Could Gomes go to Cle?

[karch34]

Shrink, I think you make some valid points. I guess I look at it as while a 1st round pick, even a late one is valuable, but I feel at some point you have to start acquiring proven talent as well. A move like you discussed doesn't hurt us though.

Deeney0, I think we'll just agree to disagree on the value of Gomes. He was a 12 and 6 player last year and I don't think 14 and 8 is out of the question as he had some monster games last year playing out of position most of the time. Plus he's a decent shooter and good defender. I've seen a lot worse sign for the MLE, so while I'd like to get him for less I don't think that's going to be a hard to move contract. I can understand for a rebuilding team that might be too much salary and that for a contender needing another piece it might be a more prudent investment.

[Klomp]

Deeney0, I think we'll just agree to disagree on the value of Gomes. He was a 12 and 6 player last year and I don't think 14 and 8 is out of the question as he had some monster games last year playing out of position most of the time. Plus he's a decent shooter and good defender. I've seen a lot worse sign for the MLE, so while I'd like to get him for less I don't think that's going to be a hard to move contract. I can understand for a rebuilding team that might be too much salary and that for a contender needing another piece it might be a more prudent investment.

So was Luke Walton when he got his MLE contract. Then he followed it up with 7/4 the next year. Solid, but not worth a 4+ mil contract until 2012/13.

[karch34]

Deeney0, I think we'll just agree to disagree on the value of Gomes. He was a 12 and 6 player last year and I don't think 14 and 8 is out of the question as he had some monster games last year playing out of position most of the time. Plus he's a decent shooter and good defender. I've seen a lot worse sign for the MLE, so while I'd like to get him for less I don't think that's going to be a hard to move contract. I can understand for a rebuilding team that might be too much salary and that for a contender needing another piece it might be a more prudent investment.

So was Luke Walton when he got his MLE contract. Then he followed it up with 7/4 the next year. Solid, but not worth a 4+ mil contract until 2012/13.

I'll have to check that out. I don't remember Walton ever doing anything that warranted a decent contract.

[shrink]

Its kind of depressing to me to admit that two of my favorite players might be better off on someone else's team.

[Devilzsidewalk]

Boston should offer him an MLE deal or close to it.

[C.lupus]

Its kind of depressing to me to admit that two of my favorite players might be better off on someone else's team.

I'm with you there. Gomes was the asset I was second most excited about with the Boston trade. I really like him. With the addition of Love and Miller, however, I am struggling to see where he would fit in the lineup.

[GopherIt!]

the Hypnotoad keeps staring at me...

[casey]

Boston should offer him an MLE deal or close to it.

Yes, they should.

[colincb]

- You'd be nuts to get rid of Gomes for some of these deals you're talking about. I averaged out his 36 minutes and total efficiency rating after the all-star break and he was 36th (of 177) in the NBA among ALL forwards and was sandwiched between Richard Jefferson, Jamario Moon, Loul Deng, and Josh Howard. There are plenty of forwards beneath him getting the MLE or more. Efficiency captures all common stats, but can't capture unmeasurables such as defense, intangibles (e.g., tips), or character. Have to think he's average in the first and well above in the latter 2.

- Delonte West's rated 50th for the same period among guards. His defense, intangibles, and character are average IMO. He is also very injury prone so far in his career. Cavs can't trade him anyhow as they have no replacement at PG though West is a combo guard who is much better at the 2 than the 1. He's also easily defended as he can't go right and is as one-handed a player as I've ever seen.

- Brewer and Carney are borderline busts. Brewer is not tearing up the VSL despite being in his second year. Not a good sign. Gomes BTW was 1st team VSL for both his rookie and 2nd year according to Draft Express.

- Celtics can offer the MLE to Gomes, but i don't see Ainge doing that to McHale without Mchale signalling that the TW won't sign him after some one else bids for him. The celtics can use him, but have nothing to trade otherwise from their bench unless you want Leon Powe or Big Baby Davis.

- Gomes would be a great fit for the Lakers backing up Odom and Gasol, but they want to stay under the Luxtax and are burdened by overpaid bench players. He'd be an upgrade to any of them.

- Cavs could take him if they want the Luxtax or can trade for him. He'd get his minutes as LBJ can play anywhere except center in a half court game.

- There's not many, if any teams that Gomes couldn't get 28-30 mpg on except the TWs according to what I read in the various TW boards. Unfortunately for Gomes, RFAs usually end up signing for their same team because teams are reluctant to bid up a player they think will be matched. If that's the case, look for a shorter deal so he can become a UFA sooner.

