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Denver Nuggets @ Minnesota Wolves

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Post#221 » by Merc_Porto » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:28 am

Zeitgeister wrote:
mercgold3 wrote:
Zeitgeister wrote:So you use the numbers when looking at defense but ignore the numbers when looking at offense? Sounds like you're cherry picking the stats that you like and dislike based on your pre-established opinions. At the very least, until recently Zach has clearly been the best offensive player on our team, and FAR better than Wiggins that is a fact.

Still rather have the diference on defense between Zach and Andrew than the offense difference between this two. I'm cherry picking ? What about the fact that you didn't even mention that Towns is the best offensive player in his position in the entire league ?


Yeah this discussion is pretty aimless and nonsensical. LOL I'm not really sure how many times I need to explain to you that Karl Anthony-Towns might be the best offensive player on the Wolves now. It's obvious that you'll just continue to ignore it because otherwise you wouldn't bring up a point about Towns and his offense.

I see. You compared Towns for being the worst defender in his position, Wiggins second worst in his position only to make a point that Lavine isn't that bad as defender. But at same time you forgot to bring the numbers, and the numbers are saying that even with Towns being the worst in his position , wich is not good at all, and Wiggins being the 2nd worst in his position, the both are not nearly as bad as Lavine is. And Karl Anthony-Towns might be the best offensive player on the Wolves now is not a doubt. He's the best or top-3 at least in the league at his position.
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Re: Denver Nuggets @ Minnesota Wolves 

Post#222 » by Tensten » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:08 pm

Very important win over Denver with very ugly game. Lot of individual skills vs Denver great passing game. Luckily Towns and Wiggins came up huge in last stretch. Great game also from Shabazz. Luckily we didn't get punished for all the missed FTs at the end.

Honestly no idea why it took Thibs 36 minutes to understand Zach is not having good game and to put better defensive player instead. It was no brainer already in third quarter. Yet still we play this poor defensive line-up and almost lost game thanks to it. Belly, Zach, Wiggins and Tyus all together on floor is one bad defensive team.

And those bad shots at start of 4th quarter. Those wild 10 seconds long possesions by Zach, Wiggins and Tyus were just so frustating. Why to start hero balling when there is still 8 minutes to go in game.

KAT on beast stretch at the moment. Playing little bit more like last year when he worked his game from inside to out and not the other way.
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Re: Denver Nuggets @ Minnesota Wolves 

Post#223 » by packforfreedom » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:07 pm

I was sure, that we'd still lose this game until I saw, that Gallo inbounded the ball. great win. Bazz is back! Zach had a very bad game and therefore got benched in crunch time. no big deal. he'll have very good games, but unfortunatly that won't change the narrative that he's the reason for everything bad, that happens on the court. but it's great to see, that Thibs is committed to make our big three work, and i'm sure he certainly will. btw Thibs: it funny how the scapegoating shifted away from him lately.
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Re: Denver Nuggets @ Minnesota Wolves 

Post#224 » by breatnach » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:50 pm

packforfreedom wrote:btw Thibs: it funny how the scapegoating shifted away from him lately.


Scapegoating is much harder when we start winning :wink: I'm still not very happy with his rotations (specifically Rush) though.
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Re: Denver Nuggets @ Minnesota Wolves 

Post#225 » by Dewey » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:06 pm

Opinion: Dunn and Jones played pretty well as a duo ...

Fact: Lavine is in a funk.

Mind boggler: Bazz played aggressive defense. It's like he suddenly see's an opportunity to either start at SF and/or play himself into a trade.

Didnt see us coming back, but most importantly, Dunn and Jones didnt blonk an eye in the process. Jones has always hit shots in big moments. Dunns defense was pretty elite at times.
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Post#226 » by TheProdigy » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:25 pm

mercgold3 wrote:
Zeitgeister wrote:
mercgold3 wrote:Still rather have the diference on defense between Zach and Andrew than the offense difference between this two. I'm cherry picking ? What about the fact that you didn't even mention that Towns is the best offensive player in his position in the entire league ?


