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Fire SMitch thread (Glen agrees, pg 71)

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SMitch fate poll

Fire the clueless baffoon asap before more damage is done
53
41%
Let him stay till summer and find a good replacement
64
50%
The guy has potential, I don't mind him staying long term
8
6%
In Glenn Taylor we trust (fully and unconditionally)
4
3%
 
Total votes: 129

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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#961 » by Domejandro » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:48 am

Klomp wrote:Did I say we're good now? No.

Just because we aren't suddenly a playoff team doesn't mean there aren't improvements being made game to game.

To make sure everyone is on the same page, I was replying to this comment by stating that I have not seen improvement game to game at all, if anything I have seen the contrary (though playing Shabazz finally is a step in the right direction).

EDIT: I just do not understand why people are defending this coach, he has done almost everything incorrectly from every single coaching aspect. It is obvious he will not be fired this season, but that does not make it pointless to continue to criticize his incompetence (at least, anymore pointless than posting on a message board in the first place, haha).
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#962 » by m2002brian » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:49 am

We played good against the Grizz, but honestly, the Cavs played down to us.
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#963 » by King Malta » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:07 am

Domejandro wrote:
Klomp wrote:Did I say we're good now? No.

Just because we aren't suddenly a playoff team doesn't mean there aren't improvements being made game to game.

To make sure everyone is on the same page, I was replying to this comment by stating that I have not seen improvement game to game at all, if anything I have seen the contrary (though playing Shabazz finally is a step in the right direction).

EDIT: I just do not understand why people are defending this coach, he has done almost everything incorrectly from every single coaching aspect. It is obvious he will not be fired this season, but that does not make it pointless to continue to criticize his incompetence (at least, anymore pointless than posting on a message board in the first place, haha).


Ugh. People aren't defending the coach, I have made this point so many times that I don't know why I'm bothering to do it again, but it's not a matter of defending Smitch or saying that he's a good NBA coach, it's being willing to admit that not every single decision he makes while in charge is hopelessly inept or 100% wrong, every soundbite he gives is the stupidest thing ever, every rotation he makes is dumb, or that every win or piece of improvement should be almost wholy attributed to the players and every loss should be almost wholy attributed to the coach. There are multiple reasons as to why we are where we are, and the coach is just a part of that, I honestly believe that there are very, very few coaches who can make this team anymore than maybe 3-4 wins better than what they are at the moment, there are simply too many holes in the roster and too great a lack of experience, but saying that doesn't mean that I don't believe that we COULD be coached better, that the approach towards the playing group from the coach COULD be handled better.

Sam is NOT a good NBA coach, and anyone disagrees with that statement they're more than welcome to say so, but I don't think you'll find many that do. And the fans that don't want him removed immediately don't feel that way because of anything to do with Sam Mitchell, but are questioning the logic of bringing in a new coach now when he won't really be able to change too much from a technical or strategic standpoint, those aren't just opinions people are pulling out of the air either, there's a precedent for that, there aren't many coaches who are sacked and replaced with non-interim coaches mid-season, it just doesn't happen all that often, and there are reasons for it.
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#964 » by urinesane » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:10 am

King Malta wrote:
Domejandro wrote:
Klomp wrote:Did I say we're good now? No.

Just because we aren't suddenly a playoff team doesn't mean there aren't improvements being made game to game.

To make sure everyone is on the same page, I was replying to this comment by stating that I have not seen improvement game to game at all, if anything I have seen the contrary (though playing Shabazz finally is a step in the right direction).

EDIT: I just do not understand why people are defending this coach, he has done almost everything incorrectly from every single coaching aspect. It is obvious he will not be fired this season, but that does not make it pointless to continue to criticize his incompetence (at least, anymore pointless than posting on a message board in the first place, haha).


