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VOTE OR DIE!!!

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Re: VOTE OR DIE!!! 

Post#81 » by Devilzsidewalk » Wed Nov 5, 2008 6:33 pm

RD&KG2 wrote:I think this election showed that ageism has not surpassed racism as one of the biggest problems in our country ;)


and sexism too (Hillary) ;)

seriously though, I think the general key was the way he got across to the masses and is his calm demeanor. McCain, Palin, Hillary - they're all spazzing out and spitting angry about everything and they just look like children with their name-calling and desperate accusations and attacks, and they miscalculated the populous, because most people don't buy into that type of campaigning anymore. Obama and Biden were comparatively cool and collected and always carried an 'in control' atmosphere. Nobody wants a president that acts like a drunk uncle and can't maintain focus, they want a president that stays mentally collected during adversity.
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Re: VOTE OR DIE!!! 

Post#82 » by prefuse73 » Wed Nov 5, 2008 9:05 pm

All valid points. Im glad you guys made your decision based on other factors than just race. All I see around me in Seattle is people calling McCain supporters racist...I am far racist and it really sets me off to be labeled as such.

I think someone said that socialism is a loaded term...and that is true, but to me Socialism means that no matter how hard you work (its not all about the elite and super rich) your efforts, under socialism, become in a sense wasted. What is the point now for me to finish up my masters and get in a bunch a debt, just so I can support the lazy, selfish people that want handouts. I am not looking at this from some elevated position of wealth and status, I am your normal hard working dude that is just trying to do what I can to make a good life. The real price of my debt increases as now I will have to send some of my hard earned money to others that are, lets say, less active in society. Socialism breeds complacency and when our country becomes complacent it will cease to innovate or have the incentive to go beyond the status quo. I think we will become a weaker and easier to control.

I hope he proves me wrong. Again, I appreciate it that you all seem to have chose based on intelligent factors and not just what is fed to you.

Okay...Im ready to re-focus on the wolves. Foye needs to seriously show me something today.
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Re: VOTE OR DIE!!! 

Post#83 » by Devilzsidewalk » Wed Nov 5, 2008 9:36 pm

prefuse73 wrote:
Okay...Im ready to re-focus on the wolves. Foye needs to seriously show me something today.


Good idea. I think I'm all electioned out too.
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Re: VOTE OR DIE!!! 

Post#84 » by funkatron101 » Wed Nov 5, 2008 9:39 pm

prefuse73 wrote:All valid points. Im glad you guys made your decision based on other factors than just race. All I see around me in Seattle is people calling McCain supporters racist...I am far racist and it really sets me off to be labeled as such.
Don't let stupid people dictate how you perceive everyone.

prefuse73 wrote:I think someone said that socialism is a loaded term...and that is true, but to me Socialism means that no matter how hard you work (its not all about the elite and super rich) your efforts, under socialism, become in a sense wasted. What is the point now for me to finish up my masters and get in a bunch a debt, just so I can support the lazy, selfish people that want handouts. I am not looking at this from some elevated position of wealth and status, I am your normal hard working dude that is just trying to do what I can to make a good life. The real price of my debt increases as now I will have to send some of my hard earned money to others that are, lets say, less active in society. Socialism breeds complacency and when our country becomes complacent it will cease to innovate or have the incentive to go beyond the status quo. I think we will become a weaker and easier to control.
Denmark, a socialist country, was rated as the happiest people on earth according to a recent study. Socialism isn't the problem, the attitude that this country has is. We are a society of entitlement. The "me first" nation. This creates the lazy people milking the system, and the greedy people hoarding their money. Until we truly adopt the attitude of looking out for each other AND individual accountability, we will continue to be a "me first" nation.

Make no mistake about it, with Obama in office we will not be a socialist nation. Far from it. This is just a scare tactic. We will have some socialistic programs, just as we always have, but capitalism will still be the driving force.

prefuse73 wrote:I hope he proves me wrong. Again, I appreciate it that you all seem to have chose based on intelligent factors and not just what is fed to you.

He likely won't prove you wrong. The naysayers have made up their minds, and drawn their party line in the sand. Obama will be scrutinized at every turn by the right, salivating at the chance to say "I told you so" instead of looking at the situation at hand and realizing that both sides will have to work together to turn this around.
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Re: VOTE OR DIE!!! 