Yeah this discussion is pretty aimless and nonsensical. LOL I'm not really sure how many times I need to explain to you that Karl Anthony-Towns might be the best offensive player on the Wolves now. It's obvious that you'll just continue to ignore it because otherwise you wouldn't bring up a point about Towns and his offense.

I see. You compared Towns for being the worst defender in his position, Wiggins second worst in his position only to make a point that Lavine isn't that bad as defender. But at same time you forgot to bring the numbers, and the numbers are saying that even with Towns being the worst in his position , wich is not good at all, and Wiggins being the 2nd worst in his position, the both are not nearly as bad as Lavine is. And Karl Anthony-Towns might be the best offensive player on the Wolves now is not a doubt. He's the best or top-3 at least in the league at his position.

I don't think Z is trying to say that LaVine isn't as bad of a defender as Wiggins or Towns. He was just referencing the same statistic you used as evidence for why LaVine should be brought off the bench. In reality, all 3 of our top players are well below average on defense. But yet you choose LaVine as the primary reason for why we're not winning.

Lets just assume that Thibs went along with your idea to bring him off the bench because Wiggins should be a shooting guard. So then Wiggins gets 36 minutes at shooting guard, and LaVine only gets 12 minutes of PT? That doesnt make any sense. In order for LaVine to get the appropriate amount of minutes, Wiggins has to play some small forward. If that is the case, then why does it matter who is starting if the minutes are going to be staggered anyways?
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Re: Denver Nuggets @ Minnesota Wolves 

Post#227 » by Quentin » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:58 pm

Anyone else notice that Tyus looked super winded at the end of his playing stints? Wonder if he's not in shape due to all the sitting.
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Re: Denver Nuggets @ Minnesota Wolves 

Post#228 » by GopherIt! » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:03 pm

El Poochio wrote:Guise will Dunn keep his starting place since Rubio is getting kicked out or you are actually looking for a new pg?


No señor, Dunnito will go back to el bencho when Rico returns.
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Post#229 » by Merc_Porto » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:59 pm

DaKidKG wrote:Lets just assume that Thibs went along with your idea to bring him off the bench because Wiggins should be a shooting guard. So then Wiggins gets 36 minutes at shooting guard, and LaVine only gets 12 minutes of PT? That doesnt make any sense. In order for LaVine to get the appropriate amount of minutes, Wiggins has to play some small forward. If that is the case, then why does it matter who is starting if the minutes are going to be staggered anyways?

By now this is far away from being my idea, i'm not the only that is asking for this change. People can argue that we are better with Rubio on the team or without him, the same goes for Bjelica or Rush starting etc etc. But there is one thing that nobody can argue this season. We were always better when we played without Lavine...

Lavine right now, and even before his Injurie was a no factor, his stats don't mean much to win ball games.

And like someone said before, we are betting on Lavine age only, because in 3 years we never saw any improvements on D by Zach.

Unfortunately for us, we have a logjam right now in the SG position and only one can play because when they play together they are the worst combo in the league at D.

Wiggins is the/2nd worst between SFs and Lavine is the 3rd between SGs.

And that is not going to change, they can improve a little bit but IMO that is going to be enough. We need to balance the roster.

And before someone jumps one to say, they are young, they can improve to a decent level, whatever... That is BS

People said the same thing about guys like K.Love, Kanter, now is Okafor, the same goes for R.Jackson, even Mirotic, Valanciunas etc... The players are who they are and there some things you just know when you don't show some flashes of decent D in 2/3 years in the league. And that is the case of Lavine.

Lavine is going to be great, a top scorer in this league at SG playing with a great 3D guy. Perfect example for Lavine is Bradley Beal.
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Post#230 » by Worm Guts » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:25 pm

mercgold3 wrote:
Lavine is going to be great, a top scorer in this league at SG playing with a great 3D guy. Perfect example for Lavine is Bradley Beal.