Ugh. People aren't defending the coach, I have made this point so many times that I don't know why I'm bothering to do it again, but it's not a matter of defending Smitch or saying that he's a good NBA coach, it's being willing to admit that not every single decision he makes while in charge is hopelessly inept or 100% wrong, every soundbite he gives is the stupidest thing ever, every rotation he makes is dumb, or that every win or piece of improvement should be almost wholy attributed to the players and every loss should be almost wholy attributed to the coach. There are multiple reasons as to why we are where we are, and the coach is just a part of that, I honestly believe that there are very, very few coaches who can make this team anymore than maybe 3-4 wins better than what they are at the moment, there are simply too many holes in the roster and too great a lack of experience, but saying that doesn't mean that I don't believe that we COULD be coached better, that the approach towards the playing group from the coach COULD be handled better.

Sam is NOT a good NBA coach, and anyone disagrees with that statement they're more than welcome to say so, but I don't think you'll find many that do. And the fans that don't want him removed immediately don't feel that way because of anything to do with Sam Mitchell, but are questioning the logic of bringing in a new coach now when he won't really be able to change too much from a technical or strategic standpoint, those aren't just opinions people are pulling out of the air either, there's a precedent for that, there aren't many coaches who are sacked and replaced with non-interim coaches mid-season, it just doesn't happen all that often, and there are reasons for it.


Nailed it.

:wordyo:
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#965 » by Domejandro » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:39 am

Fair enough on the rest, but do you really think we would only be 3-4 wins better? I feel we most certainly could be above .500 this season, the amount of games we have squandered is astonishing.
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#966 » by urinesane » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:20 am

Domejandro wrote:Fair enough on the rest, but do you really think we would only be 3-4 wins better? I feel we most certainly could be above .500 this season, the amount of games we have squandered is astonishing.


Aaaaaaand that's why we can't take you seriously.
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#967 » by King Malta » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:23 am

Domejandro wrote:Fair enough on the rest, but do you really think we would only be 3-4 wins better? I feel we most certainly could be above .500 this season, the amount of games we have squandered is astonishing.


I honestly feel there's just too many gaps on this roster man, we've got no proven shooters at all (besides a guy who's having the worst stretch he's had over his entire career) and really lack experience in regards to our better players; we're being carried by two guys no older than 20 :o

I think a different coach could have perhaps had us running a smoother offence and may have (from what's come to light in the last 24 hours) connected with the playing roster better, but I think it would take a special coach (like Pop for example) to have us above .500 at this point.
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#968 » by Merc_Porto » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:26 am

Above .500 is ask for too much, special with this dumb coach that we have.

But look who is in the 8th spot right now in the West, PORTLAND.

With Plumlee, Vonleh and Aminu in the starting lineup. In a "rebuilding year" for them.
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#969 » by Domejandro » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:30 am

urinesane wrote:
Domejandro wrote:Fair enough on the rest, but do you really think we would only be 3-4 wins better? I feel we most certainly could be above .500 this season, the amount of games we have squandered is astonishing.


Aaaaaaand that's why we can't take you seriously.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, that is why your criticisms hold no legitimacy to me. Seriously dude, your coming across as an arrogant prick; even if you are in the right, you almost always come across as unbelievably condescending. The post right below yours I can accept as fair, but I simply glean nothing from your statement other than, "Well, alright?"

And the thing is, if we were 20-26, I would still complain, but I would not be blaming things on Sam Mitchell with such frequency, the way we have dropped off is unbelievably concerning as a fan.
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#970 » by Domejandro » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:39 am

I'll drop that as my last post in this thread. Those that agree, agree, those that disagree, disagree; each disagreement has been hashed out a nauseating amount, I am bored with the thread.
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#971 » by LesGrossman » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:35 pm

Domejandro wrote:I'll drop that as my last post in this thread. Those that agree, agree, those that disagree, disagree; each disagreement has been hashed out a nauseating amount, I am bored with the thread.

I'd suggest to just ignore the guys who resort to trolling, ad hominem attacks and quoting fallacies they only half understand themselves, and argue with those who are actually open and interested. I've solved that by putting a few (not many) people on ignore, gives a lot more pleasure when reading through the board. I'll message you my list if you want.

As for the improvement some guys see. We can split the criticism on SMitch in a few blocks, and see if and where we see change.
1. Rotations: who plays, how long, with whom. Who is held accountable for mistakes, who isnt?
2. Offensive and defensive concepts / schemes / systems: the stuff we want to run
3. in game coaching: Adjustments to the situation, to the matchups, runs, ref influence
4. other stuff: including dealing with players, media etc.