- Nonetheless, a starting 4 of Miller, Gomes, Jefferson, and Love is pretty sweet. Not a great defensive tandem, but you can get some of that off the bench.

- Doesn't the Memphis deal look like a steal after 3 days in the VSL? Yes it's the VSL, but there is no summer league that is a big man's league because the guards aren't looking to pass. If you can't do well in the VSL you can't do well in the NBA - see Corey Brewer.

- Anyway, I've been very impressed by Love so far. He's one of the best passing NBA big men I've seen over the last 40 years. The pass to Richards last night was an eye opener and VSL play of the day IMO.

[shrink]

Shrink, I think you make some valid points. I guess I look at it as while a 1st round pick, even a late one is valuable, but I feel at some point you have to start acquiring proven talent as well. A move like you discussed doesn't hurt us though.

My thinking is that as the trade deadline rolls around, some of the teams are going to be going nowhere, and ready to trade a star to start the rebuilding. We've got cap relief we can offer, like other teams. However, we also have the benefit that we can say "How many 2009 1sts would you like with the cap space?"

What I'd like to do is to use whatever we have and turn it into bits of future incentive, which we can dole out for talent down the road. In the meantime, we try not to lose opportunities to add to the goodie bag.

[shrink]

Boston should offer him an MLE deal or close to it.

Yes, they should.

I disagree. Gomes may be worth $5 mil to them, but I don't know if he's worth $10 mil. They'd be better off trying to trade for him financially. And even if you argue that they didn't care about the money, this would still leave THEIR MLE available to pick up another player.

[Hruska Varna]

- You'd be nuts to get rid of Gomes for some of these deals you're talking about. I averaged out his 36 minutes and total efficiency rating after the all-star break and he was 36th (of 177) in the NBA among ALL forwards and was sandwiched between Richard Jefferson, Jamario Moon, Loul Deng, and Josh Howard. There are plenty of forwards beneath him getting the MLE or more. Efficiency captures all common stats, but can't capture unmeasurables such as defense, intangibles (e.g., tips), or character. Have to think he's average in the first and well above in the latter 2.

- Delonte West's rated 50th for the same period among guards. His defense, intangibles, and character are average IMO. He is also very injury prone so far in his career. Cavs can't trade him anyhow as they have no replacement at PG though West is a combo guard who is much better at the 2 than the 1. He's also easily defended as he can't go right and is as one-handed a player as I've ever seen.

- Brewer and Carney are borderline busts. Brewer is not tearing up the VSL despite being in his second year. Not a good sign. Gomes BTW was 1st team VSL for both his rookie and 2nd year according to Draft Express.

- Celtics can offer the MLE to Gomes, but i don't see Ainge doing that to McHale without Mchale signalling that the TW won't sign him after some one else bids for him. The celtics can use him, but have nothing to trade otherwise from their bench unless you want Leon Powe or Big Baby Davis.

- Gomes would be a great fit for the Lakers backing up Odom and Gasol, but they want to stay under the Luxtax and are burdened by overpaid bench players. He'd be an upgrade to any of them.

- Cavs could take him if they want the Luxtax or can trade for him. He'd get his minutes as LBJ can play anywhere except center in a half court game.

- There's not many, if any teams that Gomes couldn't get 28-30 mpg on except the TWs according to what I read in the various TW boards. Unfortunately for Gomes, RFAs usually end up signing for their same team because teams are reluctant to bid up a player they think will be matched. If that's the case, look for a shorter deal so he can become a UFA sooner.

- Nonetheless, a starting 4 of Miller, Gomes, Jefferson, and Love is pretty sweet. Not a great defensive tandem, but you can get some of that off the bench.

- Doesn't the Memphis deal look like a steal after 3 days in the VSL? Yes it's the VSL, but there is no summer league that is a big man's league because the guards aren't looking to pass. If you can't do well in the VSL you can't do well in the NBA - see Corey Brewer.

- Anyway, I've been very impressed by Love so far. He's one of the best passing NBA big men I've seen over the last 40 years. The pass to Richards last night was an eye opener and VSL play of the day IMO.

To quote the scene from "When Harry met Sally" - I'll have whatever this person is having, please.

Great analysis. Check. Agree. Sure. OK. Got it. Enough said.

Gomes was the second best Wolves player last year. That is real, on-the-court production player. Not "he's a great athlete" or "his ceiling is higher" player. And people don't think he can contribute? Or want to give him up for Eric Snow and a 2012 pick?