Beal is a SG (and kind of a short one I believe) and 51st at his position in DRPM. Anyway, I don't know that in a league that increasingly values 3 pointers you want to trade your best 3 point shooter.
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Post#231 » by Merc_Porto » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:28 pm

Worm Guts wrote:
mercgold3 wrote:
Lavine is going to be great, a top scorer in this league at SG playing with a great 3D guy. Perfect example for Lavine is Bradley Beal.



Beal is a SG (and kind of a short one I believe) and 51st at his position in DRPM. Anyway, I don't know that in a league that increasingly values 3 pointers you want to trade your best 3 point shooter.

That is not my point, Bradley Beal is a great example because he has Porter next to him.

Washington is a great example btw.

Take out Porter and put Wiggins on that team and they would be much worse, why ?

Because when you have guys like Zach or Wiggins /or Beal at SG you need a 3D player. Was/is not a suprise at all, that we always look better when only one of this guys are on the floor.
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Post#232 » by TheProdigy » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:50 pm

mercgold3 wrote:
DaKidKG wrote:Lets just assume that Thibs went along with your idea to bring him off the bench because Wiggins should be a shooting guard. So then Wiggins gets 36 minutes at shooting guard, and LaVine only gets 12 minutes of PT? That doesnt make any sense. In order for LaVine to get the appropriate amount of minutes, Wiggins has to play some small forward. If that is the case, then why does it matter who is starting if the minutes are going to be staggered anyways?

By now this is far away from being my idea, i'm not the only that is asking for this change. People can argue that we are better with Rubio on the team or without him, the same goes for Bjelica or Rush starting etc etc. But there is one thing that nobody can argue this season. We were always better when we played without Lavine.

Textbook dodge of the question. Good job. The reason why I'm calling you out on this is because you're the one with the megaphone complaining about LaVine on here 4+ times per day. So again, if you want LaVine to come off the bench, please explain how you expect the minutes to shake out in that scenario.

mercgold3 wrote:Lavine is going to be great, a top scorer in this league at SG playing with a great 3D guy. Perfect example for Lavine is Bradley Beal.

If you think LaVine is going to be so good, why would you ever want to bring him off the bench? Why not let him and the rest of the kids learn from their mistakes and grow?
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Post#233 » by Merc_Porto » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:58 pm

DaKidKG wrote:Textbook dodge of the question. Good job. The reason why I'm calling you out on this is because you're the one with the megaphone complaining about LaVine on here 4+ times per day. So again, if you want LaVine to come off the bench, please explain how you expect the minutes to shake out in that scenario.

mercgold3 wrote:Lavine is going to be great, a top scorer in this league at SG playing with a great 3D guy. Perfect example for Lavine is Bradley Beal.

If you think LaVine is going to be so good, why would you ever want to bring him off the bench? Why not let him and the rest of the kids learn from their mistakes and grow?


To answer both questions, first i would look to trade Lavine while his value is high.
But meanwhile i want Lavine coming off the bench because there is a guy called Andrew Wiggins ahead of him that plays the same position.

I already explained my reasons of why they cant play together IMO, not now, or ever.
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Post#234 » by FargoWolf » Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:37 pm

Zeitgeister wrote:
mercgold3 wrote:
Nick K wrote:
I thought Zack was to blame. You mean KAT and Wiggins are worse than Zack?

You know what is funny, Wiggins out of his natural position and defending stronger and in most nights, the best player of the opponent team is still enough to be better than Lavine at 2 as defender.

But of couse he didn't say anything about that, or even mention those numbers. Nick K, if i'm a hater of Zach, what is Zeitgeister on Wiggins ? I wanna hear your opinion about that...

And do that formula again about Zach perfomance last night:
4 pts - +30 pts? = -25-30 ?

Not again.