I think we saw some improvement with 1. in that SMitch slowly moves to lineups that people here have seen and demanded from november on. While we can call that improvement, the pace is so slow that i wouldnt want to go through it again. Still i see some favorism, some guys get more time than others, and from a psychological / motivational standpoint i dont feel he puts the same effort into getting everyone going. Pek, for example, would need some positive experiences; he'd need some easy points, some stuff that would work for him. Its obvious that he is questioning himself right now. But he doesnt get anything easy. The idea to play Zach on the 2 with Ricky took forever. The understanding of Bjelica's value came very late. He may well disappear again once KG comes back. Why not try to get him going, too? He is a rookie, just like KAT. Has he not deserved to be protected, and given some room for mistakes and growing? We didnt play to win games so far according to Sam, yet we did not develop our other rookie at all. So, yeah some slight progress but at the same time, so slow and unstable that it wouldnt justify sticking with sam.
2. as for our plays, most of it is the same awful, poorly spaced 90's stuff leading to contested long 2pt attempts with no offensive rebounding. Sam has done a terrible job understanding how this is not a decent offense. When i read we have made improvements, i wonder what games guys watch. Yes we score, but look at the way we do it. While you may have a field day watching Lavine, Wiggins or KAT soar through tough defense to finish with a foul, taht is not something we can credit smitch for! His offense does never, NEVER!!!! lead to easy scoring. Everything is tough, or based on talent of Ricky, or the other guys. Compare taht to a modern, flowing offense with swift passing and quick cuts, with great spacing where everyone knows their role, and positions, and you can swap players in and out without giving up much because everyone is able to do the same basic things that make the offense work; you cant really say we made the slightest step in taht direction at all.

One thing he has altered in recent games is more focus on the fast break and early offense before the defense is set up. That, also, has been recognized weeks ago here but from the way the players run the break its obvious it hasnt been done a lot in practise (no lanes, its not even clear wether they want to run a modern sideline push or ball center; that break vs. OKC with Ricky AND both bigs running in the middle lane was the worst i've seen in a while). The pnr defense seems to be well established in theory, but fails quite often because players fall asleep and fail to help the helper and recover, not forcing multiple rotations but giving up an easy uncontested layup on the second pass. But, as siad before, you can SEE that on single posessions they play and rotate very very good which is the result of practising it intensely. So, if SMitch can be blamed for one thing regarding the defense, its not holding weak defenders accountable (dont allow reaching instead of moving your feet, and forcing everyone to box their guy out). Looking at all four phases of the game, i see also very slow improvement here.
3. In game coaching: terrible. He has no feel for when to take a time out and interrupt the run, he does not draw up plays that lead to seasy scoring, even though he'd just have to "copy/paste". All he does is draw up iso's and thats not appropriate for this league. Cant be excused with "hey, but i'm just teaching, not really coaching" imho.
4. What goes around comes around. You talk about your players in public you will get responses. He still doesnt feel like he does anything wrong, and its getting quite obvious he argues to keep his job. He often talks like he has been everywhere and seem everything, and he can hang with the best of coaches, while he suffers from painful lack of talent on his roster.

Finally, people keep talking about why it makes sense to keep him until the end of the season. I wonder which of these arguments arent applicable for the Rockets and the Cavs, who nontheless came to the conclusion that finishing it is still the less expensive option. The question is, does it make sense to let him waste more time and do more damage? I'd say, once the ownership situation is settled, a plan should be made and the new coach should some how be involved as soon as possible.
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#972 » by Worm Guts » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:07 pm

Finally, people keep talking about why it makes sense to keep him until the end of the season. I wonder which of these arguments arent applicable for the Rockets and the Cavs, who nontheless came to the conclusion that finishing it is still the less expensive option. The question is, does it make sense to let him waste more time and do more damage? I'd say, once the ownership situation is settled, a plan should be made and the new coach should some how be involved as soon as possible