Post#85 » by Basti » Wed Nov 5, 2008 9:40 pm

prefuse73 wrote: What is the point now for me to finish up my masters and get in a bunch a debt, just so I can support the lazy, selfish people that want handouts. I am not looking at this from some elevated position of wealth and status, I am your normal hard working dude that is just trying to do what I can to make a good life. The real price of my debt increases as now I will have to send some of my hard earned money to others that are, lets say, less active in society. Socialism breeds complacency and when our country becomes complacent it will cease to innovate or have the incentive to go beyond the status quo. I think we will become a weaker and easier to control.


the socialism my parents and grand parents grew up with gave the people tons of security though. there was basically no unemployment, health care was at its best, the education system (though it was heavily biased) was among the world elite, there was no distinction between men and women in terms of salary etc.

then again I highly doubt socialism in the form that Europe used to have will be implemented in America.
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Re: VOTE OR DIE!!! 

Post#86 » by shrink » Wed Nov 5, 2008 10:41 pm

funkatron101 wrote: The naysayers have made up their minds, and drawn their party line in the sand. Obama will be scrutinized at every turn by the right, salivating at the chance to say "I told you so" instead of looking at the situation at hand and realizing that both sides will have to work together to turn this around.


Agreed. Same thing we got the last four years and more.
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Re: VOTE OR DIE!!! 

Post#87 » by C.lupus » Thu Nov 6, 2008 1:13 am

I'm late chiming in here 'cause I've had a whirlwind election tour.

Got up yesterday and voted:
For Obama :D
Against Coleman :-? (can't stand the man)
For the environmental amendment :D

Then drove down to Minneapolis for the Bob Dylan concert at Northrup Auditorium. His first concert at UM since he was a student there! Dylan rocked!! As he started his encore, he said "looks like change is coming" (or something lke that) and the place erupted. He finished right as the race was being called.

There was a giant screen set up in the lobby with CNN and as everyone was filing out, they put up 297 electoral votes for Obama and everyone went wild, screaming. An impromptu party started on the plaza outside Northrup with a couple thousand people. Someone was playing drums and everyone was dancing and yelling "OBAMA" and "USA". It was really exciting and refreshing to see everyone, young and old alike, happy and celebrating. Not to sound too cheesy but I really felt like I was part of something historic.

We stayed up till about 12:30 (very late for me) watching the results. I then got up and drove 5 hours to work for a meeting, then drove home and, here I am.

I know shrink and others won't agree with this but I honestly feel hopeful, positive, and energized about America for the first time in a long time (and no, it's not because of his hype or celebrity; it's because of his message and his plan and his ability to get this country back together).
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Re: VOTE OR DIE!!! 

Post#88 » by shrink » Thu Nov 6, 2008 1:23 am

C.lupus wrote: I know shrink and others won't agree with this but I honestly feel hopeful, positive, and energized about America for the first time in a long time (and no, it's not because of his hype or celebrity; it's because of his message and his plan and his ability to get this country back together).


I just don't see it. I don't see how he ends partisanship when he's been entirely partisan his whole life. What issues would he concede on with the republicans? Its not like the republicans are any better -- they won't concede either. I'm against partisanship, and I want qualified candidates, so I'm not hopeful.

However, just to give prefuse a little hope here, do you remember what happened when the youth of the country bought into another "slick"-talking promise guy, who trumpeted big welfare, soak the rich, and national health care? In two years, it led to a massive republican victories in both the House and Senate, and changed his presidency for the next four years.

I think even if you like one party or another, there's still cause for hope out there.
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Re: VOTE OR DIE!!! 

Post#89 » by casey » Thu Nov 6, 2008 1:43 am

Devilzsidewalk wrote:standard for certain types of people

Like those still breathing? Don't ya think Obama's 7 trillion person crowd would've booed if McCain had won?
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Re: VOTE OR DIE!!! 

Post#90 » by Basti » Thu Nov 6, 2008 2:17 am

funkatron101 wrote:
prefuse73 wrote:I think someone said that socialism is a loaded term...and that is true, but to me Socialism means that no matter how hard you work (its not all about the elite and super rich) your efforts, under socialism, become in a sense wasted. What is the point now for me to finish up my masters and get in a bunch a debt, just so I can support the lazy, selfish people that want handouts. I am not looking at this from some elevated position of wealth and status, I am your normal hard working dude that is just trying to do what I can to make a good life. The real price of my debt increases as now I will have to send some of my hard earned money to others that are, lets say, less active in society. Socialism breeds complacency and when our country becomes complacent it will cease to innovate or have the incentive to go beyond the status quo. I think we will become a weaker and easier to control.