Probably because I've addressed this several times in the recent past already. You keep talking about how terrible of a defender Zach is while ignoring Wiggins or Towns for that matter.

The argument that he's not at his natural position has always been a cop out argument. Wiggins is no more undersized at the 3 than LaVine is at the 2. Wiggins also doesn't defend the best player on the opponent team most nights either. If its a point guard, he's rarely defending them. If it's a big man, he's not defending them. If it's a SG or SF then he defends them but other times there isn't a significant different in talent between the SG and SF as well. Whatever advantage Wiggins may have defensively (it's minimal at best) LaVine far outpaces him offensively.


Wiggins defends the best player a lot. Obviously you have the SF's like Butler, Lebron, KD, PG13 etc but when we play Harden, Andrew spends a lot of time defending him. Even against Russ, Thibs moved Wiggins on him for a while. Andrew often has a much tougher defensive assignment then Zach, there is a reason for that and that is because he is a better defender.

I like Zach a lot, I don't think he should be traded unless it is a slam dunk type of deal and I also don't think he should be benched. I do think Thibs should give him a quicker hook if he is struggling like last night but that could also apply to Wiggins at times as well. Sometimes a younger player needs to observe from the bench.
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Post#235 » by TheProdigy » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:29 pm

mercgold3 wrote:
DaKidKG wrote:Textbook dodge of the question. Good job. The reason why I'm calling you out on this is because you're the one with the megaphone complaining about LaVine on here 4+ times per day. So again, if you want LaVine to come off the bench, please explain how you expect the minutes to shake out in that scenario.

mercgold3 wrote:Lavine is going to be great, a top scorer in this league at SG playing with a great 3D guy. Perfect example for Lavine is Bradley Beal.

If you think LaVine is going to be so good, why would you ever want to bring him off the bench? Why not let him and the rest of the kids learn from their mistakes and grow?


To answer both questions, first i would look to trade Lavine while his value is high.
But meanwhile i want Lavine coming off the bench because there is a guy called Andrew Wiggins ahead of him that plays the same position.

I already explained my reasons of why they cant play together IMO, not now, or ever.

You are still dodging the 1st question. Maybe this will help, please fill in the blanks:
SF: ______
SG: ______

Example:
SF: Wiggins 24 min, Bazz 24 min
SG: LaVine 36 min, Wiggins 12 min
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Re: Denver Nuggets @ Minnesota Wolves 

Post#236 » by Merc_Porto » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:46 pm

SF - Rush (18) Shabazz (18) Wiggins (12)
SG - Wiggins (22) Lavine (26)

- Is Thibs, this would never happend.

But who cares ?
We should trade Lavine was always my point.
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Re: Denver Nuggets @ Minnesota Wolves 

Post#237 » by rugbyrugger23 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:01 am

mercgold3 wrote:SF - Rush (18) Shabazz (18) Wiggins (12)
SG - Wiggins (22) Lavine (26)

- Is Thibs, this would never happend.

But who cares ?
We should trade Lavine was always my point.

It doesn't have to come to that, LaVine benched and so little minutes. As for rotations, first thing first, Thibs needs a defensive wing coming off bench, not Bazz or Bjelica. Trade Rubio and/or Bazz and/or 2017 1st--for right player only.
C: Towns
F: Dieng...ideally a better defensive big and Dieng to bench.
F: Wiggins
G: LaVine
G: Dunn

6-4 Minute Mark Sub:
C: Towns
F: Dieng
F: D Specialist
G: Wiggins
G: Dunn

Quarter Break:
C: Aldrich
F: Bjelica
F: D Specialist
G: LaVine
G: Jones...could come in 2 mins to go before qtr break for few more minutes PT.

6-4 Minute Sub:
Starters back in. But Thibs should always reserve right to play hot hand down stretch, and Sub situational come last 2 minutes.

Thibs use this rotation, and LaVine and Wiggins get 24ish minutes total (66% of their minutes) without the other, and with a D specialist.

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