level player that seeks leadership will only bode well for a star caliber perimeter player no matter how you slice it. In a nutshell, this info merely supports the trade favors both sides.

I think we were getting close to putting things together had we been able to acquire that one elite SG, and that's why I'm really disappoint Love wouldn't gut it out ... If Lavine can play that combo guard spot at an elite NBA level, it will merely be a day late and dollar short on the Love era. Oh well... I like the mix of athleticism we'll have moving forward.

We are headed for the RAZ (Ricky/Andrew/Zach) era ... buckle up

[Calinks]

Some of those arguments to me are less about Love holding us back and more of a condemnation of the coaching staff as a whole. I have been saying for years now that we seem to have the worst developmental staff in the NBA. Besides a few players who I think would have grown anyway on any team (Pek, Love) very few guys seem to make any significant improvements on out teams and a lot of our players flat out regress.

Rubio has been pretty stagnant, Flynn totally went down hill, Barea has been trash, Martin started good then I don't know what happened, Brewer not as good as Denver, LRAMM, Williams got worse and more timid, Shved, etc.

It's not just Adelmans staff either, we seem to have have had this issue for years with multiple staffs. We never seem to have those players who suddenly have breakout years.

[Note30]

Some of those arguments to me are less about Love holding us back and more of a condemnation of the coaching staff as a whole. I have been saying for years now that we seem to have the worst developmental staff in the NBA. Besides a few players who I think would have grown anyway on any team (Pek, Love) very few guys seem to make any significant improvements on out teams and a lot of our players flat out regress.

Rubio has been pretty stagnant, Flynn totally went down hill, Barea has been trash, Martin started good then I don't know what happened, Brewer not as good as Denver, LRAMM, Williams got worse and more timid, Shved, etc.

It's not just Adelmans staff either, we seem to have have had this issue for years with multiple staffs. We never seem to have those players who suddenly have breakout years.

I think Brewer got better but thats just me. But every other part was true. Now we might actually hit the core of issue here no? It seems that if what you said is true not only has this team not been better, I don't think it will ever be better based on the current trend. In fact if what you're saying is true, then we're in for the biggest bust since Kwame Brown.

[Dewey]

Some of those arguments to me are less about Love holding us back and more of a condemnation of the coaching staff as a whole. I have been saying for years now that we seem to have the worst developmental staff in the NBA. Besides a few players who I think would have grown anyway on any team (Pek, Love) very few guys seem to make any significant improvements on out teams and a lot of our players flat out regress.

Rubio has been pretty stagnant, Flynn totally went down hill, Barea has been trash, Martin started good then I don't know what happened, Brewer not as good as Denver, LRAMM, Williams got worse and more timid, Shved, etc.

It's not just Adelmans staff either, we seem to have have had this issue for years with multiple staffs. We never seem to have those players who suddenly have breakout years.

...ever since flip was canned by ole herman munster we've lacked players with roles they could excel in ... for the pieces Flip had at time we were built to merely try and make the playoffs - only to fall short in multiple times when the horses we had could not raise the bar a notch. Finally got a couple key vets and made a run. I think Rubio can lead this squad and I like that we are positioning ourselves to acquire some players with potentially much higher ceilings ... I firmly believe Flip will put them in positions to excel and build the team more for "playoff" runs. Pek has not gotten much love lately, but with some wings that can play, Pek/Dieng on the block is a unique feature in helping win a playoff series.

[alexlgnd]

Some of those arguments to me are less about Love holding us back and more of a condemnation of the coaching staff as a whole. I have been saying for years now that we seem to have the worst developmental staff in the NBA. Besides a few players who I think would have grown anyway on any team (Pek, Love) very few guys seem to make any significant improvements on out teams and a lot of our players flat out regress.

Rubio has been pretty stagnant, Flynn totally went down hill, Barea has been trash, Martin started good then I don't know what happened, Brewer not as good as Denver, LRAMM, Williams got worse and more timid, Shved, etc.

It's not just Adelmans staff either, we seem to have have had this issue for years with multiple staffs. We never seem to have those players who suddenly have breakout years.

I think Brewer got better but thats just me. But every other part was true. Now we might actually hit the core of issue here no? It seems that if what you said is true not only has this team not been better, I don't think it will ever be better based on the current trend. In fact if what you're saying is true, then we're in for the biggest bust since Kwame Brown.

Ryan Saunders has a good track record of helping guards progress. He was instrumental in just leadership education with Wall, and really helped develop his jumper, I'm looking forward to what he brings to the staff, and what he's able to help with not only Rubio, but LaVine and Wiggins as well. The future looks good. I'm increasingly optimistic, and the highlights alone should be enough to warrant my NBA league pass.