Like I've said before, replacing an interim coach with another interim coach is rare (maybe even unprecedented), and even if you did, who do you replace him with? The two teams you listed went with assistant coaches. Next in line by my guess would be Sidney Lowe, who I don't people here would like any better. Maybe Ryan Saunders, but I don't know if he's even 30 yet. He could be in completely over his head.
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#973 » by LesGrossman » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:11 pm

Worm Guts wrote:
Finally, people keep talking about why it makes sense to keep him until the end of the season. I wonder which of these arguments arent applicable for the Rockets and the Cavs, who nontheless came to the conclusion that finishing it is still the less expensive option. The question is, does it make sense to let him waste more time and do more damage? I'd say, once the ownership situation is settled, a plan should be made and the new coach should some how be involved as soon as possible


Like I've said before, replacing an interim coach with another interim coach is rare (maybe even unprecedented), and even if you did, who do you replace him with? The two teams you listed went with assistant coaches. Next in line by my guess would be Sidney Lowe, who I don't people here would like any better. Maybe Ryan Saunders, but I don't know if he's even 30 yet. He could be in completely over his head.

No, i have no reason to believe any of those guys would do a better job. What i mean is, once the owner thing is settled then next steps may be choosing PBO and then the new coach; and if they get into talks with someone like Thibs or Blatt, or basically anyone else, they shouldnt wait to bring the guy in regardless of the label they put to his name. Assistant or whatever. I agree that Sam is not bad enough to be replaced by another guy whose skills are an unknown.
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#974 » by Nitroglycerin » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:47 pm

Kaplan will have a say to the hiring. Taylor will want a proper coaching search (probably feels Flip did it half heartedly because he wanted himself to coach). Just be patient and let them do their jobs
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#975 » by Tirion » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:50 am

King Malta wrote:Sam is NOT a good NBA coach, and anyone disagrees with that statement they're more than welcome to say so, but I don't think you'll find many that do. And the fans that don't want him removed immediately don't feel that way because of anything to do with Sam Mitchell, but are questioning the logic of bringing in a new coach now when he won't really be able to change too much from a technical or strategic standpoint, those aren't just opinions people are pulling out of the air either, there's a precedent for that, there aren't many coaches who are sacked and replaced with non-interim coaches mid-season, it just doesn't happen all that often, and there are reasons for it.


I think he's not a bad NBA coach. I also think there are different aspects to a coaching job, which are prioritized during different stages of a NBA franchise. Player development, running a system, in-game management, team chemistry, etc. I think Sam is fine as a development coach. All of the young guys have progressed except Payne. You may think that this is a natural curve for talented players, but years of watching Wolves draftees falter and regress have taught me otherwise.
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#976 » by Tirion » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:00 am

https://soundcloud.com/malepatternmedia/you-betcha-basketball-w-jon

Jon K's podcast about the coaching situation and his recent article.
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#977 » by packforfreedom » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:39 am

haven't found this article here

But nearly half the roster of 15 players privately expressed concerns to The Associated Press about Mitchell that centered on three basic tenets: His outdated offensive system, his tendency to platoon his rotations and a lack of personal accountability for the struggles. The players spoke on condition of anonymity because they did not want to publicly criticize their head coach.

http://www.startribune.com/old-school-wolves-coach-tries-to-reach-a-new-school-roster/366628531/

this is actually a big deal.
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#978 » by Crazy-Canuck » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:27 am

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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#979 » by LesGrossman » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:33 pm

Crazy-Canuck wrote:https://soundcloud.com/malepatternmedia/you-betcha-basketball-w-jon

Most has been written all over this board before. Interesting evaluation of potential replacement coaches tho. When he talked about how the new coach should be i thought he pretty much drew up Mike D'Antoni. Name didnt fall tho
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Re: Fire SMitch thread 

Post#980 » by guest81 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:19 pm

Nitroglycerin wrote:Kaplan will have a say to the hiring. Taylor will want a proper coaching search (probably feels Flip did it half heartedly because he wanted himself to coach). Just be patient and let them do their jobs


Based on what? Taylor's never done a proper search in his entire run. He's pretty much done the complete opposite

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