Denmark, a socialist country, was rated as the happiest people on earth according to a recent study. Socialism isn't the problem, the attitude that this country has is. We are a society of entitlement. The "me first" nation. This creates the lazy people milking the system, and the greedy people hoarding their money. Until we truly adopt the attitude of looking out for each other AND individual accountability, we will continue to be a "me first" nation.


Denmark is by no means a socialist country - at least not to the european standards but maybe to the american standard. Denmark actually has a very very liberal labour policy.

I see your point though. probably all scandinavien countries are considered socialist countries for americans (and to a certain degree they are right) but compared to the socialism my parents and their families grew up it is almost capitalism at its best. it's just the scandinavien mentality which makes it look like it were socialistic. there is an inofficial law deeply anchored in their mentality which says "you are not better than me" or maybe I should word it better: "you are not rather entitled to do X than I am" which basically sums it up. but to me it is not socialism... but maybe I only have a skewed perception of socialism
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Re: VOTE OR DIE!!! 

Post#91 » by the_bruce » Thu Nov 6, 2008 2:22 am

My main problem in politics is spending money on **** that reaps no benefit. Like the war in Iraq. I'm very liberal socially, and fairly conservative fiscally. If the republicans actually delivered part of their promise of "smaller" gov, less spending they might get my vote. Also, I view a large portion of the party as mean spirited children and the dems too.

Take mortgage meltdown...

Rep. blame it on Dems social objective of trying to get more home ownership for the poor, claiming it was social policies that lead to the meltdown. The fact of the matter there wasn't a problem with these programs before they deregulated and tried to let the rich make money off of it. Both sides were at fault, but the right wing seems so childish and blame based. You can say they want accountability, but there is no criteria for accountability in these sorts of situations just a perception of it.

Social issues should be kept out of politics, but the rep base is way to influenced by it and ruins much of what I agree with the party on. Plus there is so much **** they did the past 8 years I view as completely wrong in terms of domestic and foreign policy.

I actually had an arguement several years ago with my mom about the war in iraq, before it spiralled into the mess it has become. My position was simple if you want to spend billions of dollars on something, make it useful, spend it on newer energy that lessens our reliance on foreign energy. Back then it wasn't slated to be the 700 billion dollar behemoth it has become, but how much traction does that sort of money get us in getting cheaper energy? A ton. Cheaper energy is good. Lessening our involvement in middle east EVEN BETTER. The fact that companies could produce more goods for less cost, THE BEST YET!
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Re: VOTE OR DIE!!! 

Post#92 » by funkatron101 » Thu Nov 6, 2008 11:17 pm

the_incredible_basti wrote:Denmark is by no means a socialist country - at least not to the european standards but maybe to the american standard. Denmark actually has a very very liberal labour policy.

I see your point though. probably all scandinavien countries are considered socialist countries for americans (and to a certain degree they are right) but compared to the socialism my parents and their families grew up it is almost capitalism at its best. it's just the scandinavien mentality which makes it look like it were socialistic. there is an inofficial law deeply anchored in their mentality which says "you are not better than me" or maybe I should word it better: "you are not rather entitled to do X than I am" which basically sums it up. but to me it is not socialism... but maybe I only have a skewed perception of socialism

Many Americans do consider it socialist. It has the highest ranked income equality. A garbage man doesn't make much less than a doctor, yet both generally still have pride for their jobs. Schooling is paid by the govt. They pay a large amount in taxes. But it works for them. For the most part, few people take advantage of or exploit the system. They take what they need, when they need it, and then give back.

Conservative Americans scream "SOCIALISM!" at the very idea of universal healthcare. As if it were a dirty evil word. It's become the new buzz word. This generations "communism."
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Re: VOTE OR DIE!!! 

Post#93 » by Basti » Fri Nov 7, 2008 12:49 am

funkatron101 wrote:
the_incredible_basti wrote:Denmark is by no means a socialist country - at least not to the european standards but maybe to the american standard. Denmark actually has a very very liberal labour policy.