The draft day trade is looking better and better and better - in fact improving exponentially each time I see Love play. He can flat out play the game - and he will be a pleasure to watch - if you like the game as it should and can be played.

[Shrunk]

Boston should offer him an MLE deal or close to it.

Yes, they should.

I disagree. Gomes may be worth $5 mil to them, but I don't know if he's worth $10 mil. They'd be better off trying to trade for him financially. And even if you argue that they didn't care about the money, this would still leave THEIR MLE available to pick up another player.

I concur

[Klomp]

Great, so now we have a shrink and a Shrunk.

[4ho5ive]

Shrunk? Ahahahaahahahahaahhhahahaha. Welcome aboard, but still, ahahahahahahahahahahaahaha.

I dont agree the Corey Brewer is a bust. This is probably the most overstated thing on this board from mostly outsiders and a few that are regulars. I dont see how you can call anyone in their 2nd year a bust. No, he'll never be a 20ppg scorer. But he does things that dont show up on any stat sheet. His defense has been underrated thus far. He was shooting terribly so everyone expected him to be a lock down defender. In his rookie year? That was an unrealistic expectation. He'll develop the mid range J, his passing skills are above average, he runs the floor and he will give fits to any perimeter player out there within the next few years.

Play him at the 2 with Miller and Love and he will be fine.

[shrink]

Shrunk huh? I think we're going to get along fine. Welcome to the boards.

[deeney0]

Boston should offer him an MLE deal or close to it.

Yes, they should.

I disagree. Gomes may be worth $5 mil to them, but I don't know if he's worth $10 mil. They'd be better off trying to trade for him financially. And even if you argue that they didn't care about the money, this would still leave THEIR MLE available to pick up another player.

It's virtually impossible for Boston to improve via trade. Losing Posey hurts. Boston is still very much in win now mode, they're not going to give up just because they won a 'ship. They'll use some or all of the MLE on someone, and Gomes has got too have a decent shot.

[C.lupus]

Great. First there was Al Harrington/Al Jefferson/Richard Jefferson. Then there was Sergio Rodriguez/ Rudy Fernandez. Then Jason Collins/Jarron Collins. Now we have to deal with Shrink/Shrunk on top of that. I don't know if I can handle it.

[colincb]

- I can't see Brewer as a poor shooting guard in the NBA. He's a 3 in the mode of Bowen, Posey, or Battier at best and they're a rare breed in the NBA. Bowen, undrafted, really didn't play until he was 29 and his career is very much a fluke and Posey was pretty much a 5th starter. They can all shoot the 3 while Brewer has hit less than 20%. Bowen is widely considered to be the dirtiest player in the NBA and Posey would make most top 10 lists, so Brewer better develop a mean streak if he wants to make a living in the NBA like those guys

- As far as stats are concerned for their rookie year, Gomes and Posey had similar stats, followed by Battier and by far the worst, Brewer. Gomes was the best offensive player. followed somewhat by Posey and Battier. Brewer had the worst statistics in 11 of 16 offensive stats. On the defensive side, Posey had the best stats, and the other 3 were in a tight range. Brewer actually had the worst defensive points per 100 possessions. Per 100 offensive and defensive possessions, Gomes and Posey were +4, Battier was -3, and Brewer was an amazing -19. Both Battier and Brewer were lottery picks, Posey was a mid 1st, and Gomes a late 2nd.

- As I said earlier, Celtics really can only buy Gomes. That's a problem for Ainge as Mchale is a friend, part of the Celtics family, and not a GM of a rival team. In a Celtics fan poll this week over 50% thought he was the best available talent for the Celtics out of RFAs in the MLE range.

- If the Celtics liked him enough for the MLE for 1 year, then they'd want him for 3-4 years at the same price. He's been in the NBA 3 years, still has upside, and has not hit his prime years. This isn't like James Posey, who fits better the Celtics defensive schemes, but is very likely do decline in his 3rd and 4th years.

- There's also a possibility for Gomes with the Pistons who apparently have a need at the 3 behind Prince.

[deeney0]

Battier, Posey, and Bowen all spend some time at 2, too. The SG/SF distinction isn't a distinct line. It is often more convenient to just refer to them as wings. Pairing a scoring wing like Miller or McCants with a defense-oriented do-everything wing like Brewer is good team design. Who's the 2 and who's the 3 is just an academic question, it doesn't really translate to the court.