I see your point though. probably all scandinavien countries are considered socialist countries for americans (and to a certain degree they are right) but compared to the socialism my parents and their families grew up it is almost capitalism at its best. it's just the scandinavien mentality which makes it look like it were socialistic. there is an inofficial law deeply anchored in their mentality which says "you are not better than me" or maybe I should word it better: "you are not rather entitled to do X than I am" which basically sums it up. but to me it is not socialism... but maybe I only have a skewed perception of socialism

Many Americans do consider it socialist. It has the highest ranked income equality. A garbage man doesn't make much less than a doctor, yet both generally still have pride for their jobs. Schooling is paid by the govt. They pay a large amount in taxes. But it works for them. For the most part, few people take advantage of or exploit the system. They take what they need, when they need it, and then give back.

Conservative Americans scream "SOCIALISM!" at the very idea of universal healthcare. As if it were a dirty evil word. It's become the new buzz word. This generations "communism."


I see where you are coming from and it also seems pretty logic but you have to consider while looking at your example of garbage men and doctors that the danish health care system actually is pretty bad from what I've heard. it seems to happen quite reguarly that people die if they get a regular surgery.
but the tax part is very true. the value added tax over there is 25% for example and taxes on legal drugs are sky high but it seems like nobody is complaining about it. why? because they have the social security which is payed by these taxes.
but hey you can't compare Denmark or Sweden or Norway with America because in the former countries you have a total of 20 million inhabitants and in America you have 300 million people. it is quite tough to govern so many people. plus in America you only have 2 parties (I mean those with influence) and in Scandinavia you have a big variety in the respective parliaments and the other parties have to adjust.
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Re: VOTE OR DIE!!! 

Post#94 » by SSUBluesman » Sat Nov 8, 2008 5:41 pm

I agree with all that, but I've already seen what happens when a statement vote for Nader happens; a siphoning effect and the worse of the 2 candidates gets elected and things go all to hell.

I'm starting to accept that change has to come slowly. You can't go from Bush to Nader in one fell swoop, there needs to be a bridging politician and a less drastic change or else people will be hiding under their american flag bed covers, weeping and stroking their shotguns for comfort.


1. A third party slowly keeps creeping in and slowly eats away at the control of the system that the duopoly yields. This could be the case with the IP, however not with people like Dillion believing the "spoiler" bull****.
2. The major party (GOP or DEM) runs better candidates and addresses concerns that led to the third party in the first place. This is what has traditionally happened with third party movements that haven't been anchored by an individual figure.

I don't think you COULD go from Bush to Nader in one fell swoop. What would happen, hopefully, is a gradual eating away of the control that the two parties hold. However, this won't happen as long as they get votes under the rubric of "throwing away your vote" or "lesser of two evils". The fact is that the two parties are KILLING the government with their absolute incompetence. Parties don't change due to "new platforms" or "new ideologies", they change when one party does a crap job of running the country. The Democrats have done NOTHING to deserve where they are now, and are there merely because the GOP hung itself (and the country) repeatedly. The same will almost certainly hold true when the GOP gains power again in the future.

I agree, and respect Nader as well, and any politician who honestly believes what he says. He doesn't change his tune depending on who he's talking to.

McCain has consistently been one of the ten most independent senators, voting against party lines. You can check different senates by changing the 106 to other sessions.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/cong ... ty-voters/

Incidentally, this idea about McCain being non-independent now? He was 64th in voting with his party in 2006-08, and 93rd in voting with his party in 2004-06. Obama was 13th and 5th.

I agree McCain has really wanted to be president, but I don't understand how you justify your stance with his near political suicide for stopping the Republican judge nominations with the Gang of 14?


I said he has always been solidly conservative. Given the GOP's large scale massacre of conservatism, him voting with/against the party isn't reflective of my broader point. The idea is that people put him at the center when he's not.

The only thing that resembled suicide in that fiasco were the idiots in the GOP pushing to eliminate the filibuster. It is very, VERY difficult to lose in Congress, particularly with the money and name recognition McCain has.

As far as your point about "getting out the vote", I agree. Everything is about voting, and nothing is about putting any thought into who you are voting for or why you are voting. A lot of it has to do with the schools, but that's an entire topic altogether. Ultimately an uninformed vote is worse than not voting.
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